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  1. #1
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    Dec. 9, 2008
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    Default This is so sad.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/28/us...anted=all&_r=0

    I know this isn't really a breeding subject, but it affects us anyways. I think G. Morris correctly stated that it is stunting our young riders. J. Winkel stated right saying we should train our horses better.

    THIS IS ABSOLUTELY APPAULING. I am not naieve in that I didn't know that Hunters were doing this, but I am shocked at how tollerant everyone is to the blatant abuse of these poor horses. Treating them like pin cushins because we don't want to take the time to train our horses and riders. We should be ashamed.

    If I ever catch wind of one of my horses being treated this way, I will bring all powers to bare to publically embarrass, and legally prosecute the abuses. Why isn't anyone else?

    What does it say about our trainers if they have to drug the horses so they can allow their untrained students to ride them? What does it say about the rider that knowingly allows the horse to be drugged because they aren't a good enough rider. You either aren't a good trainer of horses, students or both. OR maybe, just maybe you have to BUY good horses, train them up properply, before selling them for an arm and a leg. Every discipline has its demons, but the hunter world has blindly gone on, way too long with out addressing this one. The sport rewards bad behavoir, so it has begotten bad behavoir.

    What a shame.

    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com


    9 members found this post helpful.

  2. #2
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    Oct. 6, 2004
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    Default

    How could you possibly keep up with all those meds!!! HOLY CRAP

    She killed that pony plain and simple and I hope she never crosses my path. There is NO reason to give all those drugs on even a sick animal in those mixes. RIDICULOUS. Who rides with this lady??
    The rider casts his heart over the fence,
    the horse jumps in pursuit of it.

    –Hans-Heinrich Isenbart


    2 members found this post helpful.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar. 8, 2004
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    Baltimore, MD
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    Default

    None of those meds killed the pony. My money is on mag.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov. 30, 2005
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    Northfield MN
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    None of those meds killed the pony. My money is on mag.
    Agree

    I'm glad to see a judge speaking out because IMHO they are the biggest problem. I have watched many professional classes in disgust as very obviously sedated horses are rewarded for being able to crawl around the course with zero expression. Ugh!

    I just wish it was done only for poor riders to be able to show. Blech. (yes, that's sarcasm)


    1 members found this post helpful.

  5. #5
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    Default

    Oh yes...I agree about the Mag. I give an oral supp to a couple of my horses but I would NEVER administer it in a shot format EVER.
    The rider casts his heart over the fence,
    the horse jumps in pursuit of it.

    –Hans-Heinrich Isenbart



  6. #6
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    Default

    As breeders we all strive to produce the best horse possible and to think that one may end up in a barn like that really depresses me.
    The rider casts his heart over the fence,
    the horse jumps in pursuit of it.

    –Hans-Heinrich Isenbart


    4 members found this post helpful.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct. 21, 2003
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    8,695

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by europa View Post
    As breeders we all strive to produce the best horse possible and to think that one may end up in a barn like that really depresses me.
    If you are breeding high end hunters chances are pretty good that's exactly what is happening to them.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr. 28, 2009
    Posts
    354

    Default

    What a shame indeed. How can the drive to win outweigh the desire to keep a helpless animal in good health? But it's happening all the time. It's sickening.



  9. #9
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    Default

    I rode "A" hunters that I trained myself and I never used a single drug or supplement on ANY of them! I find this disgraceful.

    I understand there are so called ACCEPTABLE and legal limits and products that you can use but when you see a freaking chart on all the horses in someone's barn and it includes daily syringes there is A PROBLEM.
    The rider casts his heart over the fence,
    the horse jumps in pursuit of it.

    –Hans-Heinrich Isenbart



  10. #10
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    Default

    Everything I do medically for my horses is exactly that...to keep them healthy and to ensure their well being. This is all about WINNING at all costs. Nothing else.
    The rider casts his heart over the fence,
    the horse jumps in pursuit of it.

    –Hans-Heinrich Isenbart


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #11
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    Nov. 30, 2005
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    Default

    The fastest way to fix it is for judges to stop pinning it. I have seen no sign of that happening at the high performance end of the hunters, much less in the lower levels.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan. 17, 2010
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    233

    Default

    The NYT has been publishing stuff periodically on the excessive use and abuse of meds in the racing industry. Now they get a chance to put the spotlight on USEF and the show world.

    This has been discussed in the h/j forum since the initial event. USEF comes off looking pretty inept, from not securing the relevant evidence (the syringe and needle, so they could be tested), to their conclusion, after the trainer refused to answer questions, that they could not discipline her because they lacked information.

    There is a written Code of Conduct that USEF requires of all riders for FEI events, etc. It should be easy to require that USEF require the same of all those certified to sign an entry blank as "trainer", and to include in the CoC or other enforceable rules the obligation of the trainer to provide information to USEF as requested for any purpose. They are of course allowed not to do so, but they will be suspended until they do. They may not have to answer the question, but USEF then is under no obligation to allow them to continue in sanctioned shows.

    Allowing the trainer in this episode to refuse to answer and then evade penalty for lack of information seems pointless.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  13. #13
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    Default

    Pinning has nothing to do with it really. A well trained hunter will go around just like that. That is what let's you win and they know it. I have a problem with the fact that the list was obviously provided detailing all the medications and that produced no outcry. The cocktail they were giving to their horses is ridiculous. Any normal person can look at that list and be appalled like we all are.
    The rider casts his heart over the fence,
    the horse jumps in pursuit of it.

    –Hans-Heinrich Isenbart



  14. #14
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    Default

    Perhaps all shots given at a show should have to be administed by an appointed show veterinarian like someone suggested in the HJ forum.
    The rider casts his heart over the fence,
    the horse jumps in pursuit of it.

    –Hans-Heinrich Isenbart


    1 members found this post helpful.

  15. #15
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    Sep. 14, 2000
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    Goochland, VA
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    Default

    A Code of Conduct is not enforceable. It is a recommendation, nothing more. The problem is that the USEF has no legal authority to make Mandarino turn over the necropsy results. None. And she makes a LOT of noise about lawsuits, to a LOT of people. Including this magazine/forum. So, with the law on her side, USEF's hands are tied. Not e causing them as I am sure there ARE things that can be done.

    It will cost a great deal of money to have enough vets on site to be able to serve a show the size of WEF. And then what about the off site barns? You can't mandate what happens on private property. Is everyone ready for their show fees to increase dramatically to cover this?

    I am afraid the only path is zero tolerance as the FEI enforces it.
    Laurie
    Finding, preparing, showing and training young hunters, in hand and performance.
    www.juniorjohnsontrainingandsales.com



  16. #16
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    Nov. 30, 2005
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    Northfield MN
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by europa View Post
    Pinning has nothing to do with it really. A well trained hunter will go around just like that. That is what let's you win and they know it. I have a problem with the fact that the list was obviously provided detailing all the medications and that produced no outcry. The cocktail they were giving to their horses is ridiculous. Any normal person can look at that list and be appalled like we all are.
    Yes, but nothing on that list is currently against the rules, although I believe you now have to file a report for Dex.

    I've watched hundreds of well trained hunters put in beautiful rounds. Even to my non-professional eye, it is pretty easy to tell that some have been given more than an NSAID. I think quiet and mannerly should be rewarded, but dull and vacant eyed, not so much.



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug. 4, 2011
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    1,668

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RyTimMick View Post
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/28/us...anted=all&_r=0

    I know this isn't really a breeding subject, but it affects us anyways. I think G. Morris correctly stated that it is stunting our young riders. J. Winkel stated right saying we should train our horses better.

    THIS IS ABSOLUTELY APPAULING. I am not naieve in that I didn't know that Hunters were doing this, but I am shocked at how tollerant everyone is to the blatant abuse of these poor horses. Treating them like pin cushins because we don't want to take the time to train our horses and riders. We should be ashamed.

    If I ever catch wind of one of my horses being treated this way, I will bring all powers to bare to publically embarrass, and legally prosecute the abuses. Why isn't anyone else?

    What does it say about our trainers if they have to drug the horses so they can allow their untrained students to ride them? What does it say about the rider that knowingly allows the horse to be drugged because they aren't a good enough rider. You either aren't a good trainer of horses, students or both. OR maybe, just maybe you have to BUY good horses, train them up properply, before selling them for an arm and a leg. Every discipline has its demons, but the hunter world has blindly gone on, way too long with out addressing this one. The sport rewards bad behavoir, so it has begotten bad behavoir.

    What a shame.

    Tim
    It is a HUGE shame. Hunter trainers SUCK! They suck at riding and they suck at training!!!!!!! The only way most can win is to drug with magnesium.

    But its really tough to get any sanctions with teeth against these guys. The USEF looks the other way. Hunter divisions need something like the tough FEI regulations that are enforced for this bull sh!$ to stop.

    Just take a peek at the nefarious actions of "hunter breeder" Jill Burnell .


    Its about the $$$$$$.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan. 17, 2010
    Posts
    233

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lauriep View Post
    A Code of Conduct is not enforceable. It is a recommendation, nothing more.
    This is the one I was referring to, which is agreed to by the signer, and can be enforced by the organization. While this came from the USDF, there is an equivalent one for jumpers (as my d had to sign for NAJYRC). Making it part and parcel of signing an entry form as "trainer" is straightforward enough, I would think. Can anyone explain why it would not be possible?

    http://www.usdf.org/docs/ShowFlash/w...eofConduct.pdf

    If you want to participate in USEF-sanctioned events then there should be rules to which you agree, and among them should be a requirement to provide the information. Anyone who wants to assert their 5th Amendment rights is certainly entitled, but why should USEF be forced to allow them to compete?


    2 members found this post helpful.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 2012
    Location
    Fredericksburg, va
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    678

    Default

    This surfaced earlier in the year, but I am extremely glad that it is making the big news and being noticed. I have first Hand witnessed this type of thing and its horrifying. In one of the news videos a trainer says "these horses do this because we want them to, not necessarily because they want to" no couldn't agree more, some truly have the love for it but without us asking them to do it they wouldn't have to. If the horse cannot make it in the hunter ring, try jumpers, don't just keep piling on harsher bits and lunging to death and medicating. If they can't be a jumper, let them find a new career.. This is just horrifying.
    First and foremost about the horse.
    Rose Bud Ranch Sporthorses
    Like Us On Facebook!


    3 members found this post helpful.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Aug. 4, 2011
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    1,668

    Default

    Well, quite frankly the only way this problem is ever going to be resolved is to severly punish offending trainers in their pocket books. Its not the judges problem, its not the clients problem, its not the parents problem, its not the show managers responsibility, its not the anyones problem except the trainers that drug.

    The trainers that drug need to be punished in a way that if they get caught once it can be career limiting/ending. That is the ONLY WAY.

    This problem has gone on for many many many years, and will continue to do so until the trainers that drug get punished in a meaningful way.


    4 members found this post helpful.

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