[lauriep]

Disagree, you can give ace IM or orally and some other sedatives IM. Also banamine can be given orally as well. I do not think anyone should be allowed to give IV injection other than a vet or vet tech working with a vet.

Giving drugs IM is fine if it isn't an emergency, but if a horse is colicking badly, or hurt badly, you want to get those drugs in the bloodstream as quickly as possible. Orally is the SLOWEST way and I would never rely on that for a bad colic.. IV injections aren't rocket science if you learn the technique correctly. I have seen MANY vets who suck at IV injections and have turned my previously easy to inject horses into fearful jerks. Any trainer or barn manger should be competent in giving an IV shot. Which has NOTHING to do with the problem of drugging horses.

[Discobold]

PS. Haven't yet seen a horse die from Banamine deficiency.

And I haven't yet seen a child die from blue ribbon deficiency

[SnicklefritzG]

And I haven't yet seen a child die from blue ribbon deficiency

Maybe not die but massive temper tantrum.

[saratoga]

I just dont understand the need for all of these drugs, let alone IV injections...maybe because I've never competed in the upper levels of any sport where the mindset seems to be common. At shows, I have a "trainer" but she's not my Puppet Master...I wouldnt want anyone but a vet, that I called, going anywhere near my horses with a needle. I think saying that you NEED to have syringes and a supply of injectable meds at shows is bizarre. Yes, colics and injuries do happen, but they are rare and its not like shows are held in the middle of nowhere where a vet might not be available. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure someone has an anecdote about just this happening at a show and thank God their trainer was there during a colic or the horse would have died, but seriously, people! I've gone to many, many, many shows and events and rides in my day, by myself and with groups, and I/we never packed any needles or injectables and no horse ever suffered because of it.

[vineyridge]

Don't know if this has been mentioned here, but it is on the thread on the Breeding board.

There is an article in the current COTH about the USEF and drugs. Apparently the vet in charge of the USEF program brags that USEF has spent the past eighteen months working for an exemption from FEI rules on FEI disciplines adopting FEI drug rules for National events. Of course the FEI Rules are much more stringent than USEF drug rules. He's PROUD that the US is allowed to apply its current rules instead of FEI ones.

I know Hunters are not an FEI discipline, but the horses should still have FEI level protection and not the lax USEF ones. Why are US horses includng those in the FEI disciplines, so much more frail and medication dependent than horses in the rest of the world?

[gumshoe]

Were these shows where you stabled 5 or 6 days at a time? Or shows that were multiple weeks and the horses lived on the show grounds for 3 weeks without leaving?

I just dont understand the need for all of these drugs, let alone IV injections...maybe because I've never competed in the upper levels of any sport where the mindset seems to be common. At shows, I have a "trainer" but she's not my Puppet Master...I wouldnt want anyone but a vet, that I called, going anywhere near my horses with a needle. I think saying that you NEED to have syringes and a supply of injectable meds at shows is bizarre. Yes, colics and injuries do happen, but they are rare and its not like shows are held in the middle of nowhere where a vet might not be available. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure someone has an anecdote about just this happening at a show and thank God their trainer was there during a colic or the horse would have died, but seriously, people! I've gone to many, many, many shows and events and rides in my day, by myself and with groups, and I/we never packed any needles or injectables and no horse ever suffered because of it.

[findeight]

FEI rules also require sequestration and controlled access which is not going to fly with over 2k horses on the grounds...and who is going to pay for the security guards and fencing? What about haul ins, most are not going to want to be there with a stall 12 or 24 hours out or more as FEI requires.

If you are speaking of zero tolerance? I think thats a little draconian with horses living on the road for weeks at a time as is the reality of the show circuit today, like it or not.

I don't see a thing wrong with declared therapeutic amounts within a defined time frame for specific reasons approved by a vet-and they are busting alot of people for abusing those limits...but the penalties are a joke and that's a big part of it. I have no problem declaring them or the reason they were given and a vets name.

For the record, mine went on 1.5 g of bute paste 12 hours out when stabled on concrete and living on the road without turnout, regumate or Depo from April thru Sept. Once or twice she got dex at least 12 hours out for actual hives (with no behavior change noted). She had hock injections every 18 months or so from age 15 to when she was retired at age 20. She got Legend IV about a week before shows and then I switched to the oral LubriSyn. Thats all.

I think the vet profession overall needs to take a hard look at themselves and their ethics here too.

But don't see the need for FEI level enforcement with no additional infrastructure when we cannot even enforce what we have now.

[vineyridge]

They could adopt the FEI standards on responsible parties and the FEI standards on what are considered illegal medications, as well as the FEI standards on pre-filing when a medication is used before competition. They haven't even done that. Mario Deslauriers didn't get set down by the USEF when his horse tested positive for cocaine at the USEF sanctioned Olympic Trials. He lost Jane Clark as a sponsor, though. She's bolted the USEF, and her show jumpers are now being ridden by a Brit. You'd think that loss would make an impact.

[Molly99]

Don't know if this has been mentioned here, but it is on the thread on the Breeding board.

There is an article in the current COTH about the USEF and drugs. Apparently the vet in charge of the USEF program brags that USEF has spent the past eighteen months working for an exemption from FEI rules on FEI disciplines adopting FEI drug rules for National events. Of course the FEI Rules are much more stringent than USEF drug rules. He's PROUD that the US is allowed to apply its current rules instead of FEI ones.

I know Hunters are not an FEI discipline, but the horses should still have FEI level protection and not the lax USEF ones. Why are US horses includng those in the FEI disciplines, so much more frail and medication dependent than horses in the rest of the world?

What you failed to include in this was that they were working to be allowed for FEI disciplines to apply their OWN rules and not use the mandatory FEI suspension times.

This work did not have any impact on the how hunter drug ininfractions would be applied as they are not an FEI discipline.

Also, the FEI has a zero tolerance only in the last few years, due to work of the USEF, has started to allow certain medications.

The USEF drug lab is afterall an approved FEI lab.

What they worked on, had NOTHING, to do with the permitted drugs. That had already been addressed for non-FEI disciplines. FEI disciplines have stricter guidelines even if it is only a national level show. At least now, the USEF can use their judgement in determining suspension times.

Before this FEI ruling, if you showed in the jumpers at a local USEF show and misjudged the amount of Bute you gave the horse, were drug tested and found positive; you would have been subject to the FEI suspension period. Now the USEF can use their own hearing panel to decide the time period and infraction.

Would you really have been OK for an FEI level suspension imposed on a .90m horses at a small USEF show simply because the FEI bans that substance and the FEI allows a small amount?

[Molly99]

The FEI deems the rider as the responsible party. If that would to be the USEF responsible party you would never have a catch rider again. You better hope you have access to a good rider in your current barn. Juniors/parents would be less inclined to allow their children to catch ride horses for the simple liability.

Plus the FEI has age restrictions where would all the under 14 children show???

You can't simple move to part of the FEI rules, without looking at all the implications of their other rules that are part of their big picture.

USEF is a national level, it makes sense that the FEI (international) would have more restrictions.

Look at any other sport the rules become tighter as you move up the ladder.

We need to stop trying to be the FEI. They are far from perfect with their own set of issues.

[vineyridge]

Yes, indeedy. The USEF has been a force in the FEI to move away from zero tolerance. I don't consider that a benefit. As to your last question, the answer is "Yes". If the FEI penalty applied, maybe more riders, trainers and owners would be less willing to inject.

I agree that hunters isn't an FEI discipline, so FEI penalties wouldn't apply there. But we're still talking horses and riders and horse welfare; and why should hunters be less protected than reiners and show jumpers and eventers and dressage horses? Or, as the USEF has done, reduce the protection for the other disciplines to match that of hunters?

Other countries have multiple FEI competition opportunities for the young and even young on ponies. Not the United States and the USEF. Why not? I just looked at the FEI Jumping rules and they make provision for 12 and over, Children, Juniors, Young Riders and Ponies. They do have some height limits--for 12 year olds, it's 1.20 meters.

From recent results, whatever the USEF is doing isn't working. We did much better internationally under AHSA.

As to catch riding, that basically means that we prefer to protect riders on drugged horses rather than getting to the knot of the problem which is the drugging itself. If no catch riders would be willing to ride, well, tough. The trainers who drug would either have to quit drugging or do without. If it cost them money to hire a "barn rider", tough. They'd be going through "barn riders" like snot through kleenex.

[Limerick]

I will ask again-is there a valid reason to pack liquid magnesium in your show trunk??

[lauriep]

I will ask again-is there a valid reason to pack liquid magnesium in your show trunk??

No.

[Limerick]

Why can't USEF fine those caught with it? I know one needs to prove intent but since there are no valid reasons for having it, couldn't it be treated like alcohol in a teen's high school locker??

[Jumper221]

Why can't USEF fine those caught with it? I know one needs to prove intent but since there are no valid reasons for having it, couldn't it be treated like alcohol in a teen's high school locker??

Even if the USEF had the time or power to search everyone's trunks (and again, without FEI level stabling, not sure how that would work), it would be pretty easy for people to just tear the label off the bottles.

[PonyPenny]

I will ask again-is there a valid reason to pack liquid magnesium in your show trunk??

Check out this website http://www.nupafeedusa.com/magnesium.htm

[lauriep]

Or they just keep it off the showgrounds unless they are using it. Not hard. If someone doesn't want to be seen injecting a horse, it isn't hard to do. There are 24 hours in a day, and many of those hours have very few people on the showgrounds.

[fair judy]

seriously, go to the Amber Hill Farm facebook page and say what you feel on her wall. i did, i am sarah hochschwender. also look on elizabeth's personal page. first thing you see are names of people i respect and consider friends in most cases. why are Robin Greenwood, Bill Schaub, Anna Jane White-Mullin, Cynthia Williams, Jimmy Lee, Missy Roads, Ron Danta, and Don Stewart acting as de facto endorsers of this lunatic ? WHY not just quietly delete your name from her list? this crazy woman has already proven that she relies heavily on facebook and other internet connections to gain clients. she will point to her position vby showing these REAL BNT names as proof of her legitimacy. this is not about that poor child and being NICE to her. we have a cancer in this business, and it is time to excise it.

[JER]

Who is Scott Stewart? His name is mentioned on here repeatedly, usually with nothing other than 'Scott Stewart' in the post.

So please explain, for those of us who don't speak the shorthand of the h/j scene.

[fair judy]

..... and here you have it folks. if you even POST to Amber Hill's wall you get the attention of tammy tucker, attorney to the lunatic. what a piece of work she must be....... " Ms. Hochschwender,
Thank you for contacting my client, Elizabeth Mandarino. I understand that you post on the Chronicle Forums as “fair judy.” In June of this year, you posted that Kristen Williams, the woman who filed the protest regarding Humble, had “counsel for the protest.” You also have posted other comments that indicate a working knowledge of facts that are currently being litigated in a case pending in New Jersey. I would like to schedule a time to interview you by telephone regarding these facts. Depending on our discussion, I will be able to determine if we will ultimately need to issue a subpoena for your testimony.
Please let me know a convenient day and time after January 1 to talk.
Thank you, Tammy Tucker
tamara.tucker@nelsontucker.com, 434-979-0049"