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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr. 1, 2006
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    196

    Default Question on black thoroughbreds

    NOT wanting to start anything derogatory, just asking a question
    How likely or unlikely is it that a TB will be registered as dk brown or bay if they are really black? This is mere curiosity. I have been looking at Niagara Causeway, thinking, phenotypically he looks black to me ( even in person) but is registered as dk brown/bay. I know the genetics of the colors, I guess what I am asking is, when the bigger farms get these foals, how likely are they to care that the foal might be black and go through the pains of registering them as black versus saying "well, they're not chestnut or gray so bay or brown they are!". Any people with experience here ( I know if you are breeding for color you'll care, but for the non color) please pipe in
    And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Revelation 19:11



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct. 2, 2007
    Location
    Mirabel, QC
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    2,656

    Default

    Highly likely. TB race breeders don't care about colour and register horses by looks and not by DNA-testing their colour...
    www.EquusMagnificus.ca
    Breeding & Sales - Currently: Eventing & Derby prospects
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  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2010
    Location
    Gum Tree PA
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    1,188

    Default

    The following is The Jockey Club’s definition;
    Black: The entire coat of the horse is black, including the muzzle, the flanks, the mane, tail and legs, unless white markings are present.

    The only 2 colors The Jockey Club will scrutinize when a foal registration is submitted are Black and White. I think it would be very unlikely that a breeder would be allowed to register either of these colors without a JC representative verifying.

    This is the link to the JC's rules and regs, color is in section IV
    http://www.jockeyclub.com/registry.asp?section=3#two



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
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    Default

    Highly likely to be black and registered dark bay/brown, not because they don't care about color, but because their self-made definition of black is not reality, as gumtree talks about.

    There are absolutely true black horses - E?aa - who have "brown" hairs as a result of even mild sun fading.

    I do think, since black IS a recognized color, that if a breeder cared enough to get the horse color tested and prove that his "brown" or "dark bay" horse is really black, the JC might change it.
    ______________________________
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  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar. 8, 2004
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
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    19,846

    Default

    I have a mare who I consider to be black but registered her and her two black foals as dark bay. They all get a brown muzzle in the winter so therefore don't meet the definition of black even though they are definitely black to the eye.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul. 3, 2012
    Location
    Twin Cities
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    2,136

    Default

    MY (non-TB) seal brown mare is registered as black due to what I believe to be her original owner's wishful thinking.


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  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct. 26, 2009
    Posts
    76

    Default

    I have a black TB mare that is registered as Black on her papers....I did not register her. I also have a black TB mare registered as Bay....

    SH
    Last edited by SleepyHollow; Dec. 29, 2012 at 03:11 PM. Reason: spelling



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec. 14, 2007
    Location
    Wilsonville, Ontario, CANADA
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    4,379

    Default

    Panoramic was registered as dark bay/brown. He was 100% black - no question about it

    2 TB mares I had in recently were also dark bay/brown on their papers and both were 100% black. No doubt at all in my mind

    None had brown tones anywhere. Everything was black in that very "blue black" kind of way ...


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  9. #9
    Join Date
    May. 15, 2007
    Location
    NY State
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    363

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    Here's one whose color was obviously registered incorrectly. Her name is Helyna's Dreaming and she is registered with the Jockey Club as "dark bay or brown" but she's not dark and her tail is nearly blonde!?!
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater
    Last edited by CharingHounds; Dec. 29, 2012 at 04:46 PM. Reason: added detail


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  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep. 15, 2008
    Location
    Michigan
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    1,470

    Default

    My black tb mare by Way West is registered as dk bay. I had her tested and she is definitely black. Way West is also a black registered as a bay.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun. 9, 2003
    Location
    Alabama
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    5,481

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    My foundation Thoroughbred mare was registered as black and had some foals that I would consider black, but with a few brown hairs on the nose, played it safe and registered as dark bay/brown. I do agree, that some are obviously black and registered otherwise.
    PennyG



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar. 17, 2003
    Location
    North Texas, US
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    Sea Accounts is registered as dark bay/brown and there's no doubt that he's black.
    www.debracysporthorses.com
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  13. #13

    Default

    Very likely.
    Live Free Or Die Hard



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec. 14, 2007
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    Wilsonville, Ontario, CANADA
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    Default

    Charing Hounds - that mare is "wild bay" and is registered correctly

    That tail should also darken over time. Many bays have flaxen tails early on ...



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr. 14, 2006
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    3,423

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    Like the others have all said...VERY likely!! Horses that ARE registered black may not have gone to racing careers. The horse can go through breaking, training, months of race preparation as "black", but when the TB "Identifier" goes to tatoo him and finds ONE red/brown hair they will go through the whole, lengthy process of returning his papers to the JC to change the description on his JC foal papers!! From a race horse breeding standpoint, it is not worth the hassle/risk to check the "black" box!!!
    www.crosscreeksporthorses.com
    Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma


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  16. #16
    Join Date
    May. 15, 2007
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    NY State
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    363

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TrueColours View Post
    Charing Hounds - that mare is "wild bay" and is registered correctly

    That tail should also darken over time. Many bays have flaxen tails early on ...
    But TC, even if "bay" is the correct color why would she be registered as "dark" bay or brown (though "wild bay" sounds right AND she IS wild! )?
    Do you think her tail is really likely to turn "black" as the JC color standards define? She's a coming 5 yr old and her tail color hasn't changed since I first saw her as a 2 year old.
    It seems as though there should be another color option like bay/ sabino factor or something? I don't know or understand color genetics well enough to make a valid argument one way or another but I just can't wrap my head around Helyna being called a dark bay/brown.
    Here's another shot of her:
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater



  17. #17
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    May. 15, 2007
    Location
    NY State
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    363

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by crosscreeksh View Post
    Like the others have all said...VERY likely!! Horses that ARE registered black may not have gone to racing careers. The horse can go through breaking, training, months of race preparation as "black", but when the TB "Identifier" goes to tatoo him and finds ONE red/brown hair they will go through the whole, lengthy process of returning his papers to the JC to change the description on his JC foal papers!! From a race horse breeding standpoint, it is not worth the hassle/risk to check the "black" box!!!
    Agreed. Totally.



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Nov. 28, 2000
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    Ontario, Canada
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    Default

    I have and have had a number of 'brown' TBs who at first glance look black, but they are definitely 'brown'.
    I also have one TB mare, registered as 'black' and there is no question that she is black, especially when you see her next to the brown ones.

    She is in foal to A Fine Romance (brown) so it will be interesting to see what colour that one is.
    A FINE ROMANCE - JC Reg Thoroughbred - GOLD Premium CSHA - ISR/OLDNA Approved
    CSHA Brickenden Stallion Award Winner - for Performance offspring.
    Please visit A Fine Romance on FB!



  19. #19
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    Jan. 2, 2006
    Location
    Colorado
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    2,189

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gumtree View Post

    The only 2 colors The Jockey Club will scrutinize when a foal registration is submitted are Black and White. I think it would be very unlikely that a breeder would be allowed to register either of these colors without a JC representative verifying.
    But why? What is so strange/bad/weird about black that it's a major drama if one gets registered black and it isn't?



  20. #20
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    Dec. 13, 1999
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    Greensboro, NC
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    Default

    It's the JC - 'nuff said LOL

    I mean, they still register buckskins as bay, have only in the last couple of years started recognizing palomino as what it is instead of registering them all chestnut, and still think Roan exists (and for all intents and purposes, it doesn't, the 1 South America line doesn't really count as far as they are concerned, all grays still easily get registered "roan").

    They, like the APHA), made up their own rules as to what's what and just can't imagine detouring into reality
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET


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