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  1. #1
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    Default So... Hobby Lobby. Do you support their position on Obamacare?

    I'm going to go ahead and start it in hopes we can have a reasonable debate on the subject.

    "Craft store giant Hobby Lobby is bracing for a $1.3 million a day fine beginning January 1 for noncompliance with the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, dubbed Obamacare.

    The company opposes providing some contraceptives to employees through its company health care plan on religious grounds, saying some contraceptive products, like the morning after pill, equate to abortion."
    Link: http://www.ksat.com/news/Hobby-Lobby...l/-/index.html

    So what do YOU think?

    I think the company's position will be held to be unconstitutional, on the grounds that an employer may not discriminate against an employee on religious grounds.

    But then again, if corporations are people....???
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief


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  2. #2
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    Default

    I know of two janitorial business that employed a little over eight hundred people that close December 31, 2012.


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  3. #3
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    I desperately hope Citizens United will die a painful and quick death soon.

    No, I don't think a company should be able to inhibit employee access to contraceptives.

    And I hate myself because I had to go to Hobby Lobby yesterday and get an easel. I have been looking for this particular box easel for months and the only place that has one with all the exact specifications and bells and whistles that I need is Hobby Lobby, and it was $26 as opposed to $75 for the closest non-HL model (which didn't meet all my needs). So I bought it and I love it and I hate myself. I'm going to send $5 to Planned Parenthood, apologize for being broke, and ask if they can send me a sticker to pimp it out with.


    34 members found this post helpful.

  4. #4
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    Very sad for the employees who will be denied health care. They should have made the fines large enough to not incentivize not providing health care. Big mistake...


    12 members found this post helpful.

  5. #5
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    What I see Hobby Lobby doing is not discriminating against anyone. They are saying these are our beliefs and based on those we do not want to pay for contraception. They are not firing people who use contraception. They are not using it as a discriminator in hiring.

    Companies make decisions regarding benefits all the time. They don't, or didn't, have to provide benefits just because employees wanted them.
    "I couldn't find my keys, so I put her in the trunk"


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  6. #6
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    I support their position as being part of their religious freedom. It's not like contraceptives aren't cheap and easy to find for women who want them. The can get them free at a family planning center along with free gov't paid for abortions. I have no idea why any religious institution or business owned by religious people like this one should be forced to do something completely against their beliefs particularly when there are other options for the employees to obtain the contraceptives.


    46 members found this post helpful.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream Believer View Post
    I support their position as being part of their religious freedom.
    See, this is the part I truly don't get. I'm not trying to be snarky, I just don't understand how people work this one in their minds. I don't believe any employer (but especially not a non-religious corporation) has the right to FORCE its religious beliefs on its employees. Can you explain WHY you believe that you do?
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief


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  8. #8
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    I think it's wrong for them to impose their beliefs on their employees, and wrong to deny them health care on religious grounds. It's not up to an employer to decide what's medically best for their employees; it's up to that person's doctor. Many women take contraceptives for medical, not birth control, reasons. I do; if I didn't, I would miss at minimum a day of work every month, often more. Others have reasons for which pregnancy could be very dangerous. I agree with the new laws on this one-health care is between a patient and doctor, and nobody else has the right to tell me what I can and can't do...and if an employee has earned a benefit, that's all the company needs to know.

    I do think that the program's weakness is that it has too many ways for companies to get around it and for insurance companies to charge ridiculous rates (the law should have made all insurers not for profit to keep cost in line. Personally, I think that all employees should be able to get coverage but pay based on employment status. For example, someone who works 20 hours should have the option of being covered, but have to pay 50% of whatever the employer contributes to a full-time employee. So, if the employer pays 90% of full time workers; insurance, a half-time worker could buy in if hey paid the initial 10% that fulltimers oay plus half of the remaining 90%. Someone who works 10 hours would pay the 10% plus 75% of the rest, etc. That and raising the fines for noncompliance would discourage companies from cutting hours to avoid paying. Also, if companies can prove hardship (as in owner couldn't turn enough profit to live on hardship, not oh, gosh, our profits would go from 50 million to 30 million "hardship"), there should be some kind of sliding rate scale for them.


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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by War Admiral View Post
    See, this is the part I truly don't get. I'm not trying to be snarky, I just don't understand how people work this one in their minds. I don't believe any employer (but especially not a non-religious corporation) has the right to FORCE its religious beliefs on its employees. Can you explain WHY you believe that you do?
    He is not. He is just saying that he does not want to have to pay for abortions, and the morning after pill. (I am not sure if he said the bc pill too or not, honestly). He didn't say that his employees couldn't do it, couldn't pay for it on their own, or that their jobs were in danger if they chose to do these things. No, he said he didn't want to pay for it. Fair enough. I abhor smoking, so I won't pay for my 21 yr old dd's cigarettes. To me it is the same thing.
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  10. #10
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    It is not they are forcing their beliefs...the employee can get birth control.

    The employer should not have to PAY for something (in this case birth control) that is against the religious beliefs of the company's owners.

    I have no fight in the birth control issue-I am not against it. BUT I do not believe my boss should have to pay for mine under any circumstances and certainly should not have to if it is against his beliefs.

    Take it a step farther. *I* do not believe in abortion. I won't get involved in someone else's choice BUT I would be ill at the thought of having my money go to funding it.

    Does that make it simply enough?

    No one at Hobby Lobby is firing anyone over using it, they just do not want to have to pay for it.


    25 members found this post helpful.

  11. #11
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    I do not understand how a company can refuse to pay for birth control for its employees but is fine paying for them to have babies. Wouldn't it be cheaper to pay for birth control?


    22 members found this post helpful.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream Believer View Post
    I support their position as being part of their religious freedom. It's not like contraceptives aren't cheap and easy to find for women who want them. The can get them free at a family planning center along with free gov't paid for abortions. I have no idea why any religious institution or business owned by religious people like this one should be forced to do something completely against their beliefs particularly when there are other options for the employees to obtain the contraceptives.
    Had the Republicans won the White House, those Planned Parenthood clinics likely would have been defunded and access to birth control for HL employees, many of whom I'd imagine are making minimum wage or not much more, would have been further curtailed. Luckily, that didn't happen.

    Regarding religious freedom, I tend to agree w/War Admiral. One's religious beliefs shouldn't be forced on others, especially when that action serves to deny others needed services, such as health care.


    26 members found this post helpful.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    Take it a step farther. *I* do not believe in abortion. I won't get involved in someone else's choice BUT I would be ill at the thought of having my money go to funding it.

    Does that make it simply enough?.
    No, it doesn't, really (sorry!), b/c I would hate to think that my employer has any right whatsoever to dictate my health care choices, especially when in so doing, that employer is violating a federal LAW.

    ETA: Moreover, I don't understand HOW that is not religious discrimination in your mind. It is FORCING employees to ACCEPT their employer's religious views.
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief


    17 members found this post helpful.

  14. #14
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    Default

    People incorporate businesses to separate that business and its possible liabilities from their personal life. You can't have it both ways
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by War Admiral View Post
    No, it doesn't, really (sorry!), b/c I would hate to think that my employer has any right whatsoever to dictate my health care choices, especially when in so doing, that employer is violating a federal LAW.

    He doesn't...you can do whatever you want with your money.

    If I owned a business and had to pay for things that violated my religious beliefs, I would close down my business.

    End of conversation.

    No government will force me to do something that in my beliefs means I would jeopardize my salvation.

    *YOU* can do whatever you want.

    Perhaps they could solve this with a basic health program that is paid for by the employer...then each employee could purchase a 'family planning rider' that would include BC and abortions.

    Sort of like buying a dental rider.


    18 members found this post helpful.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SarahandSam View Post
    No, I don't think a company should be able to inhibit employee access to contraceptives.
    They're not. Contraceptives are cheap and easy to get at any gas station, drug store, and county health department. BC pills arent prohibitively expensive even if you dont have insurance that covers them. HL is a privately owned company and as such should not be forced to enact policies that go against their personal or religious beliefs. Obamacare has created a government healthcare option for those who dont have employer provided healthcare so these people can get health insurance through that avenue.
    "Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field." --Dwight D Eisenhower

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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    If I owned a business and had to pay for things that violated my religious beliefs, I would close down my business.

    [edit]

    No government will force me to do something that in my beliefs means I would jeopardize my salvation.
    So I would assume then that your business would also refuse to pay any federal taxes whatsoever, on the grounds that those taxes go to support killing small babies with drones in foreign countries?

    After all, there IS that whole "Thou shalt not kill" thing... How do you square THAT in your head? Or do you just kind of SKIP that commandment?
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief


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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream Believer View Post
    It's not like contraceptives aren't cheap and easy to find for women who want them. The can get them free at a family planning center along with free gov't paid for abortions.
    2 words for you: Hyde Amendment.

    The government isn't just going around giving abortions for free on demand. The Hyde Amendment prohibits federal funds being used except in cases of rape or incest.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    He doesn't...you can do whatever you want with your money.

    If I owned a business and had to pay for things that violated my religious beliefs, I would close down my business.

    End of conversation.

    No government will force me to do something that in my beliefs means I would jeopardize my salvation.

    *YOU* can do whatever you want.

    Perhaps they could solve this with a basic health program that is paid for by the employer...then each employee could purchase a 'family planning rider' that would include BC and abortions.

    Sort of like buying a dental rider.
    That makes perfect sense. Why do people want others to pay for their stuff?What happened to personal responsibility?
    Until fairly recently, there weren't policies available that even covered b/c and abortion. That all had to come out of pocket. Why the uproar now?
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by War Admiral View Post
    So I would assume then that your business would also refuse to pay any federal taxes whatsoever, on the grounds that those taxes go to support killing small babies with drones in foreign countries?

    After all, there IS that whole "Thou shalt not kill" thing... How do you square THAT in your head? Or do you just kind of SKIP that commandment?
    We don't really have a choice in that as the taxes are taken out before we even get the check, and there are no other options if you are not a 1099 employee.
    http://community.webshots.com/album/548368465RfewoU[/url]

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