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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec. 21, 2006
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    89

    Default Please help- opinion on Xrays

    I was curious if anyone might be able to give their opinion on the following Xrays. A friend of mine is look at this horse, just as a pleasure horse, but is looking for input on what issues people might think he will have. She is forwarding the xrays to her vet for his opinion, but the more input the better.

    Here is the horses story. He is a 4 yr tb who bowed at the track. Owner decided to do stem cell on the tendon. He bowed in july, stem cell was done beginning of Sept.

    Tendon was healing well, until his ankle started to become swollen. Owner was told it was an osselet forming, but he was on stall rest, then The vet said it was wear and tear on the ankle and this sometimes happen to an ankle when a horse bows- but the ankle was clean nothing showed for over 2 months. It wasn't till after the stem cell the ankle blew up. The vet said he can go in and clean it up for $1500..but its just cosmetic.

    He is a very cool horse, but if he is going to have major issues my friend is going to be forced to pass on him. We don't know if it is a reation to the stem cell, if he injured himself on rest or what.

    Opinions are greatly appreciated.
    http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...psa88706d2.jpg

    http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...psa7de42fe.jpg

    http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps6d8a6eaa.jpg

    http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps1578367e.jpg

    http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps924595cf.jpg

    http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps451ceb11.jpg



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec. 4, 2002
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    2,536

    Default

    These are all tendon pictures, so I am not sure how one can tell about an ankle with those...


    1 members found this post helpful.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec. 15, 2005
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    3,297

    Default

    As Advanced said, there are no x-rays pictured, just the tendon ultrasounds.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec. 21, 2006
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    89

    Default

    OOOOPPPS... I apolgize... she gave me links to the wrong thing... She was supposed to send me the Xrays, not the scan... I'll post the xrays as soon as she send them... Thanks!



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan. 16, 2002
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    West Coast of Michigan
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    Default

    What specific value, exactly, would you be willing to put on x-ray interpretation by laypeople who have never laid eyes on the horse in question? At $0.04/megabyte to upload the pictures with a typical wireless access program I'd say the cost of just uploading the files is more than I'd want to spend getting this sort of input from total strangers. Is this not what vets are paid to do?
    Click here before you buy.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun. 4, 2006
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    2,527

    Default

    Do you have a university in your area? Have your vet forward them down to a reputable surgeon or specialist and get there opinion.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr. 14, 2006
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    3,329

    Default

    As others have said...this is not an issue to be decided by the COTH readers...but I would be skeptical of a horse with a bowed tendon and now ankle/osselot issues that was only 4 years old and already on stall rest. He would have to be very special and free!!! I think your friend is invitng disaster to invest in a horse like this.
    www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
    Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2010
    Location
    Gum Tree PA
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    1,087

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    What specific value, exactly, would you be willing to put on x-ray interpretation by laypeople who have never laid eyes on the horse in question? At $0.04/megabyte to upload the pictures with a typical wireless access program I'd say the cost of just uploading the files is more than I'd want to spend getting this sort of input from total strangers. Is this not what vets are paid to do?
    I would tend to agree with your post but no need to be snarky. Being a life long racing guy I am well versed with dealing with bows. I don’t know everything I am only 56 but I have never known or been told osselets are a repercussion of a bow in a 4 year old. The horse bowed in September visually it will only gets worse looking in he next couple of months before it gets better. I don’t put a lot of stock in stem cell treatments at this time. For every one who has paid the cost and said the results were a miracle I could provide testimony of many that said it wasn’t worth a dam. I have posted time again that the only treatment for bows that seems to be worth the cost at this time IMO is a PRP which is a 1/3 of the cost of stem cell. Time and proper rehab is still the same as it has been for years with or with out PRP, Stem cell regardless of the procedure type . But IME PRP results in a better bang for the buck in the healing process along with hyperbaric chamber treatment. At least as far what an Ultrasound will show. The leg will never look like the day the horse was born but many have done just fine outside of racing. A lot of have done very well racing after he fact. I am not sure what your vet means by “cleaning up” in a 4 year old. There shouldn’t be a lot to “clean up” regardless of the bow. How old is the person and what is their back ground? Their comments seem a bit suspect. I am not pointing fingers but I know how things work and the repercussions of injections when they are not done right, can and do result with serious consequences. Bows happen, they are not life threatening and the majority horses recover just fine. Bottom line if your are not 100% confident with your vet get a second opinion.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan. 16, 2002
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    West Coast of Michigan
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    Default

    Really I had no "snarky" intention, but the OP's original statement that "the more input the better" IME is just *not* the case for medical decision-making. Personally I'd rather have 1-2 truly expert opinions than a dozen non-expert ones.
    Click here before you buy.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb. 18, 2006
    Location
    east central Illinois and working north to the 'burbs
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    3,836

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gumtree View Post
    I would tend to agree with your post but no need to be snarky.
    What you see as snarky, I see as refreshingly direct and honest....

    Being a life long racing guy I am well versed with dealing with bows. I don’t know everything I am only 56 but I have never known or been told osselets are a repercussion of a bow in a 4 year old.
    Well, if you haven't heard of it, it must not be true......
    The horse bowed in September visually it will only gets worse looking in he next couple of months before it gets better.
    Actually, the OP said the bow occurred in JULY so even 'old school' the rehab should be five months into its process and the severity of how it looks should be starting to diminish. Then again, that would depend on the severity of the bow, right?
    I don’t put a lot of stock in stem cell treatments at this time.
    Well, that's good enough for me.....
    I have posted time again that the only treatment for bows that seems to be worth the cost at this time IMO is a PRP which is a 1/3 of the cost of stem cell. Time and proper rehab is still the same as it has been for years with or with out PRP, Stem cell regardless of the procedure type . But IME PRP results in a better bang for the buck in the healing process along with hyperbaric chamber treatment.
    While I tend to agree about the PRP treatment, as with most things equid, It Depends. And I think you hit the nail on the head with your comment about time and proper rehab. Lets face it, regardless of what intervention is employed, if the tendon fibers don't heal in a straight alignment along their long axis, then the results will be much less than desired.
    The leg will never look like the day the horse was born but many have done just fine outside of racing. A lot of have done very well racing after he fact.
    And a lot have not. Anecdotal evidence is not enough for me when dealing with injury and return to use. I've seen many horses who bow that then go on to successful careers in the H/J ring but I never recommend to a client that they purchase or continue to use , as an over fences horse, a horse that has bowed. But that's just me.
    Bows happen, they are not life threatening and the majority horses recover just fine.
    So, what about the horses in the minority?
    Bottom line if your are not 100% confident with your vet get a second opinion.
    Now that's good advice.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec. 21, 2006
    Posts
    89

    Default UPDATE- XRAYS>>>

    Hi again all...

    I have to say that I have gotten good advice here in the past and my friend is just looking for outside opinions on what people may see as it is going to take her vet a little longer with the holidays to get back to her...

    Can't she be curious on other's opinions besides her vet? Also, its good for other people to see and inform what the xrays may say... It's good for owners to be able to see what the vets talk about!!

    Here are the xrays taken in Nov... The stem cell started on the tendon in Sept. Please feel free to comment and give opinion...

    http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps6434c85b.jpg
    http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps3b0596fc.jpg
    http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...psc9a71b02.jpg
    http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...pseb8a0506.jpg
    http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...ps3a60f499.jpg



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul. 26, 2001
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    Toronto, Canada.
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    6,333

    Default

    Im no expert at ALL on horse rads, but I wonder what that area is adjacent to the sesamoids (distal cannon bone, on the cranial aspect). You can see it as a fuzzy area on the first radiograph.

    I dont see anything abnormal in the actual joint surface - however, I think any half reasonable vet would be able to see that strange area and tell you if thats abornmal or not. Its in the area of the ankle.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov. 15, 2009
    Posts
    381

    Default

    You can see what is probably an OCD lesion as well as accompanying swelling of the front of the fetlock - there may or may not be minor chipping (or had been a chip there at one point that was removed already?) but if this were a yearling, we would do surgery to clean that area up (or insert stem cells into the area, we did that with one filly who had bad lesions on her stifles and while it wasn't a drastic change, it did help some in filling in the areas)

    However, I am NOT a vet - but that is what it appears to be based off all the other x-rays I've seen from working with TBs



  14. #14
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    Feb. 18, 2006
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    east central Illinois and working north to the 'burbs
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SquishTheBunny View Post
    Im no expert at ALL on horse rads, but I wonder what that area is adjacent to the sesamoids (distal cannon bone, on the cranial aspect). You can see it as a fuzzy area on the first radiograph.
    Perhaps its early stage [periarticular] osteophyte formation.

    I personally, would not buy this horse.



  15. #15
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    May. 4, 2006
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    Seabeck - the soggy peninsula
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    3,283

    Default

    I would certainly get another opinion but this does look like early stage of arthritis or formation of osselets, and it does impinge on the joint hence the discussion of "cleaning it up". If your friend has the time and money, and if the horse is that nice that he/she wants to give it a go (I did not get the impression she/he is looking to buy the horse but it is a freebie?), it is a fairly straight forward clean up process if that is what they want to do. Bless this person if she can do this for a young potentially useful animal as a pleasure horse, otherwise this horse probably does not have much options.
    "I have brought on the hatred of Wall Street and I relish it".
    Franklin Delano Roosevelt



  16. #16
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    Aug. 4, 2009
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    MD
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    Default

    This is going be real easy...Go Find Another Horse...



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec. 21, 2006
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    89

    Default

    Yes this horse is a freebie...Her vet said the same thing- dealing with a bow is bad enough, but the bow combined with the ankle make it a double whammy...He stated the same thing about the onset of arthritis and recommends surgery to help this horse have a productive life as a pleasure horse.

    It stinks because this horse has such an awesome personality. Her vet thinks he might have had a reaction somehow to the stem cell as she saw the ankle and tendon in july and the ankle was normal.

    Has anyone ever heard of that? She is shaking her head because the horse was on stall rest for 2 months... How could this happen in the stall?

    Anyway, she is going to pass on him as she is weary of operating on him and it not getting better...Hopefully someone would be willing to take a chance on this guy because he is adorable!!



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Sep. 24, 2008
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    Default

    Good choice.
    I think it was a good idea to get a second opinion. I once had a horse who had bowed ultrasounded and the original vet didn't see anything unmanageable. When my own vet saw the ultrasound he asked..."Which bow did you want to discuss...the new one or the old one underneath it?" The first vet hadn't seen it at all.
    There are lots of good, solid horses out there and it certainly is a buyer's market. Keep looking.

    NJR
    Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behaviour does.



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Apr. 10, 2008
    Posts
    660

    Default

    Nothing to "clean up" surgically -the osteophytes in the front of the fetlock are likely not within the joint, so you probably can't get to them surgically. If an arthroscopy is done, it would be able to tell you about the state of the cartilage within the joint, but not much else.

    I would probably pass on this horse as an athlete - light riding/trail horse would probably be fine...



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul. 2, 2003
    Location
    Woodland, Ca
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    6,183

    Default

    To me it looks like the horse stands and bangs his fetlock on the stall door.



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