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  1. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheval convert View Post
    And there are mass murders done in the name of the government - Nazi Germany comes to mind. There were Catholics, called by a higher authority, who hid some of the Jews. This will always comes down to whose perspective and whose authority.

    For the record, here is a quote from the higher authority, "Thou shalt not commit murder". (And actually, I prefer the quote, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." I try to live by that one. I do fail on occassion but it is something that I strive for.) I believe those 2 quotes should cover fears of my becoming a mass murderer.
    lulwut?

    aside that the thread is now doomed...
    what are you saying? You sometimes fail at not being a mass murderer?
    Quote Originally Posted by fargaloo View Post
    Do you not understand how asking "why now?" is EXACTLY part of the reason why assault victims feel silenced?


    2 members found this post helpful.

  2. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by hosspuller View Post
    HL doesn't impose any restrictions... Anybody can do whatever on their own time.

    On the contrary, Gov't is imposing its will on HL and by extension its owners.
    Okay...#1 I am sure that all of his employees will promise to only take the morning after pill on THEIR OWN TIME. Shoot, if it were me, I would go so far as to sign a contract swearing to it.

    And #2...Don't you get a headache from holding two mutually exclusive realities in your head at the same time? How can one entity be allowed to impose it's will on others and the other not? At the same time?
    Sheilah


    4 members found this post helpful.

  3. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by hosspuller View Post
    HL doesn't impose any restrictions... Anybody can do whatever on their own time. HL merely doesn't wish to pay for killing the unborn as defined by HL. On the contrary, Gov't is imposing its will on HL and by extension its owners.
    he might be entitled to his believes, but he is not entitled to his own facts.
    Quote Originally Posted by fargaloo View Post
    Do you not understand how asking "why now?" is EXACTLY part of the reason why assault victims feel silenced?


    3 members found this post helpful.

  4. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheval convert View Post
    I believe those 2 quotes should cover fears of my becoming a mass murderer.
    Is becoming a mass murderer something you spend a lot of time concerned about? Have you spoken to someone about this? Do you have access to any guns? Should someone close to you ask for a "wellness exam"?
    Sheilah


    3 members found this post helpful.

  5. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    But Viagra would be, right?
    Oh oh I know! It's because Viagra can be used to treat other diseases and BC can't! It's not like hormones are used to treat Endometriosis or menstrual pain, acne, menopause... Yep. No other purposes at all.
    The religious right needs to let this one go. Contraceptives are a part of women's health care just like boner meds are for men.
    If Hobby Lobby wants to screw over employees for religious reasons they should file for tax exemption and become a church.
    You are what you dare.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  6. #506
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    Aug. 21, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoRider View Post
    Or that the majority of the American population doesn't think this way. Obama was reelected easily, even with "Obamacare" hanging around his neck. Seems to me that if the majority of folks wanted to see the vision that Mr. Hobby Lobby has for the country enacted, they would have voted for Romney.

    Thankfully the voting public finally opened it's eyes to just how out of step the religious right has pulled conservative politics. Too extreme for mainstream America. Contraception should be banned? "Legitimate rape" can stop a pregnancy in it's tracks? Sandra Fluke is a slut because she thinks women's access to birth control pills is just as important as some dude's access to a really awesome erection? One families religious beliefs should be visited on all their employees, despite the fact that the business in question is a secular one?
    Sheilah
    I never said that I was against birth control. I am against forcing a person of faith, whose faith informs him/her that birth control is sinful, to pay for someone elses birth control. The owner of HL is not saying his employees cannot have access to certain forms of birth control, he is saying that he will not pay for it. He is not forcing his religious beliefs on them nor should the government force it's lack of belief on him.

    The right to the free exercise of your religion is guaranteed in the constituition, the right to healthcare and birth control is not amoung the ennumerated rights.

    And, for the record, I was and am as appalled as you were by the statements being made by "conservatives". It is things such as these that keep me out of the Republican Party and the idea that the government can take away my right to the free exercise of my religion, among other things, that will keep me out of the Democratic Party. I go through my life working hard, being responsible for myself, trying not to hurt others and being generous when I can. I am very saddened at the rifts in this country. Until we can find a wise person to lead us we will continue down a path that will eventually end in financial (and possibly moral) bankruptcy. Unfortunately, neither side of the aisle has given us a candidate who cloaks himself with wisdom. I fear for my country no matter which side is in charge because neither is honest nor honorable. There may be honorable men and women within each party but the parties themselves are corrupt. (I am not going to start citing all of the places where this is true but if you read enough and follow the money enough, you will reach the same, sad conclusion.)

    And so we shall have to agree to disagree. Unfortunately the written word can only convey so much. I suspect that if we knew each other IRL we would get along and just agree to avoid such topics as would cause an argument. Most of my friends are quite liberal and they continue to be my friends in spite of our differences. But then, that is what makes for a civil society.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  7. #507
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoRider View Post
    Well, sure! How much do you want to bet that the female posters who are so busy defending Mr. Hobby Lobby and talking about morality and mortal sin are ALSO of the thought that sex is a burden they have to put up with? A chore of the marital bed, so to speak. No tingly sensations for them! They are on a mission from God!

    And if the posters who are of this mind set happen to be men? I am sure they tell their wives/partners that sex is a chore of reproduction that they must submit to, and that is why they find no pleasure in it. I mean, that is why their wives/partners are finding no pleasure in sex, right? There couldn't be another reason, could there?
    Sheilah
    And there we go with the insult. When you think that you might be losing the argument go for a crass, demeaning statement about people you have never met. And this is why civil discourse in this country is so lacking.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  8. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheval convert View Post
    The Supreme Court disagrees with your analysis. Because a corporation pays taxes, it has certain rights, just as an individual does. A company as large as Hobby Lobby would be foolish to try to make a go of it as a sole proprietor ship but is they went that way, I assume you would then be ok with their stance.
    a corporation does not have a right to enforce the religious belief s of its owners or executives. HL is a private corp but is subject to the same laws as other corporations. Most of these are owned by shareholders who probably have different religious beliefs. CEO's also come and go and their religious beliefs have no bearing on the company's actions.

    The Green family chose to incorporate their business, separating it from their personal affairs and shielding them from liabilities incurred by the corporation. but that means they are subject to the laws other corporations are subject to.
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.


    11 members found this post helpful.

  9. #509
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoRider View Post
    Is becoming a mass murderer something you spend a lot of time concerned about? Have you spoken to someone about this? Do you have access to any guns? Should someone close to you ask for a "wellness exam"?
    Sheilah
    Glad to see your sense of humor is intact! (And thanks for the reminder that I actually am due for a "wellness"exam. If only we had the same deal they used to have in Germany - a week at a spa paid for by health insuance. I'm sure I'd be less cranky with such a benefit.)


    2 members found this post helpful.

  10. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by hosspuller View Post
    A lot of the posts are confusing the fact... Who pays is the question. HL is not against the choice of its employees. HL is just against using corp resources for terminating life. Killing unborn. They regard a fertilized egg as a child. Contraception is preventing that fertilized egg. I haven't read anything that said they are against BC. Actually I've read that HL does cover BC.
    Dear heavens, why can peeps with peniss not understand that the morning after pill does not abort a fetus? It is another form of BC not an abortifacient.

    I am typing this on my phone so will be brief. This man who holds a place of power has, IMO, the responsibility to - no matter what his religion is or is not - to educate himself enough to know what he is talking about when he makes a policy that affects the people who work for him.

    If he is indeed catholic and therefore opposed to all forms of BC than fine! Own it! But his company is not a person and therefore his company has no religion or opinion on BC and his company is not going to hell so... I sure resent the fact that our tax dollars will pay to debate this in court.

    In this country birth control AND incidentally, abortion - are legal. If you prefer to be able to base company policies on your personal religious beliefs than move to a country where BC and abortion are illegal. Such an easy fix for his problem if he cannot comprehend that the morning after pill is not an abortifacient. Probably less stressful for him too. Win for everyone!
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  11. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donkerbruin View Post
    Has nothing to do with having the same ideas. The morning after pill does not work if a woman is already pregnant. It does nothing. It is not an abortion pill. HL's owner (and you, apparently) are having a hard time grasping this concept.
    The ignorance of medical/scientific fact has got to the be the scariest thing about these whack-a-doodles. From the 'legitimate rape' nonsense to this dogged ignorance about how BC works. There are two options. 1) They are that ignorant/dumb. 2) They aren't, but they figure if they repeat the same untruths often enough they may eventually get what they want.

    I'm not sure which is worse.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  12. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolprudm View Post
    a corporation does not have a right to enforce the religious belief s of its owners or executives. HL is a private corp but is subject to the same laws as other corporations. Most of these are owned by shareholders who probably have different religious beliefs. CEO's also come and go and their religious beliefs have no bearing on the company's actions.

    The Green family chose to incorporate their business, separating it from their personal affairs and shielding them from liabilities incurred by the corporation. but that means they are subject to the laws other corporations are subject to.
    They're privately held.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    1 members found this post helpful.

  13. #513
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    I don't think employers should be able to pick and choose which health issues they feel morally okay covering. Why is that even an option? The medications and health care decisions of your employeesare none of your business. Should employers also be able to pick and choose what employees do with their wages? Some people use their earnings on lap dances, should employers be able to say "Emploees are not allowed to use the $$ earned @ this company to buy lap dances because that is against our religious beliefs." Honestly, I am amazed that people think any of this is the employer's business. Just pay for health care across the board and worry about your OWN soul, morals, whatever.

    Like I and others have said, how would you all feel if, say, an employer was a Christian Scientist and therefore believed that ANY healthcare is a sin? Would you support that? You simply can not allow employers to expect their employees to abide by their morals. Very slippery slope.

    And let's not forget that freaking Medicare pays for penile pimps and Viagara. That certainly could contribute to "sin" and yet I don't hear anyone whining about money going towards that.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  14. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheval convert View Post
    And there are mass murders done in the name of the government - Nazi Germany comes to mind. There were Catholics, called by a higher authority, who hid some of the Jews. This will always comes down to whose perspective and whose authority.

    For the record, here is a quote from the higher authority, "Thou shalt not commit murder". (And actually, I prefer the quote, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." I try to live by that one. I do fail on occassion but it is something that I strive for.) I believe those 2 quotes should cover fears of my becoming a mass murderer.
    Saying that your higher power trumps the government for this entire nation, inclusive of jews, muslims, hindus and non believers is one of the most self serving narsasistic statements I have ever heard. It is the religious idea such as what you express that makes it so importent to have religion taken out of government. And why I could never support someone who can even think that their god is supreme to all other laws for any position in government.

    People have done great harm in the name of their higher power including those that do so against the US. But I would guess that you consider your "higher power" superior to any one else's.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  15. #515
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    If you can't afford the potential result of sex then you go buy a condom or don't have sex.

    This is SO.NOT.the purpose of government.

    Someone's 'right to have sex' is a FAR cry from someone in poverty that can't afford basic healthcare to keep alive.

    If you can't afford to pay, don't play.
    Society figured out some time ago that it is cheaper, safer, smarter, and just plain BETTER to educate all citizens (with FREE public school) no matter what. We could say instead that if you can't afford to educate your children, then you shouldn't have them. After all, why should I have to pay more taxes because YOU want to have 2,4,8 or 16 kids!! That's ridiculous!! Why do I have to pay to educate your kids because YOU want to have so many BUT you are too lazy to work hard enough to pay to educate them yourself!?!?!

    Well... we do that (in our modern, enlightened, oh so genius era...) because it is a far, far better plan to educate all the citizens than to let huge percentages live poor and dumb.

    BC is NOT about people having sex. It is about people NOT having babies. People NOT having babies they cannot afford/do not want. Therefore Society in general NOT being burdened with those unwanted pregnancies.

    I don't know if BC opponents are just stupid or what? You WANT people who are NOT wealthy and NOT that organized and NOT that responsible to have more kids???? How does that do anybody any good at all?

    It is smart for society to educate ALL citizens, even if the parents of those citizens are poor and unable to educate the children themselves. AND it is smart for society to help PREVENT unwanted pregnancies.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  16. #516
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    Easy step for Hobby Lobby would be to make each store an independent franchised operation

    Hobby Lobby only employees about 21,000 people, operates 525 outlets... so they average less than 40 per store... the company carries no long-term debt


    Mr Hobby Lobby could even be the majority stock holder of each store.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  17. #517
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    And, correct, Plan B or "the morning after pill" is NOT the abortion pill. Two completely different things. I actually drove a friend to get Plan B right after she was raped because it PREVENTS pregnancy. Prevents. Not ends.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  18. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
    Society figured out some time ago that it is cheaper, safer, smarter, and just plain BETTER to educate all citizens (with FREE public school) no matter what. We could say instead that if you can't afford to educate your children, then you shouldn't have them. After all, why should I have to pay more taxes because YOU want to have 2,4,8 or 16 kids!! That's ridiculous!! Why do I have to pay to educate your kids because YOU want to have so many BUT you are too lazy to work hard enough to pay to educate them yourself!?!?!

    Well... we do that (in our modern, enlightened, oh so genius era...) because it is a far, far better plan to educate all the citizens than to let huge percentages live poor and dumb.

    BC is NOT about people having sex. It is about people NOT having babies. People NOT having babies they cannot afford/do not want. Therefore Society in general NOT being burdened with those unwanted pregnancies.

    I don't know if BC opponents are just stupid or what? You WANT people who are NOT wealthy and NOT that organized and NOT that responsible to have more kids???? How does that do anybody any good at all?

    It is smart for society to educate ALL citizens, even if the parents of those citizens are poor and unable to educate the children themselves. AND it is smart for society to help PREVENT unwanted pregnancies.

    Good luck with the valid argument my friend... The reality position rarely seems to get enough attention
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
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    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.


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  19. #519
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    Yet again... You demand HL pay for something they don't want.

    How about making HL pay their employess a $1000 per hour?

    There is no doubt HL is subject to the laws of the country. That's why they have appealed to the courts. Sotomeyer denied their injunctive relief. It will continue

    How about you buy me a pony even though you wish me ill... Wait ! I don't want a pony... Just send me cash :0


    2 members found this post helpful.

  20. #520
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post
    Society figured out some time ago that it is cheaper, safer, smarter, and just plain BETTER to educate all citizens (with FREE public school) no matter what. We could say instead that if you can't afford to educate your children, then you shouldn't have them. After all, why should I have to pay more taxes because YOU want to have 2,4,8 or 16 kids!! That's ridiculous!! Why do I have to pay to educate your kids because YOU want to have so many BUT you are too lazy to work hard enough to pay to educate them yourself!?!?!

    Well... we do that (in our modern, enlightened, oh so genius era...) because it is a far, far better plan to educate all the citizens than to let huge percentages live poor and dumb.

    BC is NOT about people having sex. It is about people NOT having babies. People NOT having babies they cannot afford/do not want. Therefore Society in general NOT being burdened with those unwanted pregnancies.

    I don't know if BC opponents are just stupid or what? You WANT people who are NOT wealthy and NOT that organized and NOT that responsible to have more kids???? How does that do anybody any good at all?

    It is smart for society to educate ALL citizens, even if the parents of those citizens are poor and unable to educate the children themselves. AND it is smart for society to help PREVENT unwanted pregnancies.
    What is so difficult for you guys to understand????????

    HL is not prohibiting ANYONE, not ANYONE from taking BC or using morning after pill etc... They JUST DONT BELIEVE IN PAYING A PENNY FOR IT.

    Look at the amount of personal fortitude Mr HL and family have to stand up for thier beliefs when it is so incredible hard. They will spens MILLIONS of dollars to defend their beliefs.


    2 members found this post helpful.

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