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  1. #81
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    May. 2, 2012
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    AIKEN SC
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    Quote Originally Posted by siegi b. View Post
    So I just received my last COTH magazine and lo and behold, there's an article talking about the "USEF Weighing in on Drugs and Calming!! Seems like the chief administrator of the USEF's Drug and Medication program, Stephen Schumacher, DVM has been working in conjunction with several other folks for 18 months to make sure the USEF, unlike virtually every other national federation, may keep its own rules rather than adopting the much more stringent FEI standards for medications and medications violations in USEF classes! "

    I am so glad to hear that they worked so hard on that..... NOT!!
    And they sound like they're proud of this achievement!! Way to not go!
    It's typical. He focused on GABA and USEF's relatively quick response to that drug but ignored the fact that this has been going on for years and involves over medication,not just calming meds. I think there have been only a few GABA violation hearings but still lots of other med and calming violations in the past year.

    Hunters are not an FEI sport so the excuse is USEF has no need to enforce any FEI rules for that discipline.

    But he offers no solution. Instead of finding out why all this happens and adjusting rules to make calming not needed he points out enforcement as a big shiny star for USEF. Fix the problem, not a witch hunt.
    Fan of Sea Accounts



  2. #82
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    Oct. 14, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donella View Post
    Discusting. I can't believe drugging is tolerated like that. If that were a dressage show you would never see the inside of a ring again.
    You are kidding right? Same governing body, same drug rules. I wouldn't be surprised if plenty dressage horses med sheets look pretty similar.



  3. #83
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    Dec. 9, 2008
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    Maryland USA
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    I do believe it should be 3 strikes and your out. 2 Strikes and you are out for a year. Here are some of the problems that lead to the use, although their actions still are not excusable.

    1 - The classes are not designed to be helpful for young riders or young horses. The pinnicle of the sport is judged like the lower levels.

    2 - We ask the horses to do to much, they are not robots.

    3 - Trainers make money taking a low quality horse and druggin it, because the horses don't have to be that athletic, just quiet and compliant.

    4 - Trainers don't ride their own horses enough to compensate for all of the bad rides performed by their students. SO when the horses get fed up with being yanked on, bounced on, and kicked they start showing bad behavoir.

    5 - We don't demand that in order for a rider to show, they must have demonstrated that they are worthy enough to show. However, trainers don't make any money when the students stay home, so mask the systems and bring them all.

    6 - We don't demand that our "Trainers" are qualified, certified, or competant. Those that aren't will do what ever they can to compete with those that are. If you don't know the proper way to prepare a show horse and rider, then you look for the easy way. In Europe you can be fined heavily if you advertise that you are a trainer if you aren't certified.

    There is a responsibility that we are handing over to trainers freely without demanding a level of competancy. I think this is our problem. Our youngest riders are learning from people that have no right teaching. Our trainers should be certified, educated, qualified, and competant. If your certification was on the line, you wouldn't take the risk. We need to professionalize the position so we can hold them accountable.

    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com


    2 members found this post helpful.

  4. #84
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    Dec. 19, 2005
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    Some where in the middle of nowhere.
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    RyTimMick your last numbered post brings up a good question to mind. Does Europe have similar issues where drugging is concerned ? How is it handled there and what is vs not permissible. Is it as prevalent as we find it here in the US?
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"



  5. #85
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    Feb. 5, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by PINE TREE FARM SC View Post
    When a horse can jump every fence in great form but miss a lead change and get a 40 score tell me how it's about the jump.
    But a horse with great lead changes and and crappy form will also get a low score. I also know that Enchanted Forest swapped in front of a fence at pony finals and still won the class.



  6. #86
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    Feb. 5, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by volvo_240 View Post
    You are kidding right? Same governing body, same drug rules. I wouldn't be surprised if plenty dressage horses med sheets look pretty similar.
    Yes they do. None of the meds that were on Humble's med chart were illegal. Of course no one really knows what was in the syringe when he went down.



  7. #87
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    Apr. 25, 2006
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    out west
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    I know at some of the bigger horseshoes they have night watch. They walk around and check the barns to make sure horses have water and aren't sick or acting weird.

    Right now it is an option, but could easily be made mandatory.

    That would at least stop no water and tying horses legs up.

    So sad. I have a very fancy up in coming 4 year old that could be a star, but it scares me to even think what could happen if I sold him to a hunter barn.

    Even as a kid I remember giving Robaxin to my hunter in his mash and occasionally banamine, never in an injection and I would poultice and pack his feet if the ground was bad and ride him in the mornings to stretch him out. He showed from 4 to 17 before I retired him.

    Owners should become more aware, but for a lot it is out of sight out of mind. Most don't even tack up their own horses anymore, or even brush them! I have seen some that can't even put a bridle on!

    Sad.



  8. #88
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    Sep. 14, 2000
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    Goochland, VA
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    There are good trainers out there who are capable of bringing a young horse along without the drugs. But they are getting to be fewer and you have to do your homework.
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #89
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    Jun. 25, 2006
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    MA
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    WRT horse watch at horse shows, I don't think that is going to solve the problem. It is mandatory at some shows I've been to. I've also had them write comments on the sheet about a horse that wasn't even at the show! (horse hadn't arrived yet, they wrote multiple comments throughout the night). I am not convinced they do much, except take my money. I have greater faith in the braiders to call if something is actually wrong, honestly.

    This situation has gone on far too long. I wrote on the topic on the H/J forum, but I think the penalties need to be MUCH more severe, and include penalizing the owners heavily. People won't feel so cavalier about hiring trainers that are repeatedly set down for drugging if they have to pay large fines if it happens with their horses. I also think that any horse with a positive drug test should be excluded from any USEF sanctioned finals events and year end awards for that year. Hit the owners both in the pocket book and in the ego. I agree with those who say the penalties should be progressive also, and implement a 3 strikes and you're out rule for both owners and trainers. For many of the people playing at the highest levels of the sport, the current penalties aren't significant enough, IMO.

    As a horse owner, I feel that the buck stops with me with regard to my horse's care and training. I would NEVER allow any of this crap into my horse's system or training routine. This entire situation shows an appalling lack of horsemanship and sportsmanship. I have been riding in USEF/ AHSA hunter/ jumper shows since the mid-late 80s, and these practices just make me ashamed and discouraged.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  10. #90
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    Mar. 1, 2005
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    Wellborn, Florida
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    I agree with most of your points, Tim. Just a couple of refineig thoughts:

    1) The problem is not that we are asking our horses too much. The problem is that we are asking horses that are not properly trained and conditioned too much. I often prepare my coming 5 YOs to do their YJC classes by showing them in the high performance working hunter classes. Jumping a couple of 8-jump easy courses with no pressure does not take anything out of a properly trained horse.

    2) About trainer certification. i looked into doing the USHJA trainer certification. You need three recommendations, attend a clinic and take an online test. Is it for real?????????????????????

    Quote Originally Posted by RyTimMick View Post
    I do believe it should be 3 strikes and your out. 2 Strikes and you are out for a year. Here are some of the problems that lead to the use, although their actions still are not excusable.

    1 - The classes are not designed to be helpful for young riders or young horses. The pinnicle of the sport is judged like the lower levels.

    2 - We ask the horses to do to much, they are not robots.

    3 - Trainers make money taking a low quality horse and druggin it, because the horses don't have to be that athletic, just quiet and compliant.

    4 - Trainers don't ride their own horses enough to compensate for all of the bad rides performed by their students. SO when the horses get fed up with being yanked on, bounced on, and kicked they start showing bad behavoir.

    5 - We don't demand that in order for a rider to show, they must have demonstrated that they are worthy enough to show. However, trainers don't make any money when the students stay home, so mask the systems and bring them all.

    6 - We don't demand that our "Trainers" are qualified, certified, or competant. Those that aren't will do what ever they can to compete with those that are. If you don't know the proper way to prepare a show horse and rider, then you look for the easy way. In Europe you can be fined heavily if you advertise that you are a trainer if you aren't certified.

    There is a responsibility that we are handing over to trainers freely without demanding a level of competancy. I think this is our problem. Our youngest riders are learning from people that have no right teaching. Our trainers should be certified, educated, qualified, and competant. If your certification was on the line, you wouldn't take the risk. We need to professionalize the position so we can hold them accountable.

    Tim



  11. #91
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    Apr. 4, 2006
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    An American Living In Ireland
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    I can't speak for Europe, but in Ireland, in SJ, we are governed by FEI rules at all levels. I'm sure it's probably similar with the other disciplines but I don't know. Now obviously every horse is not checked but they do spot check. So we don't wing it. I know if any of my horses need treating for whatever, the vet will give you the withdrawal period. But this is jumper shows I'm going to. Hunters here are different and not usually at jumper shows unless its like a summer ag show. Still the SJI comps run under their rules wherever.

    Tim, I agree with your post. Well written.

    Terri
    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.



  12. #92
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    Oct. 21, 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyTimMick View Post

    3 - Trainers make money taking a low quality horse and druggin it, because the horses don't have to be that athletic, just quiet and compliant.

    6 - We don't demand that our "Trainers" are qualified, certified, or competant. Those that aren't will do what ever they can to compete with those that are. If you don't know the proper way to prepare a show horse and rider, then you look for the easy way. In Europe you can be fined heavily if you advertise that you are a trainer if you aren't certified.
    I actually disagree with these two points. What I saw at a top H/J barn that drugs A LOT is the opposite. To win you need a brilliant, beautiful, amazing moving and amazing jumping horse that goes around like it's half dead - you CANNOT have both! Those gorgeous athletic horses with back cracking jumps and their knees up to their eyeballs are....ATHLETIC. So you take a horse that is a brilliant, wonderful horse and then expect it to go around half dead. THAT is what I witnessed.

    On the second point, I also witnessed truly gifted, top trainers that have to deliver this. These are trainers that could and have jumped around regular working hunter courses on OTTBs and made it look easy and beautiful, without any drugs. But that's not what's winning now, and in order to make money and win at the current shows, they now have big, fancy, athletic imports that have to go around like robots. And from what I witnessed, it's nearly impossibly to obtain naturally what is winning in the ring.

    It's very sad.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  13. #93
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    Feb. 5, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perfect Pony View Post
    I actually disagree with these two points. What I saw at a top H/J barn that drugs A LOT is the opposite. To win you need a brilliant, beautiful, amazing moving and amazing jumping horse that goes around like it's half dead - you CANNOT have both! Those gorgeous athletic horses with back cracking jumps and their knees up to their eyeballs are....ATHLETIC. So you take a horse that is a brilliant, wonderful horse and then expect it to go around half dead. THAT is what I witnessed.

    On the second point, I also witnessed truly gifted, top trainers that have to deliver this. These are trainers that could and have jumped around regular working hunter courses on OTTBs and made it look easy and beautiful, without any drugs. But that's not what's winning now, and in order to make money and win at the current shows, they now have big, fancy, athletic imports that have to go around like robots. And from what I witnessed, it's nearly impossibly to obtain naturally what is winning in the ring.

    It's very sad.
    Very true. Go on Youtube and look at all the top hunter rounds from WEF and Indoors and you see all that was mentioned above.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  14. #94
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    Dec. 2, 2002
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    Waterford, VA USA
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    So what does it take to get some of the folks that could possibly do something about it to act??

    We have these discussions and everybody agrees that something needs to be done. Does it ever?

    Just asking....
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.



  15. #95
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    Dec. 14, 2007
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    Wilsonville, Ontario, CANADA
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    One barn I was at eons ago, was at the top of his game. Coached Olympic level riders and the rest of the clients were very wealthy and had nothing but the very best horses. They also rarely rode but expected the horses to be quiet and complacent when they did

    One such rider bought a green 4 year old upon the recommendation of this trainer and one day when I was there, she came up to ride him and I guess the Atravet hadnt kicked in fully or enough wasnt given or something, but he started to act up and she got scared and jumped off. Trainer got a rope and a lunge whip and tied a front leg up and proceeded to crack the lunge whip and chase him around on 3 legs until he went down and stayed down, shaking and covered in lather. No matter how many times he cracked the whip at him, he just lay there, so he untied the leg, got him up, put the girl on him and said "There. The fights all out of him now. Now you can ride him ..."

    Another barn, again - at the very top of their game, had 100ml bottle of Atravet in their medicine chest. NO horse EVER got turned out as they "might get hurt" (well - except for the one that no one liked anymore, that they couldnt sell, that was insured for a lot of money, that got turned out in the hilliest of paddocks AFTER freezing rain had turned it into a skating rink and lo and behold he broke a leg running around and had to be euthanized ...). Every horse for every client was given the Atravet before the client came to ride. The horse was tacked up and ready and waiting for them and the Atravet had taken hold, and they were good horses every time for their owners. Same with sale horses. LTD in the morning, Atravet before their arrival. THey were always good horses for the prospective buyers ...

    My 25ml bottle of Atravet would expire long before I had used more than maybe 1 or 2 mls of it. They went through 100ml bottles weekly. It was truly insane ...

    I dont know what the answer is. Take away the drugs and the abuse will escalate. New methods will be found to have them comatose and complacent. Where money, fame and glory are at stake, nothing is too "over the top" or taboo

    It will never stop. There will always be a new drug to try, a new training "method" to experiment with. And the horses, as always, will bear the brunt of it ...


    1 members found this post helpful.

  16. #96
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    Dec. 2, 2002
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    That is what's wrong with the hunter environment, TrueColors, and you couldn't have put it any more succinctly. Why does anybody put up with it? Is it worth the possible ribbons to be gained with these questionable wins? Why isn't there a governing unit to regulate this stuff? I am so over all horse sports federations, it's not even funny!

    Time to get out of the breeding business!
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  17. #97
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    Oct. 4, 2003
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    Oklahoma
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    Absolutely nothing wrong with giving Adequan and Legend. These are medications to prolong a horse's joint health. http://www.adequan.com/joint-health-facts.aspx

    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyHalter View Post
    That list is not far off of normal for hunters and eq horses. The jumpers are not immune, either. It would not be unusual to see a hunter receive, eg, Banamine, Depo, Dex, Robaxin, Adequan and Legend. Sad but true. And let's not forget a Ralgro implant to give the hunter a nice big neck...

    Edited to add that it's not just the high performance horses. It is indeed the 3' and 2'6" horses too.
    Silver Creek Farms - home of Apiro & Validation
    Visit us on facebook!



  18. #98
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    Dec. 14, 2007
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    siegi - its not just the hunters and Eq horses though. Its the jumpers, the dressage horses as well ... the WP horses, the Saddlebreds, You name it ...

    20-30 years ago when I was showing heavily, the stuff that went on with the top riders - the ones that were idolized and spoken about in revered tones was sickening. Wire fireplace brushes down the front of their legs before the class and then turpentine sprayed on before they went into the ring

    When Loss of Use insurance was available, the collusion between trainers who would split the proceeds of the insurance payouts. Trainer "A" sells Trainer "B" a lame puke for mega bucks (but of course it was all a shell game ... no money really changed hands for that amount) and Trainer "B" keeps said lame horse on meds for XX weeks or months to keep it sound enough, then pulls it off and says "Oh Dear. Fluffy is lame and cant be a jumper anymore. Mr Insurance Agent please send the cheque for the $100,000 he was insured for to me right away."

    The electric shin boots and bell boots that would deliver shocks in mid air to "teach" them to jump higher. The WP trainers that tie the bits to their tails to "teach" them to bend properly and then turn them out for hours in that get up. That dressage horse on FB that was front and centre a few months ago with his jaw tied to his chest with binder twine to "teach" him to flex at the poll properly. The tie downs to "teach" the WP horses to drag their noses on the ground. Stripping the neck muscle out of Arabs to give their necks a more "Sculpted" and "pleasing" look. Taking your Breeding Stock Paint to the nice doctor that has a book full of patterns that you can pick from so you can choose the exact shape and size you want and the location on the body so he can "burn" it onto your foal and you now have a Regular registry foals that is worth SO much more and has SO many more showing options open to it. Taking your peskey 14.3hh "Hony" to the nice doctor who splits open his withers and shaves down the wither cap so he now permanently cards at 14.2hh and is worth SO much more now as a 14.2hh "Pony". Ginger up the anus of the Saddlebreds and Hackneys. Soring the Walking Horses. Terrorizing the Saddlebreds and Hackneys in their stalls with the lunge whip so they come out with "expression" and "animation". Nerving the ears and tails of the WP horses so they cant pin their ears or swish their tails in annoyance as Suzy bounces up and down on their backs.

    No discipline is exempt. Its truly enough to make you sit down and cry. It really is ...


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  19. #99
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    Oct. 3, 2012
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    Absolutely nothing wrong with giving Adequan and Legend. These are medications to prolong a horse's joint health. http://www.adequan.com/joint-health-facts.aspx
    I actually use both Adequan and Legend. My point was more that these horses are receiving six shots per show week or more. While many substances are available for oral administration, the general thought is that the injectables give a better effect (and in this case affect). e.g. Robaxin in pill or powder is not thought to have the desired sedative effect. That list also leaves off Sarapin and magnesium, the previously popular "Easy Hunter," Carolina Gold, and the like. Show hunters and Eq horses are pin cushions.
    Last edited by MuddyHalter; Dec. 31, 2012 at 12:10 AM.


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  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyHalter View Post
    Show hunters and Eq horses are pin cushions.
    And not to mention the many hunters that are routinely given Marquis as they head out on a circuit - even without a positive EPM diagnosis, or even any EPM symptoms.


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