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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Countries that lack a strong middle class lack stability. Unions fueled the rise of the middle class in the US. You can trace the correlation between the death of the unions with the shrinking of the middle class.
    This. I've heard much about the new hourglass economy and know many who have gotten squeezed out. The ironic thing is, at some point you have to wonder who will buy all the crap from overseas if no one is making enough money to do more than basically feed themselves.


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  2. #22
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    My opinion is that unions that force workers to belong to them are overstepping what a union should be and falling into socialism, dictatorshop of the proletariat.

    People should have the right to work where they want to without being mandated to pay into anyone's coffers for the privilege of working.

    Not right to be not hired because of race, sexual identity, religious belief or not want to belong to a union.

    In a free country, we should be able to be free and that means free from pressures to belong to anything, be it a church, a professional group or union.
    That in places union membership to work there is mandatory is offensive to me.

    That was 40 years ago, but in NYS, the steel workers union kept having strikes and hired mafia hit men.
    Those were the same that went from bars to grocery stores and other business every week to demand protection money.
    They were to enforce keeping "scabs" away, by beating them and beating their cars in, so they could not go work against the strikes.
    Some union member went along for the fun.

    I have seen the underbelly of unions there and in friends that work as teachers.
    What they say they have to agree to and not complain when their union mandates something I would never would have put up with.
    I just don't think so much that unions do is right, for the little they yell from the roof tops they do, that is what any one good manager of any business would do anyway, to keep workers happy and staying there.

    Animal rights groups ride the coattails of societies that were already demanding better care and humane use of animals.
    Unions rode the coattails of societies that were already demanding working people should be treated decently.
    They both, animal rights groups and unions live off the backs of the rest of us, that are already treating anyone, our animals or employees well.

    Are they really needed to make those that don't do so?
    Sure, but that is not all they do.
    Once the power to make demands is there, why not use it and for more and more outrageous demands?

    As everyone's standard of living was improving, societies were able and demanding we do right for those under our care.
    That came first, that gelled into groups that then took on doing just that as their agenda, which was fine.

    The trouble, once those groups found out the power they were acquiring by that, well, like every other groups out there with powers, they used it, with expected results.

    Such groups are part of how societies work.
    They of course do some good, but some not so good.
    I know enough of the not so good of how some unions function to not like to ever be part of them.
    I would feel like I was living back in a dictatorship if made to belong to them by force, to have and keep my job.

    I think unions are great, for those that want to belong to them.
    I think they are terrible when they become the only way to get and keep jobs.
    Last edited by Bluey; Dec. 29, 2012 at 08:12 AM.


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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    My opinion is that unions that force workers to belong to them are overstepping what a union should be and falling into socialism, dictatorshop of the proletariat.

    People should have the right to work where they want to without being mandated to pay into anyone's coffers for the privilege of working.

    Not right to be not hired because of race, sexual identity, religious belief or not want to belong to a union.

    In a free country, we should be able to be free and that means free from pressures to belong to anything, be it a church, a professional group or union.
    That in places union membership to work there is mandatory is offensive to me.

    That was 40 years ago, but in NYS, the steel workers union kept having strikes and hired mafia hit men.
    Those were the same that went from bars to grocery stores and other business every week to demand protection money.
    They were to enforce keeping "scabs" away, by beating them and beating their cars in, so they could not go work against the strikes.
    Some union member went along for the fun.

    I have seen the underbelly of unions there and in friends that work as teachers.
    What they say they have to agree to and not complain when their union mandates something I would never would have put up with.
    I just don't think so much that unions do is right, for the little they yell from the roof tops they do, that is what any one good manager of any business would do anyway, to keep workers happy and staying there.

    Animal rights groups ride the coattails of societies that were already demanding better care and humane use of animals.
    Unions rode the coattails of societies that were already demanding working people should be treated decently.
    They both, animal rights groups and unions live off the backs of the rest of us, that are already treating anyone, our animals or employees well.

    Are they really needed to make those that don't do so?
    Sure, but that is not all they do.
    Once the power to make demands is there, why not use it and for more and more outrageous demands?

    As everyone's standard of living was improving, societies were able and demanding we do right for those under our care.
    That came first, that gelled into groups that then took on doing just that as their agenda, which was fine.

    The trouble, once those groups found out the power they were acquiring by that, well, like every other groups out there with powers, they used it, with expected results.

    Such groups are part of how societies work.
    They of course do some good, but some not so good.
    I know enough of the not so good of how some unions function to not like to ever be part of them.
    I would feel like I was living back in a dictatorship if made to belong to them by force, to have and keep my job.

    I think unions are great, for those that want to belong to them.
    I think they are terrible when they become the only way to get and keep jobs.
    Points well taken. Unions certainly have had a checkered past, but like others have said, I think the days of some of those excesses may be over, at least until and unless our economy changes fundamentally.

    What I think is interesting is the rising demand for organized labor in places like China where folks have gotten a taste of the middle-class lifestyle and want to protect it. Of course, jobs have moved out of China and on to the next cheapest place. Taken to its logical extreme, this makes me wonder if labor will just continue to move and colonize the next place, perhaps until living standards have improved worldwide. But I guess there will always be the next cheapest place.



  4. #24
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    It is a great myth that union workers make more than non-union workers in the same job. When adjusted for cost of living the non-union worker actually makes more in those god awful right to work states.

    The people that argue that union workers make more never use the COLA adjusted numbers. So you get comparisons of a worker in NYC with a worker in poducnk, Alabama.
    "I couldn't find my keys, so I put her in the trunk"



  5. #25
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    There was a story on PBS yesterday about a different type of school and how well it was working for the communities that had them.

    One of the interesting parts were interviews with teachers, that definitely were not union OR wanted to be and they explained why and the advantages of doing their own contracts with the school administration.
    When asked if they were not afraid they may be fired any time without the standard union contract, you could see they had a hard time keeping their peace and have their say without showing how little they thought of teacher's unions.

    You should never burn bridges, I was thinking, because some time, they too may need to work where the only place is unionized, even in this free country.

    Their responses were a lame no, we do a great job and they can fire us if they want, but why would you want to fire those that do a great job for you?
    Naive, yes, but that is the truth, good workers that fit well in their position, in any successful business, are assets and treated as such, or they move on.

    Where unions are strong is where they are a tradition in the work force, or where you can make do with the less good workers, that unions protect.

    Unions have their place, unions should not feel persecuted, it is their right to have unions, but the rest of the work force and society should not be mandated to be unionized.
    Right to work without paying into unions is also a real right, just as it is to live in any town without paying dues to the local church for the right to live there.


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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    that is the truth, good workers that fit well in their position, in any successful business, are assets and treated as such, or they move on.
    That is completely, utterly untrue. Have you ever heard of 'outsourcing'? Do you think that the US lost manufacturing jobs because American workers weren't 'good workers that fit well in their position'?

    Do you think child sweatshop laborers in Bangladesh are 'assets and are treated as such'?

    Is it possible for you to consider issues with the goal of understanding them rather than to constantly frame everything to fit your brand of American ignorance that masquerades as 'conservatism'?


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  7. #27
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    Bluey, you need to stop saying things you heard from people or read. This is ridiculous. No one is forced to join a union. They do enjoy the benefits of what the union negotiated, and for the most part, from what I understand, need to pay their fair share in those negotiations.

    You are SO clueless on teachers unions, but you saw the happy teachers saying it was so great not to have one? Pshaw. You know what teachers do a great job? The ones that have high standards and ask a lot of their students. Guess what ratings they get from students and parents? Constant complaints that the teacher is bad and they want better grades. My SO is back in college, and no on enrolls in the teacher's classes who actually teach. They enroll in the easy classes where they can cheat and get good grades. Without unions, every teacher who gives accurate, fair grades would be harassed into grade inflation or fired for complaints, and every student would have A's!


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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beentheredonethat View Post
    Bluey, you need to stop saying things you heard from people or read. This is ridiculous. No one is forced to join a union. They do enjoy the benefits of what the union negotiated, and for the most part, from what I understand, need to pay their fair share in those negotiations.

    You are SO clueless on teachers unions, but you saw the happy teachers saying it was so great not to have one? Pshaw. You know what teachers do a great job? The ones that have high standards and ask a lot of their students. Guess what ratings they get from students and parents? Constant complaints that the teacher is bad and they want better grades. My SO is back in college, and no on enrolls in the teacher's classes who actually teach. They enroll in the easy classes where they can cheat and get good grades. Without unions, every teacher who gives accurate, fair grades would be harassed into grade inflation or fired for complaints, and every student would have A's!
    Really?

    That didn't sound like a problem those non union schools had.

    Maybe it is others, not I, that should look beyond what unions they know/belong to tell them?

    As for outsourcing, yes, there are several reasons for that, taxes and regulations increased dramatically on industries decades ago, add to that some of those had very strong unions that were practically trying to run the business end of the places of work ...

    No one was without blame there, including some heavy handed, power hungry unions.

    Remember when you think about unions that there is an important and well cultivated component to being part of any group, unions also, belonging, carrying an emotional component.

    Some people are loyal to their companies, some to their unions, some understand that business as an employee or employer is a business transaction first, any other is perks.

    Life is not as simple as saying unions will fix everything, or unions are evil and destroy business and even industries, as some claim, on both sides.



  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Maybe it is others, not I, that should look beyond what unions they know/belong to tell them?
    No, Bluey, it's you.

    I do admire your passion for political discussion but you would benefit so much from channeling some of that passion away from partisanship and into gaining a basic understanding of the issues.


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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Really?

    That didn't sound like a problem those non union schools had.

    Maybe it is others, not I, that should look beyond what unions they know/belong to tell them?

    As for outsourcing, yes, there are several reasons for that, taxes and regulations increased dramatically on industries decades ago, add to that some of those had very strong unions that were practically trying to run the business end of the places of work ...

    No one was without blame there, including some heavy handed, power hungry unions.

    Remember when you think about unions that there is an important and well cultivated component to being part of any group, unions also, belonging, carrying an emotional component.

    Some people are loyal to their companies, some to their unions, some understand that business as an employee or employer is a business transaction first, any other is perks.

    Life is not as simple as saying unions will fix everything, or unions are evil and destroy business and even industries, as some claim, on both sides.
    Bluey, they're outsourcing because they can hire workers for pennies a day and can destroy the environment in whatever the country they've moved to.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    No, Bluey, it's you.

    I do admire your passion for political discussion but you would benefit so much from channeling some of that passion away from partisanship and into gaining a basic understanding of the issues.
    "Partisanship" to what?

    You would benefit from understanding that not everyone is "partisan" to whatever you don't agree with, just because they don't agree with you.

    I have a fine understanding of some issues, have lived thru them, the best way to know.
    You have not seen the thugs beat on someone and their car in the Albany, NY streets, because they were thought to want to cross picket lines, the police getting there and sending everyone home.

    I have heard for 40 years now teachers talk about their unions, have questioned them why they put up with that, got their answers.

    Now, maybe your experiences could be different, but at your own peril you discount so easily those of others.



  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Really?

    That didn't sound like a problem those non union schools had.

    Maybe it is others, not I, that should look beyond what unions they know/belong to tell them?

    As for outsourcing, yes, there are several reasons for that, taxes and regulations increased dramatically on industries decades ago, add to that some of those had very strong unions that were practically trying to run the business end of the places of work ...

    No one was without blame there, including some heavy handed, power hungry unions.

    Remember when you think about unions that there is an important and well cultivated component to being part of any group, unions also, belonging, carrying an emotional component.

    Some people are loyal to their companies, some to their unions, some understand that business as an employee or employer is a business transaction first, any other is perks.

    Life is not as simple as saying unions will fix everything, or unions are evil and destroy business and even industries, as some claim, on both sides.
    Bluey, the main reasons for outsourcing were two: the free trade gospel that was mostly hawked by big business, which mean tariffs to equalize the cost of offshore and onshore production were dropped; and the fact that a worker in Honduras and poverty stricken countries will work for 8 dollars a day and not $8 an hour. The result has been massive movement of manufacturing to places with the cheapest labor, downward pressure on US wages, and massive unemployment for people who once had good jobs without higher education.

    Unions had little or nothing to do with this shift, except that big business blames them for US high worker costs. Of course if you think that working for $8 a day is adequate, then you will swallow the tripe that you seem to have swallowed.

    Remember that worker costs are the only major element of any business that can be quickly modified. And without substantial additional investment capital. There is no control over most other costs at all. Unions and their contracts protect against employers using reductions in the cost of workers to boost profits.
    Last edited by vineyridge; Dec. 29, 2012 at 03:31 PM.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    Bluey, the main reasons for outsourcing were two: the free trade gospel that was mostly hawked by big business, which mean tariffs to equalize the cost of offshore and onshore production were dropped; and the fact that a worker in Honduras and poverty stricken countries will work for 8 dollars a day and not $8 an hour. The result has been massive movement of manufacturing to places with the cheapest labor, downward pressure on US wages, and massive unemployment for people who once had good jobs without higher education.

    Unions had little or nothing to do with this shift, except that big business blames them for US high worker costs. Of course if you think that working for $8 a day is adequate, then you will swallow the tripe that you seem to have swallowed.

    Remember that worker costs are the only major element of any business that can be quickly modified. There is no control over most other costs at all. Unions and their contracts protect against employers using reductions in the cost of workers to boost profits.
    Doesn't do much good to have such good union contracts when the jobs are lost because of those.
    Don't tell me that doesn't happen, has always been part of the union strife.

    Don't let union talk tell you different.
    See, it works both ways.
    Both sides are good on talk, both really should carry blame when things don't work out.



  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Now, maybe your experiences could be different, but at your own peril you discount so easily those of others.
    'At your own peril'?

    Are you threatening me, Bluey?


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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    'At your own peril'?

    Are you threatening me, Bluey?
    Don't be silly now, that is an expression that means, well, do I need to explain English to native English speakers?

    Maybe you don't know that expression after all, so here it goes:

    "At your own peril" is a figure of speech, meaning in this context that you may be dismissing important knowledge being presented and that may make your arguments ineffective.


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  16. #36
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    Bluey, you have never belonged to a union. You speak of second hand information and you place blame in the most inappropriate places. Outsourcing is not because of unions it is because of cheap labor and no environmental rules in other countries AND the demand for everything to be cheap by consumers.

    Some of us have direct experience with unions not second, third hand conversations and right wing "articles". I will stand by own experiences with unions and not what people with vested interests tell me about unions-and no I don't think you have any vested interest. Mr stolen is union and those contracts are negotiated every 2-3 years and for the last 5 years he and everyone else has taken paycuts. This idea that union contracts are always inflated is fantasy, it is a negotiation based on current conditions.

    I don't work for a union and people come and go quickly. And some of the less bright are promoted where the more capable are let go because I work for a corporation where staff are treated horribly and management focuses on the bottomline to an extreme. I understand the differences but unions are much more protective of their employees and they pay for that protection. If you don't want it work elsewhere.

    This is a time when the corporate cultural has made considerable inroads at the expense of the employees. The balance is gone, people are trying to pay bills at my office and only work sporadically. Many company benefits are being cut back, profits are up so where is the justification ? That is the corporate trend, corporations given the rights of individuals created a huge power shift in corporate operations.

    Anyway, this BB is great to understand what first hand experiences are with issues.


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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    Bluey, you have never belonged to a union. You speak of second hand information and you place blame in the most inappropriate places. Outsourcing is not because of unions it is because of cheap labor and no environmental rules in other countries AND the demand for everything to be cheap by consumers.

    Some of us have direct experience with unions not second, third hand conversations and right wing "articles". I will stand by own experiences with unions and not what people with vested interests tell me about unions-and no I don't think you have any vested interest. Mr stolen is union and those contracts are negotiated every 2-3 years and for the last 5 years he and everyone else has taken paycuts. This idea that union contracts are always inflated is fantasy, it is a negotiation based on current conditions.

    I don't work for a union and people come and go quickly. And some of the less bright are promoted where the more capable are let go because I work for a corporation where staff are treated horribly and management focuses on the bottomline to an extreme. I understand the differences but unions are much more protective of their employees and they pay for that protection. If you don't want it work elsewhere.

    This is a time when the corporate cultural has made considerable inroads at the expense of the employees. The balance is gone, people are trying to pay bills at my office and only work sporadically. Many company benefits are being cut back, profits are up so where is the justification ? That is the corporate trend, corporations given the rights of individuals created a huge power shift in corporate operations.

    Anyway, this BB is great to understand what first hand experiences are with issues.
    "Right wing articles"?
    What is that supposed to mean?

    Do you really think that anyone that question unions has to be a brain washed person that reads "right wing articles", wherever those may be found?

    I have worked with union members and former union members, although I didn't belong to one, that is right.
    I have seen their struggles with their unions, that of course don't show so plain when they are having to put on their happy face, their own words, not to get in trouble with their unions.

    All I am saying is that unions are not ONLY the good feeling, nice organizations you seem to defend there.
    Then, since you defend them, guess that they fit who you are and what you want to do and that is fine also.

    I really wonder about those that can, with a straight face, say unions are such good, beyond reproach organizations, don't say anything but flattering about them.

    I sure don't see anyone on the other side insisting management is pure and all nice boys trying to keep everyone happy.

    You know why all that that is not credible?
    Because those are not even important for what workers or management need to get business and industries running well.

    You don't see much talk of unions in well run business, they are not needed.
    Unions thrive when there is confrontation and they put on a show about it and, well, is all that really needed and if so, where and why and how many of them?



  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    "Right wing articles"?
    What is that supposed to mean?

    Do you really think that anyone that question unions has to be a brain washed person that reads "right wing articles", wherever those may be found?

    I have worked with union members and former union members, although I didn't belong to one, that is right.
    I have seen their struggles with their unions, that of course don't show so plain when they are having to put on their happy face, their own words, not to get in trouble with their unions.

    All I am saying is that unions are not ONLY the good feeling, nice organizations you seem to defend there.
    Then, since you defend them, guess that they fit who you are and what you want to do and that is fine also.

    I really wonder about those that can, with a straight face, say unions are such good, beyond reproach organizations, don't say anything but flattering about them.

    I sure don't see anyone on the other side insisting management is pure and all nice boys trying to keep everyone happy.

    You know why all that that is not credible?
    Because those are not even important for what workers or management need to get business and industries running well.

    You don't see much talk of unions in well run business, they are not needed.
    Unions thrive when there is confrontation and they put on a show about it and, well, is all that really needed and if so, where and why and how many of them?
    You have never been a member of a union and you keep parrotting comments such as"unions thrive when there is confrontation and they put on a show"which shows people how little you know about unions. Really, the posts bashing unions that you post have no fact no experience just silly second third party random thoughts that support your bashing unions.

    Every OTD we hear the same from you. Nothing factual or even pertaining to your own union experience.


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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    You have never been a member of a union and you keep parrotting comments such as"unions thrive when there is confrontation and they put on a show"which shows people how little you know about unions. Really, the posts bashing unions that you post have no fact no experience just silly second third party random thoughts that support your bashing unions.

    Every OTD we hear the same from you. Nothing factual or even pertaining to your own union experience.
    Ok, fair, I don't belong to a union, so I don't know what belonging to a union is.

    Now, on the last, I think you are exaggerating a little there.
    I don't generally speak about unions, there is not that much talk about them anyway, other than the odd comment or rarely some longer discussion like here.
    So, as much as we touch on here on OT days, I think you are not right with that accusation there.



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    Bluey, this is a thread whose title is 'ALEC'.

    While you have posted numerous times on this thread, you have yet to weigh in with any thoughts, opinions or comments on ALEC.

    Well? Can you share with us?

    If you're not familiar with the American Legislative Exchange Council, I'll link you to a link-filled post about ALEC by a very good, independent, investigative journalist.

    Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.



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