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  1. #21
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    Cloning occurs in nature so it isn't "unnatural", how do you think twins and identical multiples come about? Early medical technology is just that, it takes time to perfect techniques and eventually medical advances can come from cloning. I am not sure why IVF is even included in this, it's been used thousands of times for infertile couples to concieve and there are many happy healthy kids from it.

    People get squicked out from cloning because of movies like Boys from Brazil and The 6th Day. Medical ethical standards are met and kept so that human cloning is still illegal. Even if we did clone people, environmental factors are huge and you could never really "copy" a human being.


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  2. #22
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    Am I the only one who thinks of the movie "Multiplicity" with Michael Keaton when people talk about cloning? That was a great movie and the clones keep cloning themselves and they end up with a 'not so bright' clone at the end. Like a ditto copy, not quite as crisp as the first one.

    But in all seriousness, I am against cloning pets, super awesome athletes be them animal or human, because environment plays such a large role in how an individual turns out.


    When we are all born (most of us) we are all on the same playing field. But our parents, nutrition, the place where we grew up, etc all played a part in how we turned out. I like the twins example, you cant get much more similarly matched DNA than that and they grow up under the same roof, yet different experiences, change them.

    I do not think that Gem Twist's clone ...what's his name....Gemini, will be as successful as Gem. Even if Frank trains him the say way, the food is different, the environment is different. There are too many factors that get in the way.

    OP your cat will not be the same. Sure it will look like your original cat, but the situation is now totally different. AND you will be expecting your clone cat to act and be the same as org. cat, and the expectation you would place on the clone cat is a lot of pressure.

    I vote no on cloning.


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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SendenHorse View Post
    YES! Absolutely.

    I guess its the fact that as a scientist I see that its NOT the same as in nature and every time we change something the change is usually harmful.
    I think the same for IVF as well-- any time we take something outside its natural environment and alter genetics---well that can't be a good thing.

    What is interesting to me that a single gene we have knocked out cause the animals to be very sickly and many times the effects are far reaching-- beyond what we anticipated. I just think cloning invites that much more room for issues.

    The actual SCIENCE is not that strange or complicated, that is not my point. It just doesn't seem like a good idea after all I have studied. I should be its biggest fan having all my experience-- but it made me very wry.

    Agree with Paula-- putting new heart stem cells in a damaged heart causes repair of the tissue. THAT to me is very cool and its working with a framework of what is already exsisting. The stem cells in the studies I have looked at never are 100% reliable or the same as what came before, but its a very promising start. I just wish they worked better.
    You may be a scientist, but I am not sure you are quite right in this either.
    At least you should know not to dismiss any one others work on off hand, as you seem to do there about cloning.


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  4. #24
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    I am not dismissing cloning, it works. I just don't know if its a good idea. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.


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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SendenHorse View Post
    I guess its the fact that as a scientist I see that its NOT the same as in nature and every time we change something the change is usually harmful.
    I think the same for IVF as well-- any time we take something outside its natural environment and alter genetics---well that can't be a good thing.
    IVF has nothing to do with cloning nor with altering genetics. At all.


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  6. #26
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    Cloning humans is illegal. I wish cloning animals was also illegal.


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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Cloning is not about inbreeding, at all.

    Cloning is about producing the same gene combination as much as possible, as close as they can to the original individual those genes are wanted from.

    One of our vets spent the past 25 years cloning horses.
    Some of his techniques are standard today, that he first invented and refined.
    I have seen several of the clones he produced and they were fine horses, if not an exact copy of the individual cloned, as not all genes are expressed in all individuals the same, even in cloning.

    Some day soon, there are already techniques for that, we will be able to clone someone's failing organ and replace it.

    You never know what all comes out of any research, that is the beauty of it.
    The more answers we get, the more questions that poses.
    That is how knowledge advances.
    Does your vet work with the A&M group or Viagen? He might have been doing some research, but he has not been cloning horses for 25 years.... the first US cloned horse was only 7 years ago.

    I did have a chance to meet a couple of cloning experts this year, one who cloned Taz (the racing mule) and the other who cloned the first horse in the US.... Pretty cool stuff!
    Turn off the computer and go ride!



  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noms View Post
    Cloning humans is illegal. I wish cloning animals was also illegal.
    Even thinking about cloning makes me squeamish. I am against ivf too though. Life seems more random or accidental than what is achieved with medical aid. I'm explaining myself badly, I believe that "life" is a spirit received from God, not man. (not God as in church, but energy)
    "All top hat and no canter". *Graureiter*



  9. #29
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    Well we took our fates out of the hands of the gods the moment we understood germ theory and disease theory. I think the lines we draw are arbitrary. For example, organ transplant would have seemed macabre 100 years ago.

    Cloning is a tool. The way civilians look at it is unlikely how it will be used therapeutically. For example, people talk about cloning humans to harvest their parts. As I said; it's not necessary to grow a kidney, just the specialized cells that do the job. So the idea of cloning humans to harvest parts is more science fiction than science.

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).


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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by foggybok View Post
    Does your vet work with the A&M group or Viagen? He might have been doing some research, but he has not been cloning horses for 25 years.... the first US cloned horse was only 7 years ago.

    I did have a chance to meet a couple of cloning experts this year, one who cloned Taz (the racing mule) and the other who cloned the first horse in the US.... Pretty cool stuff!
    We don't use him much any more because we are not breeding and because his practice has changed and he is gone much of the time, we use a former associate of his now for most of our work.
    I meant he had been doing reproductive work for many years.

    He is an excellent veterinarian, very sought after by top performance trainers and a wonderful person also:

    http://quarterhorsenews.com/index.ph...tic-quest.html



  11. #31
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    I read something somewhere recently about gene expression during gestation, and the point was that vast portions of DNA are available to be expressed during the development of the fetus, but not all of it is expressed.

    The hormonal, physical, and emotional state of the mother carrying the fetus can cause a selection of specific traits to become expresses over others, due to variations in the environment within the womb that can occur during the gestation time period.

    So if the mother can have an effect on genetic expression, then it stands to reason that the only truly identical clones would have the same mother, gestating at the same time, such as in identical twins.

    But then one might foresee that even with identical twins, nutrient and hormonal exposure may not be exactly duplicated for both twins due to the variations of vasculature in the uterine wall, variations in placenta development, and variance in blood cuculation patterns within and around the uterus itself.

    If the above is true, then the cloning of truly identical beings are probably scientifically unlikely.

    Sure the DNA might match, but the genes that end up being expressed may vary enough to create a physically different living being.



  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gestalt View Post
    Even thinking about cloning makes me squeamish. I am against ivf too though. Life seems more random or accidental than what is achieved with medical aid. I'm explaining myself badly, I believe that "life" is a spirit received from God, not man. (not God as in church, but energy)
    I have a feeling the roughly 5 million people conceived through IVF would probably take exception to your thought that their lives, or spirits if you will, are lesser than those conceived through intercourse. What about those conceived through AI? That's a medical intervention as well. Are they also lacking in "spirit"?


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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by SendenHorse View Post
    yes, its amazing that people still think its going to be the same animal... Uh No.
    It's amazing to me just how many people keep making what seems to me to be such a ridiculous assumption about others' expectations.
    "Things should be as simple as possible,
    but no simpler." - Einstein

    “So what’s up with years of lessons? You still can’t ride a damn horse?!”


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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamantane View Post
    It's amazing to me just how many people keep making what seems to me to be such a ridiculous assumption about others' expectations.
    There are varied reasons why some may want clones from certain animals.
    The article I linked to explains some of those.

    I think that Scamper, many times World Champion barrel racing horse, was a gelding and he was cloned to see if, as a stallion, if it was possible to use his genes thru a clone, the offspring would also be some of them above average individuals.



  15. #35
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    As far as I can tell, I'm the only one posting here who ever has written out a four-figure check to get a critter gene-banked and after reviewing the literature both scientific and philosophical, composed a detailed syllabus and used it to facilitate sessions held over the course of years about the issues and ethics of cloning (human or otherwise). Or either of these.

    Yes, we joked about those fatuous literary and Hollywood confections in the sessions.

    Can't speak for others, but I have a very realistic take on nature v. nurture, and a very realistic expectation for what will turn up when Otto is cloned into "Ottwo".

    Since purebred seal-point Siamese cats invariably breed true to type, I know that "Ottwo" will look virtually indistinguishable grossly and in markings to his "identical twin" progenitor, but apart from that all there will be is a lump of kitty potential who was brought to term in a different in-utero environment with more or fewer siblings and a different epigenetic influences, and subsequently will develop in a grossly different external situation, and in any event by age 1-1/2 will not have spent two or more months on his own roaming free as a stray where gods alone know what occurred before turning up at a barn.

    The best I can hope for in terms of environment is to have Otto around to provide some influence.
    "Things should be as simple as possible,
    but no simpler." - Einstein

    “So what’s up with years of lessons? You still can’t ride a damn horse?!”


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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by mswillie View Post
    IVF has nothing to do with cloning nor with altering genetics. At all.
    yes, but its taking something out of the natural env't. That was my point.



  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamantane View Post
    It's amazing to me just how many people keep making what seems to me to be such a ridiculous assumption about others' expectations.
    Didn't you know that COTH is full of mind readers?


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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by SendenHorse View Post
    yes, but its taking something out of the natural env't. That was my point.
    This is what you said: "any time we take something outside its natural environment and alter genetics---well that can't be a good thing."

    Why not? Again I'm sure the majority of the roughly 5 million people conceived through IVF, their parents, and in some cases their children probably think it was a pretty good thing.


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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    We don't use him much any more because we are not breeding and because his practice has changed and he is gone much of the time, we use a former associate of his now for most of our work.
    I meant he had been doing reproductive work for many years.

    He is an excellent veterinarian, very sought after by top performance trainers and a wonderful person also:

    http://quarterhorsenews.com/index.ph...tic-quest.html
    Ay yes, Dr V has been doing repro for a long time. He learned cloning from the Viagen folks a few years ago, which I figured he must have.... The article you linked mentions Dr H, who I had dinner with earlier this year. She's a hoot! I loved talking to her. Her team cloned the first horse in the USA.
    Turn off the computer and go ride!



  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    There are varied reasons why some may want clones from certain animals.
    The article I linked to explains some of those.

    I think that Scamper, many times World Champion barrel racing horse, was a gelding and he was cloned to see if, as a stallion, if it was possible to use his genes thru a clone, the offspring would also be some of them above average individuals.
    Or the cloning of Taz, as mules obviously can not breed either
    Turn off the computer and go ride!



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