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  1. #601
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    Quote Originally Posted by amberhill View Post
    Here is the link to the USEF Transcript of the Humble (Kristen Williams) Hearing just to prove I have NOTHING to hide:

    http://amberhillponies.com/Amber_Hil...ranscript.html

    Take note on how the hearing committee drills her.
    It works for me with windows 7, little hard to load but I can read it...or some of the 136 pages of back and forth.

    I would hardly call that transcript much of a defense. EMs lawyer touted "the protester has to prove it, we don't have to produce anything". Then it was pointed out the toxicology was in question because the necropsy was not performed for 36 hours and no blood was pulled in time to get signifigant information...they had to use degraded 36 hours post mortem tissue samples. The body was not even delivered to New Bolton for 12 hours outside the window for viable blood samples.

    So when that pathlologist dropped his probes and tools and excitedly called halfway thru the necropsy to report "emerging lung disease"? At least 3 days after the Pony died.

    Thats just the first 10 pages.

    Who needs RateMyHorsePro? Just read what EM puts up, nobody to sue on that one.

    The Pa State Police are involved, no idea to what extent at this point but USEF did rely on them for some help.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  2. #602
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pennywell Bay View Post
    I am not disputing quieting drugs in hunters, but you are blind if you don't see drugging in jumpers.
    Ditto....


    3 members found this post helpful.

  3. #603
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    Quote Originally Posted by KellyS View Post
    And that's the scary part ~ what was the pony receiving that was NOT listed? I mean, the list only had the drugs on it that are considered "legal" and that list was bad enough, but it doesn't even cover the "illegal/untestable" drugs potentially being administered...

    ETA: While Mandarino claims it was Legend in the syringe, well, we know her track record for telling the truth. If it really was Legend, I'd love to see her 9 lawyers up against Bayer's corporate lawyers.
    Why should she bother with Bayer if she settled with the insurance company? Do we know if they paid out a claim on Humble? Also, since the syringe was not seized, along with whatever was in it, there would not be a way that EM could prove that Legend was administered. No evidence, no suit..in this case it cuts both ways. Nobody knows what was administered except EM and that only benefits her claim that she did nothing wrong.



  4. #604
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    Mario Deslauriers's hard-partying horse


    Have I told you lately that I loff you?

    I pretty much agree w/ you on USEF at this point BTW. I've defended them for decades, but they threw that protester under the bus and I for one don't appreciate it none!

    One thing I did want to throw out there for consideration, in terms of bringing some pressure to bear on USEF - and I don't know HOW this could be done, but I assume that it COULD (and that the NYT article wouldn't hurt) - is how about getting word to the USOC somehow that the NGB for equestrian sport is doing absolutely-effing-nothing to effect cleanup of the sport, and in view of recent decisions, said Federation has effectively rendered its protest procedure null and void?

    I hate to play this kind of hard ball, I'd far rather USEF stood up for itself and did the right thing - but if we could push USEF to the point where they believed their standing as the official NGB was affected, THEN we might see some change.
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief


    3 members found this post helpful.

  5. #605
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    Yes, vineyridge, but that's due to this lawsuit. The vet was found negligent and liable for malpractice, and the case was then taken to the state agency in charge of professional licensing.

    I referred to this case earlier as I made a public records request on it. The horse's vet records are in the file, and if this horse's injection regimen is anything approaching SOP for a show hunter, h/j land is not a place of evidence-based veterinary care.

    About time somebody stepped up to the plate. Vet named is, frankly, not a surprise at all. Whatever else, owner (who has had one great and many very nice ones) should be congratulated for having the guts to openly proceed with it against a very busy and well known show vet. One there have always been some whispers about. Actually used him once for a minor procedure when horse was on the road for 3 weeks-bill was 3 times what it would have cost at home.

    IMO there is a worse problem with overmedicating and using multiple drug combinations on sore horses in any discipline then quieting them and Jumpers would be just as much, or more, likely to need a little "help" as any Hunter.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



  6. #606
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    Quote Originally Posted by violethorse View Post
    Why should she bother with Bayer if she settled with the insurance company? Do we know if they paid out a claim on Humble? Also, since the syringe was not seized, along with whatever was in it, there would not be a way that EM could prove that Legend was administered. No evidence, no suit..in this case it cuts both ways. Nobody knows what was administered except EM and that only benefits her claim that she did nothing wrong.

    She claims the last injection she gave Humble was Legend....and then Humble dropped dead. As a horse owner who has had the vet give my horse Legend, after surgery as part of his recovery, I want to know why a seemingly healthy horse dropped dead after getting Legend. Since Elizabeth Mandarino seems so enthusiastic to bring forth lawsuits, why isn't she suing Bayer, the manufacturer of Legend??

    Is Bayer covering something up about Legend? Does the product need to be taken off the market after the sudden death of Humble after, according to Elizabeth Mandarino of Amber Hill Farm, and be investigated?? Is their product dangerous?? Will my horse drop dead just like Humble did??

    We should all be contacting Bayer and demanding answers from them regarding the allegations as put forth by Elizabeth Mandarino.
    Quote Originally Posted by alicen View Post
    We have no intentions of tarring and feathering anyone: this is now a thread about dipping Ryan Reynolds in chocolate.


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  7. #607
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    Umm......have you seen the medication schedule that the pony was on?? Me thinks that Legend was the least of his problems....


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  8. #608
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freebird! View Post
    Umm......have you seen the medication schedule that the pony was on?? Me thinks that Legend was the least of his problems....
    Freebird, I think if you read it again you'll conclude that the poster does not actually believe that an injection of Legend caused the pony's death. However, with EM saying it did, if she is correct, then that leads down some, ahem, interesting paths.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


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  9. #609
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    Quote Originally Posted by findeight View Post
    Who needs RateMyHorsePro? Just read what EM puts up, nobody to sue on that one.
    I agree. Everyone should read the transcript. It's more damning than anything that's been posted on any forum I continue to bang my head in sympathy for the 9 attorneys who are bleeding this woman dry.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  10. #610
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    I will be interested to see whether this very significant article gets discussed during the GM Horsemastership Clinic that begins tomorrow. The biggest challenge is that everyone there will probably think that Ms. Mandarino is perpetually self-medicated with whatever "wasn't" in the syringe (the one they never recovered from Humble). They may easily dismiss her as a deviant. But, if they really explore the subject with the vets during the portions of the clinic that address horse care, they may get some very interesting observations/thoughts from the kids that came up through the pony and hunter ranks. Hope they broadcast that part!


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  11. #611
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    @ Findeight, since you read the transcript too, am I correct that on page 77 (or thereabouts) it says that Gabby, the groom who may or may not have been the one who actually gave the shot, is "presumed illegal," has disappeared, and has never provided an affidavit or been deposed?
    Last edited by Jeito; Jan. 1, 2013 at 09:17 PM.


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  12. #612
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    Don't suppose there is a live feed of the vet symposium on that???? They need to discuss the subject in general, even if they leave EM and her hoards of lawyers out of it. After all, one of their own just went down in a lawsuit referenced a couple opf pages ago.

    I'd LOVE to sit in on that.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.



  13. #613
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    Quote Originally Posted by War Admiral View Post

    One thing I did want to throw out there for consideration, in terms of bringing some pressure to bear on USEF - and I don't know HOW this could be done, but I assume that it COULD (and that the NYT article wouldn't hurt) - is how about getting word to the USOC somehow that the NGB for equestrian sport is doing absolutely-effing-nothing to effect cleanup of the sport, and in view of recent decisions, said Federation has effectively rendered its protest procedure null and void?

    I hate to play this kind of hard ball, I'd far rather USEF stood up for itself and did the right thing - but if we could push USEF to the point where they believed their standing as the official NGB was affected, THEN we might see some change.
    Oh, trust me. I've already started that process. A perk of not only living where the USOC and Anti-Doping Agency are located, but having military Reserve coworkers who are full-time employees/coaches/trainers various sports within the USOC community. I don't know how far it will go, but it definitely piqued the interest of one Paralympic trainer/coach in particular.
    "IT'S NOT THE MOUNTAIN WE CONQUER, BUT OURSELVES." SIR EDMUND HILLARYMember of the "Someone Special To Me Serves In The Military" Clique


    3 members found this post helpful.

  14. #614
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    Quote Originally Posted by Discobold View Post
    @ Findeight, since you read to transcript too, am I correct that on page 77 (or thereabouts) it says that Gabby, the groom who may or may not have been the one who actually gave the shot, is "presumed illegal," has disappeared, and has never provided an affidavit or been deposed?
    I quit after page 10 and the late necropsy complicating any toxicology findings. I have been sipping the last of the bubbly and can't follow the gibberish of hearing procedures at the moment. Besides the format is wierd.

    Wouldn't surprise me a bit tho. That very subject was referenced either here or on my Humble Initiative thread, expecting the "help" to do the deeds then blaming them for being "illegals" and vanishing. Crap, any groom regardless of status who was directed to give a shot and had the animal drop dead would probably split too.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  15. #615
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    EM has posted letters from her vets in New Jersey, Florida, and Juan Gamboa (NC and Classic Company's show vet) on her amber hill farm Facebook page and many other documents. In their letters to the USEF they all praise EM for her horse's care etc. Of course Gamboa spends most of the space in his letter stating that he never sold any Carolina Gold to EM. If he did, would he have stated that in a letter to the USEF? Of course not given the banning of it. Also attached to her Facebook page are letters from her landlord, a customer leasing one of her ponies, her husband, etc.
    At the end of the day we will never know all the details..but the outcome of all this publicity is that going forward more people will be more sensitive as to who they do business with..trainers, vets, etc...and that somehow the USEF will find a way to be aggressive and severe where they can prove drug issues. Civil cases do not have the same guidelines as criminal matters but it seems as though the USEF in it's hearings wants ironclad proof (tox reports, pictures, video or an admission of guilt) that an infraction has taken place. Black and White. Their current punishment for infractions are a joke and the recent USHJA cover photo is a testament to broken oversight. Can you search for all of SS's disciplinary actions over the years on the USEF site? NO....you would have to look at every month's "for the record" pages over the years. So the actions just fade away as each month comes and goes.....washed away with the most recent turmoil.
    Again, only EM knows what took place and to debate anything else is futile.
    We need to get the USEF to be a real governing body with some serious teeth or see the demise of hunters..it may already be tooooo late for a new generation of youngsters whose parents read the NYT and are walking away from the child's dream of owning a pony.


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  16. #616
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    Quote Originally Posted by findeight View Post
    Don't suppose there is a live feed of the vet symposium on that???? They need to discuss the subject in general, even if they leave EM and her hoards of lawyers out of it. After all, one of their own just went down in a lawsuit referenced a couple opf pages ago.

    I'd LOVE to sit in on that.
    Who is that vet?



  17. #617
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    Quote Originally Posted by violethorse View Post
    Why should she bother with Bayer if she settled with the insurance company? Do we know if they paid out a claim on Humble? Also, since the syringe was not seized, along with whatever was in it, there would not be a way that EM could prove that Legend was administered. No evidence, no suit..in this case it cuts both ways. Nobody knows what was administered except EM and that only benefits her claim that she did nothing wrong.
    I was being a bit facetious! Of course we know it wasn't Legend that killed Humble. But EM's claim that Legend what was in the syringe makes it sound likes she's saying Legend is the culprit.

    Big Pharma frowns on those types of accusations but I'm sure Bayer would figure out, as have the rest of us, that very few people are taking her claims seriously.
    Kelly Soldavin Harvest Moon Farm
    www.harvestmoonfarmpa.com


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  18. #618
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    Quote Originally Posted by poltroon View Post
    Freebird, I think if you read it again you'll conclude that the poster does not actually believe that an injection of Legend caused the pony's death. However, with EM saying it did, if she is correct, then that leads down some, ahem, interesting paths.

    Indeed. I would think that Bayer may be very interested in what Elizabeth Mandarino is saying about their product.
    Quote Originally Posted by alicen View Post
    We have no intentions of tarring and feathering anyone: this is now a thread about dipping Ryan Reynolds in chocolate.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  19. #619
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    So I read the Chronicle of the Horse, is it as bad as all the big names I see there...on the cover as you said...I have loved the emergence of the Hunter Classics and Derbies...is it everyone that is drugging? I breed sport horses but I want nothing to do with risking selling drugged horses sent to be sold by trainers and fooling customers or selling to homes that use horses like that. Who is honest...I can see how you can risk legal action if you out the dishonest...is it naive to out the honest? I suppose so. How sad.



  20. #620
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    Quote Originally Posted by findeight View Post

    Wouldn't surprise me a bit tho. That very subject was referenced either here or on my Humble Initiative thread, expecting the "help" to do the deeds then blaming them for being "illegals" and vanishing. Crap, any groom regardless of status who was directed to give a shot and had the animal drop dead would probably split too.
    Back in my younger days, I was a working student/groom at a nationally winning barn in that breed's equivalent of the A circuit during a similar type of reprehensible systemic abuse -that is still occurring these twenty years later.

    I am second-generation mexican-american. My great-grandparents were migrant farmworkers. My BS degree is in the social sciences. I'm saying that because I don't want this to come out wrong: If you really want to know what is happening at the big shows and in the big barns, take someone with you who speaks Spanish and go talk to the stable hands. They see everything and know exactly who is doing what to whom.

    Because the stable hands tend are sometimes here in the US without legal immigration papers, they are afraid to speak for fear of deportation. My experience was that the BNTs had their "illegals" or "Mexicans" do the actual doping/soreing/whatever, so that if it was ever exposed, the BNT could then publicly profess innocence and blame everything on the now-fired or deported "illegal."

    Humans are an invasive species. Thank you all for sharing your expertise.
    Regards,
    Amber


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