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  1. #301
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    sorry, double post
    www.englishivyfarms.com
    Hunters, Jumpers, & Welsh Ponies
    All I pay my psychiatrist is the cost of feed and hay, and he'll listen to me any day. ~Author Unknown



  2. #302
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    Jan. 19, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by fair judy View Post
    ..... and here you have it folks. if you even POST to Amber Hill's wall you get the attention of tammy tucker, attorney to the lunatic. what a piece of work she must be....... " "
    It always amazes me when they turn it around and make it sound like you are the problem. I didn't see Sarah Hochschwender's name in The NYT!

    Sorry that this is happening to you - please keep us posted. I will donate to your defense fund!!!


    2 members found this post helpful.

  3. #303
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    Sep. 8, 2005
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    Georgia
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHM View Post
    Meh.

    There are many, many people who will never be in a situation that involves FEI rules. The vast majority, in fact. Some of those people medicate their horses in a reasonable, therapeutic way, and some go crazy with the home chemistry experiments.

    There are good horsemen and bad horsemen in every discipline, at every level.
    I'm not disagreeing. I just thought it was an interesting point that trainers whose horses must follow FEI rules at competitions have to develop a program without drugss (or cheat and risk getting caught, but that is not the point here).

    If you only compete at USEF sanctioned shows, you can create a progarm that becomes dependant on legal drugs because.....why not?

    For what it is worth, I am not for zero tolerance nor am I for anything goes. I feel that if we altered how we judged hunters and looked at a better format for points (so we quit rewarding quantity over quality), the horses wouldn't stay on the road for weeks at a time and therefore not require so much chemistry to keep them going.
    www.englishivyfarms.com
    Hunters, Jumpers, & Welsh Ponies
    All I pay my psychiatrist is the cost of feed and hay, and he'll listen to me any day. ~Author Unknown



  4. #304
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    Dec. 22, 2000
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    NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by findeight View Post
    Right now, saying something can be a career ender for a groom or braider, there is nobody to say it to and they don't have 500 even if they are USEF members, and many are not so have no standing to protest.
    One does not need to be a USEF member to file a protest, nor is the fee $500. It's $200 for members and parents of junior members, $300 for non-members. From the current rule book, available for all to see at www.USEF.org :

    Gr603 protests.
    1. Any rider, driver, handler, vaulter, longeur, exhibitor, owner, agent, trainer or the parent of a junior exhibitor, or any Life, Senior, or Junior member present at the competition may file a protest with the Show Committee of a Licensed Competition or The Federation Hearing Committee alleging violation of any Federation rule(s).The protest must contain all information as specified in GR602.1 and must be:
    a. in writing,
    b. signed by the protester,
    c. addressed to the Show Committee of the competition at which the alleged violation occurred, or to the Hearing Committee,
    d. accompanied by a deposit of $200 if made by a Federation member or the parent of a junior exhibitor member or $300 if made by a non-member (if check, payable to the competition or to the Federation); said deposit will be refunded in the event the protest is upheld, and
    e. received by the steward, technical delegate, a member of the Show Committee, the competition manager or the competition secretary within 48 hours of the alleged violation. If made directly to the Hearing Committee, the protest must be received at the Federation office by the tenth business day following the last recognized day of the competition, or by the tenth business day following the date on which the alleged violation occurred if it occurred other than at a Licensed Competition.



  5. #305
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    Oct. 24, 2001
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    Virginia
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    2,374

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    Quote Originally Posted by englishivy View Post
    For what it is worth, I am not for zero tolerance nor am I for anything goes. I feel that if we altered how we judged hunters and looked at a better format for points (so we quit rewarding quantity over quality), the horses wouldn't stay on the road for weeks at a time and therefore not require so much chemistry to keep them going.
    Just brainstorming, but what if we went to more of a Dressage system, where each round got a numeric score--which presumably most do anyway--and used the average for the year. The scores for each round would have to be tracked, but obviously there's a system the Dressage folks use for that which could be modified, and you'd then end up with the horse who performed best, consistently, over the course of the year, regardless of number of shows.



  6. #306
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    Dec. 22, 2000
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    NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by JenEM View Post
    Just brainstorming, but what if we went to more of a Dressage system, where each round got a numeric score--which presumably most do anyway--and used the average for the year. The scores for each round would have to be tracked, but obviously there's a system the Dressage folks use for that which could be modified, and you'd then end up with the horse who performed best, consistently, over the course of the year, regardless of number of shows.
    Most hunter rounds already get a numerical score, but the scores are compared to the other scores in the class, not strictly against a hypothetical idea of perfection. So a winning score of 80 at a small show with three entries in the class would bear no relation to a non-winning score of 80 at a major show with thirty entries in the class.



  7. #307
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    May. 23, 2011
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    Just brainstorming here, but what if you also hit the horse in points for testing positive? Take them out of contention for Indoors and HOTY awards? Test positive, you automatically turn points for that competition year bad and are suspended for the rest of the competition year. Add suspension time for subsequent offences, leading to permanent suspension.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  8. #308
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    Dec. 22, 2000
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    NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennywell Bay View Post
    Every see a cartoon with the little birds flying about going "cukoo cukoo"?
    This thread is an interesting read for those who have not seen it. Note that when it started in June of 2008, less than four years before Humble's death, the OP of the thread described herself as a "pony mom." Not as a trainer at all.
    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...ight=Bedazzled


    6 members found this post helpful.

  9. #309
    Join Date
    Sep. 15, 2006
    Posts
    1,509

    Default Here is what the USEF needs to do...

    They don't need policing or subpoena powers, All they need is one more rule about investigations, members must have complete transparency, and present all paperwork and testimony required or their suspension becomes permanent. Kind of like someone who writes a bad check to a show. Either make good on requirements or be suspended indefinitely.

    They are a private club, and can make the rules as they see them, no judge can say your rules are illegal as long as they don't discriminate. Suspending someone for failure to obey private club rules isn't discrimination..
    " iCOTH " window/bumper stickers.
    http://bluemoongrafixva.webs.com


    4 members found this post helpful.

  10. #310
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    Jan. 21, 2006
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    989

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    Quote Originally Posted by grandprixjump View Post
    They don't need policing or subpoena powers, All they need is one more rule about investigations, members must have complete transparency, and present all paperwork and testimony required or their suspension becomes permanent. Kind of like someone who writes a bad check to a show. Either make good on requirements or be suspended indefinitely.

    They are a private club, and can make the rules as they see them, no judge can say your rules are illegal as long as they don't discriminate. Suspending someone for failure to obey private club rules isn't discrimination..
    Agreed and said before....



  11. #311
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    Jan. 27, 2000
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    On Blue Run
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    As those of us who may be a little long in the tooth would have said in our youth, Right On DMK.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  12. #312
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    Jun. 17, 2001
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    down the road from bar.ka
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jumper221 View Post
    Scott is one of the most successful hunter riders and trainers in the country. He was suspended for a month within the past year for a medication violation, I believe involving using bute and other NSAIDS in amounts over the allowed limits. He's also apparently on the cover of this month's In Stride (USHJA) magazine, which is leaving bad taste in people's mouth given the recent infractions.
    Just to be accurate, it was 2 violations with 2 different horses at 2 different shows within a short period of time and I think it was last year and ther supension was served earlier this year. He blamed a newish on the road barn person for screwing it up....for what the day care charges are in barns like that, I should think a little more oganization should be expected. And I like the guy and have always tried to catch his rounds.

    And re the big names on Amberhills Facebook page? Most of those people don't even "do" Facebook as a habit let alone remembering who they might have friended a few years back or to support that contest last year. The one that was made to sound like doing a favor for a lucky child that got some well known people helping her with it. They hardly knew her.

    EM was never the biggest name in the business and came off at the shows as normal (or as normal as anybody else sweating by the gate for a Pony round). Seeing somebody casually for 15 minutes every so often does not mean you can tell they are crazy. Even on here, she posted under a different user name until recently-her posts always resulted in trainwrecks but I did not know it actually was somebody I knew very, very slightly until that contest and somebody linking to old posts under the old user name. Somebody with a user name Pony Mom with some numers after it, like a birth date, does not suggest a professional horse person any more then the thread contents did.

    I dislike lawyer letters but can get one right back at her and still have no intention of posting anything on her wall...it just feeds the beast.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  13. #313
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    Dec. 19, 2005
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    Some where in the middle of nowhere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fair judy View Post
    ..... and here you have it folks. if you even POST to Amber Hill's wall you get the attention of tammy tucker, attorney to the lunatic. what a piece of work she must be....... " Ms. Hochschwender,
    Thank you for contacting my client, Elizabeth Mandarino. I understand that you post on the Chronicle Forums as “fair judy.” In June of this year, you posted that Kristen Williams, the woman who filed the protest regarding Humble, had “counsel for the protest.” You also have posted other comments that indicate a working knowledge of facts that are currently being litigated in a case pending in New Jersey. I would like to schedule a time to interview you by telephone regarding these facts. Depending on our discussion, I will be able to determine if we will ultimately need to issue a subpoena for your testimony.
    Please let me know a convenient day and time after January 1 to talk.
    Thank you, Tammy Tucker
    tamara.tucker@nelsontucker.com, 434-979-0049"
    That's amazing I did not realize that the Acme Corporation also specialized in lawyers. I thought they just stuck to anvils and explosives.
    "I would not beleive her if her tongue came notorized"


    14 members found this post helpful.

  14. #314
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    Feb. 2, 2003
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    West
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    1,009

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    Quote Originally Posted by poltroon View Post
    Part of the problem in setting appropriate fines is that there's no single level that has equal pain, because it depends on your income and financial resources. I prefer nice long suspensions. I don't see how a large fine benefits me as a fellow competitor.
    I think it would benefit you and everyone as it would act as an extreme deterrent to having a horse test positive. If it has some serious financial hurt, then people would be less inclined to take chances with drugs and medications, or put their name on an entry blank for a horse that they may not be precisely sure what is getting.

    I think it would "inspire" a lot more fairness in competition. (At least as far as the use of drugs and medications.) I don't think that would be accomplished to such a degree with just a long suspension period.

    I'm not sure what the amount per infraction should be. Enough to hurt most everyone. $15K sounded like a good amount, but maybe it should be more. I don't think that even extremely wealthy people would want to have to pay that as a fine.

    Just because it wouldn't matter to some doesn't mean that it wouldn't help the sport.
    ******
    "A good horse and a good rider are only so in mutual trust."
    -H.M.E.



  15. #315
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    Oct. 2, 1999
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    Mendocino County, CA: Turkey Vulture HQ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horseymama View Post
    I think it would benefit you and everyone as it would act as an extreme deterrent to having a horse test positive. If it has some serious financial hurt, then people would be less inclined to take chances with drugs and medications, or put their name on an entry blank for a horse that they may not be precisely sure what is getting.

    I think it would "inspire" a lot more fairness in competition. (At least as far as the use of drugs and medications.) I don't think that would be accomplished to such a degree with just a long suspension period.

    I'm not sure what the amount per infraction should be. Enough to hurt most everyone. $15K sounded like a good amount, but maybe it should be more. I don't think that even extremely wealthy people would want to have to pay that as a fine.

    Just because it wouldn't matter to some doesn't mean that it wouldn't help the sport.
    Just imagine how different that fine feels to someone who owns and shows a $150k horse and someone who owns a $1500 horse.

    I think it's fair to say that the person with the income that supports a $1500 horse would end up not paying the fine - and thus it's effectively a lifetime suspension.

    Making it a set length of time is more democratic and more even regardless of the infractor's income or wealth. Kill all the points for the show year, make the suspension 6 months or longer.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


    3 members found this post helpful.

  16. #316
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    Feb. 2, 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by poltroon View Post
    Just imagine how different that fine feels to someone who owns and shows a $150k horse and someone who owns a $1500 horse.

    I think it's fair to say that the person with the income that supports a $1500 horse would end up not paying the fine - and thus it's effectively a lifetime suspension.

    Making it a set length of time is more democratic and more even regardless of the infractor's income or wealth. Kill all the points for the show year, make the suspension 6 months or longer.
    I do agree with you that a long suspension, (I think a year or more), should happen for each infraction.

    And I do also agree that a person with a $1500 horse and a limited budget is going to be hurt more by a large fine, but I don't think they are the majority of the people out there trying to skirt the drug rules at rated shows!

    Plus all they have to do is play by the rules and they don't get a fine or a suspension!

    I still think both are a better deterrent than one.
    ******
    "A good horse and a good rider are only so in mutual trust."
    -H.M.E.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  17. #317
    Join Date
    Dec. 22, 2000
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    NY
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    The people who propose mandatory long suspensions combined with huge fines must be the kind of people who never, ever, ever make mistakes. Or have their horses handled by people who never, ever, ever make mistakes.

    For the other 99.98 percent of the human race, it sounds like a bit much.

    For example, I know a very upstanding trainer who got suspended several years ago. She had to go in the hospital for a few days unexpectedly for a health problem. She recovered, got out of the hospital, and went to the next horse show as scheduled. One of the horses tested positive for trace amounts of a sedative. It turned out that while the trainer was in the hospital, the vet had stopped by to do some routine work on the horse and sedated it, but nobody remembered to mention it to the trainer when she got home from the hospital.

    She had a spotless record from decades of showing, and she explained the circumstances to the hearing committee. IIRC, she got a two month suspension and a fine of something like $4,000. Ouch. That seemed plenty harsh enough to me.

    I do think the idea of increased fines and suspensions for repeat offenders has merit, but to clobber somebody for a first offense is overkill. It will certainly be an effective lifetime suspension for many people who either can't afford to pay a huge fine, or who will find some other enjoyable activity to pursue during a yearlong suspension.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  18. #318
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    Oct. 29, 2000
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    Southern Pines, N.C.
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    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/im...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by fair judyhttp://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/im...post-right.png..... and here you have it folks. if you even POST to Amber Hill's wall you get the attention of tammy tucker, attorney to the lunatic. what a piece of work she must be....... " Ms. Hochschwender,
    Thank you for contacting my client, Elizabeth Mandarino. I understand that you post on the Chronicle Forums as “fair judy.” In June of this year, you posted that Kristen Williams, the woman who filed the protest regarding Humble, had “counsel for the protest.” You also have posted other comments that indicate a working knowledge of facts that are currently being litigated in a case pending in New Jersey. I would like to schedule a time to interview you by telephone regarding these facts. Depending on our discussion, I will be able to determine if we will ultimately need to issue a subpoena for your testimony.
    Please let me know a convenient day and time after January 1 to talk.
    Thank you, Tammy Tucker
    tamara.tucker@nelsontucker.com, 434-979-0049"
    Tammy Tucker, you might want to review legal ethics. You are not the attorney of record in the NJ case to which you make reference. By implying that you are Ms. Mandinaro's attorney, you are representing that you have the authority to subpoena people in that or any other case in NJ.

    A review of the NJ Bar Association list of members shows that you are not licensed to practice in that state.

    Perhaps Ms. Tucker should limit her statements to those which are fully accurate; and not make comments which will potentially subject her to an ethics review by the only Bar Association of which she is a member -- the Virginia Bar.

    ~~~~~~~~~~

    Upon rereading the above post it seems more believable that Ms. Tucker, knowing her ethical responsibility and valuing her status as a member of the Virginia Bar Association, is not the person who wrote it. I am willing to give Ms. Tucker the benefit of the doubt that she is a hard working, conscientious lawyer whose name has been used by Ms. Mandarino without her permission or knowledge.
    Don't Worry About Hurting My Feelings Because I Guarantee You, Not One Bit Of My Self Esteem Is Tied Up In Your Acceptance.


    16 members found this post helpful.

  19. #319
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    Sep. 7, 2012
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    179

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    I agree leasing is a great option and often a lifesaver. However, doesn't a horse have to qualify in the hunter divisions for Devon? Even if not, the practice of leasing a pre-qualified horse for Devon or pony finals is a part of this story.



  20. #320
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    May. 5, 2009
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    Location: Indiana, but my heart is in Zone II
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    J
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Helpus View Post
    Tammy Tucker, you might want to review legal ethics. You are not the attorney of record in the NJ case to which you make reference. By implying that you are Ms. Mandinaro's attorney, you are representing that you have the authority to subpoena people in that or any other case in NJ.

    A review of the NJ Bar Association list of members shows that you are not licensed to practice in that state.

    Perhaps Ms. Tucker should limit her statements to those which are fully accurate; and not make comments which will potentially subject her to an ethics review by the only Bar Association of which she is a member -- the Virginia Bar.

    ~~~~~~~~~~

    Upon rereading the above post it seems more believable that Ms. Tucker, knowing her ethical responsibility and valuing her status as a member of the Virginia Bar Association, is not the person who wrote it. I am willing to give Ms. Tucker the benefit of the doubt that she is a hard working, conscientious lawyer whose name has been used by Ms. Mandarino without her permission or knowledge.
    Wow! What would happen in a situation where a lawyer is misrepresenting herself ? To a legal layperson, it is bullying. In actuality, it appears a lie since she has no power in NJ.
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies


    2 members found this post helpful.

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