[PINE TREE FARM SC]

A Code of Conduct is not enforceable. It is a recommendation, nothing more. The problem is that the USEF has no legal authority to make Mandarino turn over the necropsy results. None. And she makes a LOT of noise about lawsuits, to a LOT of people. Including this magazine/forum. So, with the law on her side, USEF's hands are tied. Not e causing them as I am sure there ARE things that can be done.

It will cost a great deal of money to have enough vets on site to be able to serve a show the size of WEF. And then what about the off site barns? You can't mandate what happens on private property. Is everyone ready for their show fees to increase dramatically to cover this?

I am afraid the only path is zero tolerance as the FEI enforces it.

Agree about the code of conduct. Not enforceable.
But USEF needs to start applying harsher penalties for those caught multiple times, no matter who they are. I'd like to see a three stikes and you are out for a year rule plus a huge fine.
If you look at the USEF Hearing commitee reports many BNT trainers appear on the lists yet they rarely even get a suspension. The fines are so small that they come under the heading of 'cost of doing business'.

Yes it costs a lot to have vets on hand to test. However in the NE there are many C rated one day shows. In fact most of the shows fall in this category. Some of them go 20 years in between having any drug testing. One guess what happens. LOL

But I'm not sure what your comment about off site barns refers to. If the horse is showing and meets the criteria for whatever the testers have selected it will get tested regardless if it's stabling on the show grounds or not.

There is a rule change proposal that would allow horsse to have some expression in hunter classes. That would be a step in the right direction. But somehow I think the 'old boys' club will stop this change.

I've been showing for a lot longer than most people on this board. Most of my horses end up in the jumper ring because I can not condone drugging or LTD ( Lunge till Dead).

[ahf]

... But USEF needs to start applying harsher penalties for those caught multiple times, no matter who they are. I'd like to see a three strikes and you are out for a year rule plus a huge fine...

Outstanding idea.

[Sonesta]

Why not three strikes and you are out FOREVER?

[Noms]

Why not three strikes and you are out FOREVER?

How about 1 stike and you're out forever?

[Sonesta]

How about 1 stike and you're out forever?

Because I can actually see there being a chance of some sort of accident that might cause a horse to test positive for something (remember the case of the ointment that said on the label that it didn't contain any banned substances when in fact it DID and a trainer got nailed because they had used it on the horse's back after a ride?).

So, I'd be willing to give them one strike - and maybe even two. But three strikes and you are GONE, baby!

[FairWeather]

A Code of Conduct is not enforceable. It is a recommendation, nothing more. The problem is that the USEF has no legal authority to make Mandarino turn over the necropsy results. None. And she makes a LOT of noise about lawsuits, to a LOT of people. Including this magazine/forum. So, with the law on her side, USEF's hands are tied. Not e causing them as I am sure there ARE things that can be done.

It will cost a great deal of money to have enough vets on site to be able to serve a show the size of WEF. And then what about the off site barns? You can't mandate what happens on private property. Is everyone ready for their show fees to increase dramatically to cover this?

I am afraid the only path is zero tolerance as the FEI enforces it.

Forgive me if this has been mentioned, but you think the AAEP would be ALL OVER THIS. Can you imagine the money to be made if vets had to give every injection? Shocking they aren't, actually, considering the tenuous grasp they have on the racing industry.

[MuddyHalter]

3) this medication list is much closer to normal for many hunter AND equitation barns than anyone would care to think

If that list of "cocktails" was normal to you then you are really part of the problem. Most ammy hunters never get out of the 3"division, so give me a break.

That list is not far off of normal for hunters and eq horses. The jumpers are not immune, either. It would not be unusual to see a hunter receive, eg, Banamine, Depo, Dex, Robaxin, Adequan and Legend. Sad but true. And let's not forget a Ralgro implant to give the hunter a nice big neck...

Edited to add that it's not just the high performance horses. It is indeed the 3' and 2'6" horses too.

[3Dogs]

Late t THIS party but I know someone out there has commented re hunter trainers. So many horses they have...so many Ammies to keep happy ...I go to shows and the ONLY trainers worth their salt are the ones out riding their "need to quiet"charges or have their students out there! At 5 am or 6 am! I keep track of those! All the others shooting Mag into the veins of your horses? Be gone!...you are No longer horse trainers

[Mistysmom]

This thread has been quite enlightening albeit very, very sad! I have to agree that until good training is rewarded and a zero policy towards drugs is adopted, nothing will change. The USEF must start to apply harsher penalties for this activity. I'm sure everyone loves their horses but this thread really convinces me how lucky my guys really are!

[Noms]

That list is not far off of normal for hunters and eq horses. The jumpers are not immune, either. It would not be unusual to see a hunter receive, eg, Banamine, Depo, Dex, Robaxin, Adequan and Legend. Sad but true. And let's not forget a Ralgro implant to give the hunter a nice big neck...

Edited to add that it's not just the high performance horses. It is indeed the 3' and 2'6" horses too.

Those medications are NOT used in my horses. I hardly use bute. I use the ass in saddle method of keeping my horses sound and ready for their jobs.

[lauriep]

Agree about the code of conduct. Not enforceable.
But USEF needs to start applying harsher penalties for those caught multiple times, no matter who they are. I'd like to see a three stikes and you are out for a year rule plus a huge fine.
If you look at the USEF Hearing commitee reports many BNT trainers appear on the lists yet they rarely even get a suspension. The fines are so small that they come under the heading of 'cost of doing business'.

Yes it costs a lot to have vets on hand to test. However in the NE there are many C rated one day shows. In fact most of the shows fall in this category. Some of them go 20 years in between having any drug testing. One guess what happens. LOL

But I'm not sure what your comment about off site barns refers to. If the horse is showing and meets the criteria for whatever the testers have selected it will get tested regardless if it's stabling on the show grounds or not.

There is a rule change proposal that would allow horsse to have some expression in hunter classes. That would be a step in the right direction. But somehow I think the 'old boys' club will stop this change.

I've been showing for a lot longer than most people on this board. Most of my horses end up in the jumper ring because I can not condone drugging or LTD ( Lunge till Dead).

I was referring to the idea of only a vet being able to administer injections. Thinking of WEF where so many have farms adjacent to the show grounds. No way to enforce that rule offsite.

[PINE TREE FARM SC]

Late t THIS party but I know someone out there has commented re hunter trainers. So many horses they have...so many Ammies to keep happy ...I go to shows and the ONLY trainers worth their salt are the ones out riding their "need to quiet"charges or have their students out there! At 5 am or 6 am! I keep track of those! All the others shooting Mag into the veins of your horses? Be gone!...you are No longer horse trainers

Right.

A big part of the problem is how Hunters are judged today. Over the years there has been an increasing trend to make lead changes and drop dead quiet more important than how the horse jumps.

We can't go back to the bad old days of no regulation. But in those days the Hunter Ring didn't exist. It was the Outside Course. Leads didn't count and when there were 30 strides between jumps nobody counted strides. No oxers, no vertical to oxer lines. Horses could play in the corner and nobody cared. You could use whatever tack was appropriate for the horse. Martingales were for a functional purpose and not an item of apparel. And D bits were rare.

A lot of it is fads. And the cycles repeat themselves. But once hunters moved into tiny rings the game changed. Some think for the better, some think for the worse.
The problem is with the current methods of judging you have three choices, drug, Lunge Till Dead or Ride Till Dead ( your comment about trainers riding in the wee hours), or find another job for the horse.

I didn't advocate for one strike and you are out because:
- Everybody can make a mistake ( once or twice)
- The Drug rules change and sometimes change quickly so it takes a bit for the message to get out
- Exhibitors and trainers still seem unable to understand that herbal preparations often contain illegal substances, sometimes given a new name to disguise what the component really is. And people continue to get caught using this junk. But once they get a violation they are much more careful.

But I still feel that harsher penalties and a re-write of how Hunters are judged ( major and minor faults) and better, more traditional course design would be steps in the right direction.

[siegi b.]

So I just received my last COTH magazine and lo and behold, there's an article talking about the "USEF Weighing in on Drugs and Calming!! Seems like the chief administrator of the USEF's Drug and Medication program, Stephen Schumacher, DVM has been working in conjunction with several other folks for 18 months to make sure the USEF, unlike virtually every other national federation, may keep its own rules rather than adopting the much more stringent FEI standards for medications and medications violations in USEF classes! "

I am so glad to hear that they worked so hard on that..... NOT!!
And they sound like they're proud of this achievement!! Way to not go!

[vineyridge]

So I just received my last COTH magazine and lo and behold, there's an article talking about the "USEF Weighing in on Drugs and Calming!! Seems like the chief administrator of the USEF's Drug and Medication program, Stephen Schumacher, DVM has been working in conjunction with several other folks for 18 months to make sure the USEF, unlike virtually every other national federation, may keep its own rules rather than adopting the much more stringent FEI standards for medications and medications violations in USEF classes! "

I am so glad to hear that they worked so hard on that..... NOT!!
And they sound like they're proud of this achievement!! Way to not go!

And this, my friends, is the USEF in a nutshell. Totally and completely bankrupt morally. Someone ought to send the COTH story to the NYTimes. It makes a sham of everything that John Long says.

[lauriep]

I don't think of it as morally bankrupt. I think of it as the US always having to be different, always reinventing the wheel because we are so "special" and so much smarter. I think of it the same way I think when our FDA has to COMPLETELY start from scratch when approving a drug from a foreign country, even if said drug is coming from a Western European country, has been in use for YEARS and has all of THEIR testing available. But no, because we are so special, we have to rake x more years, and money, to approve it here. Same mindset, IMO.

[PonyPenny]

Right.

A big part of the problem is how Hunters are judged today. Over the years there has been an increasing trend to make lead changes and drop dead quiet more important than how the horse jumps.

I disagree. How the horse jumps is still extremely important along with perfect lead changes and loping the lines. Look at videos of top hunters like Inclusive, Dedication, Garfield, etc. They all jump with perfect form.

[feather river]

it is not going to stop--no one at the top of the sport wants this business to change--from Moroney on down--just like politics in Washington. It just keeps going and going and going--and totally out of control. Send someone to prison, and that will make it change!

[Lynnwood]

it is not going to stop--no one at the top of the sport wants this business to change--from Moroney on down--just like politics in Washington. It just keeps going and going and going--and totally out of control. Send someone to prison, and that will make it change!

To send someone to prison you have to have a prosecutable offense and someone willing to prosecute. It seems at this time they are unwilling to do so.

I do find it paradox-able that the same organization passed down judgement on those who were killing horses for insurance fraud but is still refraining from doing the same to those willing to kill a horse for a primary colored two dollar ribbon.

[Equine Reproduction]

And this, my friends, is the USEF in a nutshell. Totally and completely bankrupt morally. Someone ought to send the COTH story to the NYTimes. It makes a sham of everything that John Long says.

But honestly, is it "just" the USEF? I agree with you and Siegi...it's a sham, it's a shame, it's morally and ethically corrupt. But with all of that said, what the heck are the owners and riders doing? Obviously, they are endorsing it if they are allowing it to occur. Shame not only on USEF, but on those that turn a blind eye to it. Shame on those "trainers" that use chemicals to attain a "better" ride. Whatever happened to the idea of actually training a horse?

[PINE TREE FARM SC]

I disagree. How the horse jumps is still extremely important along with perfect lead changes and loping the lines. Look at videos of top hunters like Inclusive, Dedication, Garfield, etc. They all jump with perfect form.

When a horse can jump every fence in great form but miss a lead change and get a 40 score tell me how it's about the jump.