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  1. #801
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    Quote Originally Posted by leyla25 View Post
    Keep children away from Hunters and Equitation. A big waste of money, and lots of frustration as it is mostly based on how much money you spend on horse, medications, vets and more important politics.
    And sadly, these used to be the disciplines you wanted to start kids in. It taught them tact and accuracy before adding speed and even more accuracy (plus tact, ideally).

    I grew up with some people who didn't know what they were doing with their horses and therefore wanted to put me into the jumper ring where kicking and pulling was ok, so long as it got the job done.

    I have done many discipline since, even the jumpers a little bit. But the experience soured me on the division. No desire to be again in that "you gotta go for broke" position.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  2. #802
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    Pine Tree Farm, you're being knee jerk negative. The rest of the world uses passports that have to go with the animal. The rest of the world (EU anyway) has moved to chips, as has most of racing worldwide. The FEI now requires all new FEI registrants to be chipped.

    When you go to any horse competition, you have to show a current Coggins. They are SUPPOSED to ID the horse, but as we all know the descriptions are very generic. If you can provide a Coggins to show management, you can certainly provide a passport. Same thing, just different paper.

    Require passports to reflect medications; send a fax or copy of the passport with your registration at the show or turn in copies at the show office. Then have someone at the in-gate with a chip reader and a laptop to note the results. Go back to the secretary's office and match the chip with the passport-- or even just send the numbers to a USEF database that will do the matching. Sure, it's after the fact; but discrepancies would/SHOULD result in discipline from USEF. And if testing shows medications that are not listed in the passport, that would be grounds for discipline as well.

    After a couple of years, everyone would be just as used to this as they are to the Coggins requirement.

    I honestly fail to see how you can prove horse age in age related competition if you don't have papers or a passport and proof that the horse is the one in the documentation.

    I'm sure that show managements and the USEF would find it very easy to learn how the Europeans and FEI use passports without bringing their horse shows to grinding halts. I might also add that European competitions are already much, much cheaper than American ones.

    Edited to add on the misrepresentation business--my time sense is seriously warped. I just remember after one or another big mistake , the USEF put out a press release/public notice that they were going to slap hands on this. I honestly thought there was a rule change involved.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire


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  3. #803
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    Last summer I was surprised in reading the COTH preview article on the Hunter Derby Finals, how many horses were listed as having unknown pedigree. Coming from the TB world, I find it hard to believe how many folks will say "He's branded Oldenburg, but we have no idea his breeding" even when speaking of one of the elite cometitors in our sport. I am left guessing that at some point many of these horses were misrepresented at some point, often in a transaction that cost the buyer far more than it should. Permaent ID (like chip) will help. Even if every horse isn't scanned, knowing that (say) half the horses at a given show could be checked might make folks think twice. Possibly the rule might suggest that every USEF registered horse be scanned at least once annually at a sanctioned show.
    F O.B
    Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
    Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique


    4 members found this post helpful.

  4. #804
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molly99 View Post
    It would at the very least add five dedicated people to that job, including a vet. One day shows would never be able to handle it.
    It would depend on what the criteria were: passport, microchip or simply a copy of the registration/recordation certificate w/ photograph. Quite honestly, the breed shows I attend require e-Coggins (with photograph) AND a Statement of Registration/Recorded Ownership (available from the breed registry, downloadable in PDF format) of the horse's papers. The names and numbers need to match or YOU DON'T SHOW. And I processed an entire morning's worth of entries all by my little lonesome the last time I volunteered.

    So once again, it CAN be done; it's that USEF just doesn't seem to want to.

    ETA, to Linny: Yeah, amazing isn't it... Of course it all starts b/c the trainer doesn't want the owner to know how much s/he really paid for it... And also b/c some of the very starriest of rock star horses in the hunters over here are culls from European breeders, b/c by European standards they're so embarrassingly sh*t that the breeding program doesn't want anything to do with them, and in fact probably paid the importing trainer a good bit to make sure horsie's papers went "poof"! Now, you and I and a few other people know this ain't NO way to build a breed - which is why I don't play on the dumbblood playground - but we also all know all the trainer has to do is say disparagingly "You can't put a saddle on a pedigree" and all the clueless sheeple will fall in line and fork out six figures...
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief


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  5. #805
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    Dec. 22, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    The FEI now requires all new FEI registrants to be chipped.... Then have someone at the in-gate with a chip reader and a laptop to note the results. Go back to the secretary's office and match the chip with the passport-- or even just send the numbers to a USEF database that will do the matching.
    Quote Originally Posted by Linny View Post
    Possibly the rule might suggest that every USEF registered horse be scanned at least once annually at a sanctioned show.
    Required chips and required scanning will result in more fees and higher costs for all exhibitors, when many people are already getting priced out of recognized shows.

    There is no way to compare FEI procedures, which apply to a relatively small number of horses competing at the highest levels, to practical use for every animal at the USEF shows, from the short stirrup ponies to the 2'6" hunters to all the children's/adult jumpers, etc.

    And who would track down all the horses in November that haven't been scanned yet for the year? What if they're not going to another show until the spring?



  6. #806
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    I got my dog microchipped for $30, and it is recorded and on record.

    What's the terrible expense for tracking a dog?



  7. #807
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    I may be wrong, but it's my understanding that FEI procedures or something very close apply to every horse competition in Europe. Over there, people care about the breeding of competition horses, so ID is an important part of the whole sport.

    European shows are MUCH cheaper than anything we have over here. If the Id procedure were so burdensome and expensive, it would be reflected in the cost of showing.

    BTW, microchip scanners that can read 15 digit chips that are FEI compliant cost less than $350 and can be rented. They are even cheaper if you buy them in Ireland.

    Quote Originally Posted by MHM View Post
    Required chips and required scanning will result in more fees and higher costs for all exhibitors, when many people are already getting priced out of recognized shows.

    There is no way to compare FEI procedures, which apply to a relatively small number of horses competing at the highest levels, to practical use for every animal at the USEF shows, from the short stirrup ponies to the 2'6" hunters to all the children's/adult jumpers, etc.

    And who would track down all the horses in November that haven't been scanned yet for the year? What if they're not going to another show until the spring?
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire


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  8. #808
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    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief



  9. #809
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaroquePony View Post
    I got my dog microchipped for $30, and it is recorded and on record.

    What's the terrible expense for tracking a dog?
    My dog also has a microchip, but I don't have to get it scanned every time I take him to the dog park. If I did, I would expect the dog park use to cost much more, since there would need to be employees paid to scan every dog at the gate, then compare the chip to the records on file.

    I can see the value of having a microchip to verify the identity of a horse when it gets sold, but that's not the same as having the scan done ten or twenty or thirty times a year at every show.



  10. #810
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    I may be wrong, but it's my understanding that FEI procedures or something very close apply to every horse competition in Europe. Over there, people care about the breeding of competition horses, so ID is an important part of the whole sport.

    European shows are MUCH cheaper than anything we have over here. If the Id procedure were so burdensome and expensive, it would be reflected in the cost of showing.
    When I was in Europe, the national (that is, non-FEI) shows seemed to be pretty relaxed. They did not seem to be too wrapped up in procedures, but that was a while ago, so maybe things have changed since then.

    There was certainly a huge difference in paperwork and security between the FEI shows and the local competitions where everybody took all their young horses for mileage.



  11. #811
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    War Admiral, at that time passports were very new in the UK. You notice that the "offender" said that she usually bought horses from Ireland where they were all microchipped and she just paid the Irish Horse Board to change the name that went with the chip.

    The chip scanning would be a deterrent, much as drug testing is INTENDED to be. If people knew that there was a reasonable chance that their horse would be scanned at shows, maybe they wouldn't play fast and loose with identity.

    Have a passport with photo or markings and a chip number. Send a copy of the passport to the show when you register. Have horses (some or all) scanned when they went in the ingate--maybe you could do more than just the current one while the classes wait for trainers to appear.


    Then send the data to the USEF for a decent database to do the matches. The show would send a list of entrants and their passport numbers and a list of the numbers that came out of the scanner. Connect the scanner to a laptop to generate the list.

    The IRS does matching constantly with tax documents from hundreds of millions of people--or is supposed to.

    This really isn't rocket science.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire


    2 members found this post helpful.

  12. #812
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    The US Post Office uses scanners for registered packages. It can't cost that much .



  13. #813
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaroquePony View Post
    The US Post Office uses scanners for registered packages. It can't cost that much .
    You mean the US Post Office that is in the red for billions of dollars?


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  14. #814
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    Well, if you don't like USPS, try Fed Ex and UPS.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  15. #815
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    That is NOT why the USPS is in the Red .


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  16. #816
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    Uh, under the new FEI rules ALL horses that compete at the FEI levels MUST be microchipped, EVEN IN THE US. 2013 is a transition year. We have been discussing this over in eventing and the recent USEA meeting there were discussions, given that this affect NAYRC and many riders who will never make a team or even go above a 1*.



  17. #817
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAyers View Post
    Uh, under the new FEI rules ALL horses that compete at the FEI levels MUST be microchipped, EVEN IN THE US. 2013 is a transition year.
    That has no bearing on any hunter or equitation horse or the vast majority of jumpers at USEF shows. In other words, probably at least 90-95% of the entries.



  18. #818
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    Posted by MHM:

    That has no bearing on any hunter or equitation horse or the vast majority of jumpers at USEF shows. In other words, probably at least 90-95% of the entries.
    It has a bearing on the entire horse industry.



  19. #819
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    AIKEN SC
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    Pine Tree Farm, you're being knee jerk negative. The rest of the world uses passports that have to go with the animal. The rest of the world (EU anyway) has moved to chips, as has most of racing worldwide. The FEI now requires all new FEI registrants to be chipped.

    When you go to any horse competition, you have to show a current Coggins. They are SUPPOSED to ID the horse, but as we all know the descriptions are very generic. If you can provide a Coggins to show management, you can certainly provide a passport. Same thing, just different paper.

    Require passports to reflect medications; send a fax or copy of the passport with your registration at the show or turn in copies at the show office. Then have someone at the in-gate with a chip reader and a laptop to note the results. Go back to the secretary's office and match the chip with the passport-- or even just send the numbers to a USEF database that will do the matching. Sure, it's after the fact; but discrepancies would/SHOULD result in discipline from USEF. And if testing shows medications that are not listed in the passport, that would be grounds for discipline as well.

    After a couple of years, everyone would be just as used to this as they are to the Coggins requirement.

    I honestly fail to see how you can prove horse age in age related competition if you don't have papers or a passport and proof that the horse is the one in the documentation.

    I'm sure that show managements and the USEF would find it very easy to learn how the Europeans and FEI use passports without bringing their horse shows to grinding halts. I might also add that European competitions are already much, much cheaper than American ones.

    Edited to add on the misrepresentation business--my time sense is seriously warped. I just remember after one or another big mistake , the USEF put out a press release/public notice that they were going to slap hands on this. I honestly thought there was a rule change involved.
    As an active exhibitor and show official I understand how much expense and time you will be adding to show expenses for the exhibitor and for the show.

    USEF does issue passports but they are quite expensive. If you really mean registry papers they are not required to compete in H/J, Dressage, Eventing etc.
    Not every horse has papers. A coggins test can not be compared to a passport and the requirement for one is a show requirement not USEF.
    Breed restricted divisions such as ASB are not what is being discussed.

    There are very few divisions that require proof of age and IHF and IJF are run outside of USEF rules. Those programs DO require proof and you need to record the horse with THEM, not USEF.
    USEF age restricted jumper divisions do require 'papers' for proof of age but papers is not defined. PHR (usef ) papers are accepted.

    Hunters are not an FEI recognized discipline and we are not in the EU.
    The percent of FEI competing horses is very low, maybe less than 1% of all USEF recordings.

    Entries at shows in many areas of the US are down. Adding more expense to already pressed exhibitors makes no sense.
    Fan of Sea Accounts


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  20. #820
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    The microchip discussion is getting a little off topic, but I disagree that the expense would be too high. If I'm not mistaken, the scanners cost a couple of hundred dollars and obviously are reusable. I am sure that there is a cost-effective way to implement microchip scanning as part of ensuring proof of identity for show horses, whether it is spot checking random horses or random classes or even just threatening to. Placing a microchip is a quick, one time procedure and provides lifetime proof of identity for that animal.

    You are right that there are very few divisions that require proof of age, but what about divisions that have eligibility requirements? Right now it is just too easy to reregister an experienced horse and start their show career over.

    If the USEF supported microchipping this would be a great step towards making our sport more transparent. It would be a very "pro-owner" move though, and perhaps the USEF is more interested in protecting trainers and show managers, not the owners who are funding the sport.

    Microchips also protect horses. They would help identify stolen animals and potentially help older or down and out animals to be reunited with previous owners.


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