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  1. #301
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    If you're in trouble, no one else can help you, and if you can find him...you can hire....Karl Rove.
    Thus do we growl that our big toes have,
    at this moment, been thrown up from below!


    1 members found this post helpful.

  2. #302
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    The courts already have several precedents on the books that say corporations do have those rights....corporations are legal entities comprised of people participating voluntarily...stockholders, employees, officers, board members etc. it's easy I guess to pretend they are faceless, evil entities and convenient to think the don't enjoy basic rights, but inaccurate. The courts will decide on this specific issue in the end.

    If you think individuals give up their all individual liberties once the invest in a corporation, do you believe that an employee gives up their rights once they participate in the corporation by accepting a pay check?


    4 members found this post helpful.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noms View Post
    Yes.
    Reporting for duty.



  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by jr View Post
    The courts already have several precedents on the books that say corporations do have those rights....corporations are legal entities comprised of people participating voluntarily...stockholders, employees, officers, board members etc. it's easy I guess to pretend they are faceless, evil entities and convenient to think the don't enjoy basic rights, but inaccurate. The courts will decide on this specific issue in the end.

    If you think individuals give up their all individual liberties once the invest in a corporation, do you believe that an employee gives up their rights once they participate in the corporation by accepting a pay check?
    http://news.heartland.org/editorial/...nder-obamacare

    The argument the administration advanced successfully in the Hobby Lobby case is a particularly troublesome one for believers of all faiths who operate under the assumption that they can use their moral principles to guide the way their place of business spends money. According to the administration's legal arguments, the family that owns Hobby Lobby is not protected by the First Amendment's "free exercise" clause because “Hobby Lobby is a for-profit, secular employer, and a secular entity by definition does not exercise religion.”

    FWIW, as an employee I have been required as a condition of employment, to sign a non compete agreement and to allow my picture to be used in company advertising. Other companies require uniforms or drug tests not to mention unconsionable mandatory OT
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolprudm View Post
    http://news.heartland.org/editorial/...nder-obamacare

    The argument the administration advanced successfully in the Hobby Lobby case is a particularly troublesome one for believers of all faiths who operate under the assumption that they can use their moral principles to guide the way their place of business spends money. According to the administration's legal arguments, the family that owns Hobby Lobby is not protected by the First Amendment's "free exercise" clause because “Hobby Lobby is a for-profit, secular employer, and a secular entity by definition does not exercise religion.”
    That clause re HL is not procteded under the 1st amendment because it is a for-profit corp is BS, this is an opinion piece, if there is a case to back it up, then please post the cite.



  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noms View Post
    The govt has exempted many companies from the mandate, because they are unions, and/or the companies are in Pelosis district ( which was an interesting tidbit that i didnt know)
    They're not exempted from the mandate...they have a slower time table to get to the no lifetime limit and no yearly limit.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    3 members found this post helpful.

  7. #307
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    Aug. 12, 2002
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    Are you people still arguing about this? Why? Does either side think you're going to change the other side's mind? So what is the point?


    2 members found this post helpful.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolprudm View Post
    http://news.heartland.org/editorial/...nder-obamacare

    The argument the administration advanced successfully in the Hobby Lobby case is a particularly troublesome one for believers of all faiths who operate under the assumption that they can use their moral principles to guide the way their place of business spends money. According to the administration's legal arguments, the family that owns Hobby Lobby is not protected by the First Amendment's "free exercise" clause because “Hobby Lobby is a for-profit, secular employer, and a secular entity by definition does not exercise religion.”
    This is a summary of the lower court's decision. This case will continue to wind through the 10th Circuit and I suspect end up before SCOTUS again, the next time on its actual merits rather than just a request for emergency relief pending the litigation process.

    This was an interesting read though, thanks for the link.
    Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion.... ~ Emerson


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #309
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    Yup, understand the various arguments. We will see where the courts wind up on that.

    But given that line of reasoning, don't the employees of HL give up their religious freedoms by participating in the secular, for profit activity that is HL? Why is the investor treated differently than the employee again? If HL came in and said to a devout employee that they had to do something that violated their beliefs, many here would be arguing the employees part....just pointing out that in progressive America there is often a double standard.

    Again, I don't know how this one will turn out once SCOTUS gets it, bit I think there is real hypocrisy when it comes to how people view business.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noms View Post
    That clause re HL is not procteded under the 1st amendment because it is a for-profit corp is BS, this is an opinion piece, if there is a case to back it up, then please post the cite.
    as you wish from Fox
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...erage-mandate/
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.



  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    Hosspuller, I don't think anyone is requesting a pony for their own health care. But you and Noms can live in that world where there are no limitations on literal language and that the courts don't exist in the US.
    Literal ..smiteral ...
    I object to the gov't making me pay for somebody else...

    My health insurance cost increases because gov't mandates coverage to 26 years old losers living in parents basement.

    My telephone costs increase because gov't mandates coverage of Obama phones.

    My power bill increases because gov't mandates coverage of renewable energy.

    My gasoline costs increase because gov't mandates ethanol be blended into it.

    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

    Does "general welfare" mean benefits to the select few or everybody?


    2 members found this post helpful.

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by TarheelJD View Post
    Yay, you may be right. And I have given up trying to keep this thing civil.
    I guess you have if you consider pointing out the obvious to be rude.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolprudm View Post
    NOO, I mean post a cite that backs up many peoples opinion that the religious bleliefs of individuals that are practiced through corporations are not protected under the first amendment, A COURT CASE.



  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by hosspuller View Post
    Literal ..smiteral ...
    I object to the gov't making me pay for somebody else...

    My health insurance cost increases because gov't mandates coverage to 26 years old losers living in parents basement.

    My telephone costs increase because gov't mandates coverage of Obama phones.
    We sweated bullets because our daughter didn't get her PhD in Chem and a "real job" until she was 26. Yeah, she was a real loser.....
    And do you know when and why "Obama Phones" came into being???? Under the Reagan admin. It's hard to do lots of things, like apply for a job when you don't have a phone
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.


    13 members found this post helpful.

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    I guess you have if you consider pointing out the obvious to be rude.
    Sorry, I don't understand? If you think I was being rude, I apologize. That was not my intent.
    Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion.... ~ Emerson



  16. #316
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    Aug. 4, 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by hosspuller View Post
    Literal ..smiteral ...
    I object to the gov't making me pay for somebody else...

    My health insurance cost increases because gov't mandates coverage to 26 years old losers living in parents basement.

    My telephone costs increase because gov't mandates coverage of Obama phones.

    My power bill increases because gov't mandates coverage of renewable energy.

    My gasoline costs increase because gov't mandates ethanol be blended into it.

    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

    Does "general welfare" mean benefits to the select few or everybody?

    YEAH, and most of those Govt mandates come in the form of regulations or executive order, Obamas go to way of getting what he wants, he circumvents the constitution.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noms View Post
    NOO, I mean post a cite that backs up many peoples opinion that the religious bleliefs of individuals that are practiced through corporations are not protected under the first amendment, A COURT CASE.
    Ummmm did you read it? It is a real court case
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noms View Post
    NOO, I mean post a cite that backs up many peoples opinion that the religious bleliefs of individuals that are practiced through corporations are not protected under the first amendment, A COURT CASE.
    What the hell are you talking about? She just posted about a court case.

    A court case isn't about many people's opinions, it's about a judge's or judges' opinions.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noms View Post
    YEAH, and most of those Govt mandates come in the form of regulations or executive order, Obamas go to way of getting what he wants, he circumvents the constitution.
    Don't let truth or facts hold you back!


    6 members found this post helpful.

  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolprudm View Post
    We sweated bullets because our daughter didn't get her PhD in Chem and a "real job" until she was 26. Yeah, she was a real loser.....
    And do you know when and why "Obama Phones" came into being???? Under the Reagan admin. It's hard to do lots of things, like apply for a job when you don't have a phone
    Still no reason for extorted benefits from other people.
    Last edited by hosspuller; Dec. 30, 2012 at 07:53 PM. Reason: deleted snarky reply


    2 members found this post helpful.

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