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  1. #201
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    According to this web site the peak effect of IV hyaluronate sodium (Legend) is approximately 48 hours ...

    I got an error message when I tried to pull up the package insert on Bayer's website.


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  2. #202
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    Oh, I think it would be a great idea to have it available for a buyers vet. Rather then have the wheels basically come off an expensive purchase when whatever it was routinely filled with at the shows wears off. If it was purchased in an at home situation some time after the last show? Buyer would have no idea it only showed juiced on "legal" nsaids and various untestable substances.

    That has happened to at least a half dozen folks I know even with a reputable agent/trainer on their side and a good PPE with a blood draw.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


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  3. #203
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    Gumshoe - scroll down the page to where it talks about Legend. It does say peak IV injection time is 48 hours.

    Legend is labelled for IV and IA use...however only the 2 ml vial is to be used for IA.
    http://bayer.naccvp.com/?m=product_v...&u=bayer&p=dvm

    In reference to the necropsy - it does no surprise me that Humble had the beginnings of lung disease. I would bet that a large number of horses that travel and show that much would have lung changes. Jeez - think all the NSAIDs and Dex had something to do with it progressing or the pony not showing signs? How would a horse ever show a fever being on so much already?
    Only two emotions belong in the saddle: One is a sense of humor. The other is patience.


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  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticky Situation View Post
    According to this web site the peak effect of IV hyaluronate sodium (Legend) is approximately 48 hours ...

    I got an error message when I tried to pull up the package insert on Bayer's website.
    I received the same error. I just can't see pharmacologically how given 2 hours prior is effective. It may have become "standard" but that does not say much. Again, I would not mind being wrong about it but considering where the HA or Hsodium needs to get to for maximum efficacy (joints), I don't see it.
    Come to the dark side, we have cookies



  5. #205
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    Default Legend insert info

    Hmmm. I got curious enough to pull out a Legend insert. Front clearly says IV. Back indicates resting after treatment. I suppose that doing anything other than the proscribed up to three treatments at weekly intervals is off-label, meaning that there is more off- than on-label use.

    But that is hardly the main issue here.

    I can't find anything on the insert about a time profile.
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    Last edited by Peggy; Dec. 29, 2012 at 04:35 PM. Reason: added last sentence
    The Evil Chem Prof


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  6. #206
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    I agree, but consider the daunting challenges. Most top hunter judges have sold the ponies/horses that are showing in their rings. They've promoted them as "the hack winners" or being "quiet as church mice." This is just the economic truth given the fact that those who judge and train may also sell. When you have a vested interest in performance, it undermines objectivity, regardless how objective you think you might be (and I believe that many judges try like crazy to be fair, even while occasionally glancing down at cell phones). So hunter and eq trainers subscribe to the "do no wrong" theory of making the horses and ponies so quiet that they practically fall over the jumps (just watch the videos from Indoors and the (chortle) National Horse Show). And, to be honest as well, how many mommies and daddies want to schlep their precious kids to showgrounds at 4am so that the horses/ponies can be flatted and prepped without ridiculous amounts of lunging or drugs? Been there, at 4am, and I can say that there are a scant few!

    This system is really broken at the base and requires bravery and total re-engineering to fix it! It's also one of the reasons why hunter derbies, originally envisioned to restore excitement and playfulness, have been dumbed down to elongated classics. People with vision and brass need to step in but it's not going to be incumbents with vested, parochial interests. I read the USEF's statements and I will no longer support this spineless drivel. And I hope that I will never see another cover of InStride, featuring such hypocrisy. God bless The NYT!

    Quote Originally Posted by RanchoAdobe View Post
    I'd love to discuss more Julie's point of view- change the incentives and the behavior will change accordingly.

    Change the judging and many problems will be solved (though how to change judging is also a great discussion topic). If horses are not rewarded, as they are currently, for robotic appearances than in turn less horses will be drugged to win in the ring (and less lunging/riding/schooling may also lead to less need for soundness type drugs as well?).

    Also, I have heard and agree with talk of changing courses. The current simple courses (single, side, diagonal, side) promote robotic, metronome performances. Less related distances, more singles, less groundlines will, perhaps, reward pace and more "spark" in the hunter ring. Why can't the hunter ring move more towards the derby ideal?

    Any other ideas on how to change the game, so to speak. Every poster on this forum has brought up the difficulties of focusing only on the drug rules/enforcement. The cost of vet only administered injections and problems with FEI type stabling, the difficulty of testing for "naturally occuring" drugs such as Mg, how to decipher between performance enhancing and legitimate comfort.

    .... so what else can we do to eliminate the incentives for abuse?
    Last edited by adhock; Dec. 30, 2012 at 05:27 PM.


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  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHM View Post
    There are vets who will do just that.
    Considering that the vast majority of the parenteral medications currently being abused ultimately got into the hands of the owners/trainers through the cooperation of a DVM, I'm sorry to have to agree with you.

    I am ashamed of my profession in this regard.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.


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  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghazzu View Post
    Considering that the vast majority of the parenteral medications currently being abused ultimately got into the hands of the owners/trainers through the cooperation of a DVM, I'm sorry to have to agree with you.

    I am ashamed of my profession in this regard.
    Agreed.... but knowing that the information is being tracked and is available might just prompt vets to act more cautiously



  9. #209
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    Earlier this year, I made a public records request on a state professional/licensing board case against a popular h/j show vet. The vet had a malpractice judgment against him in a lawsuit involving the death of a horse, and his name had popped up in the eye-popping Raggedy Ann pony saga.

    The malpractice issue was a rather simple case of overwhelming negligence. But the horse's vet records were in the document dump, and those were the more interesting part.

    This horse, who was IIRC an imported 8 year-old AA or A/O hunter, had so many joint injections it was amazing that he could walk at all. Every part of his leg, foot, back, you name it, all receiving regular injections.

    To cap it off, this BN vet -- according to his own records -- was injecting joints with Tildren. And I do not mean administering it IV, as it's intended. I mean that his own records said that he was injecting it into the joint capsule.

    I didn't know what to make of this, as I'd never heard of this particular off-label use, so I asked a scientist with experience in that field. He said it was 'probably useless' as a joint injection, but also that it shouldn't harm the horse. But where do vets come up with these things?

    This was also a case where the vet's negligent treatment could easily have resulted in serious injury to the owner.

    I do hope all involved learn from these incidents but perhaps I'm being overly optimistic.


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  10. #210
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    There are a couple of issues here, all intertwined to some extent.

    • Judging standards that reward the lopey (dopey?) look in the hunters and a robot in the eq. Not saying that the kids can't ride a non-robot, just that it's extremely helpful to be sitting on one.
    • Using pharmaceuticals to achieve said look.
    • Using pharmaceuticals to keep a horse comfortable.
    • Using pharmaceuticals in off-label manners, doses, and combinations, including some that can cause harm, but generally not death.
    • Administering pharmaceuticals in a fashion that has killed horses non-anomalously, for example IV Mg


    IMHO, you could probably almost eliminate the deaths via pharmaceuticals by prohibiting needles and syringes in the barn area, but it's unenforceable and impractical. Yes, the FEI does it, but that is a small, restricted stabling area and my understanding is that you can get around it. No matter what the rules are, some people are going to figure out how to circumvent them and do so.

    Given that USEF has enough difficulty enforcing the existing drug in a manner that prevents people from violating them, more restrictions (no needles, zero-NSAID policy, etc) probably aren't the answer.

    Making a violation more painful (larger fines, longer suspensions, suspensions of all trainers and assistants associated with a program), broader (not just trainers, but owners and riders), longer, and having them escalate with each violation is, IMHO, the way to go. It won't solve everything as, again, some people are going to figure out how to circumvent them and do so. Increased penalties will also make it likelier that people will sue USEF and/or the sample collector and/or anyone they can think of.

    Changing the judging standards would also be helpful.

    ----------------
    I am thinking not only of the horse world, but my experience teaching Organic Chemistry to pre-meds, as I type this. There is zero point in telling them not to cheat if you're not going to enforce it. Since you can't watch or catch everyone, you also need to make it harder for people to cheat, or easier for them not to cheat.
    The Evil Chem Prof


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  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Helpus;They are boasting that a task force WILL be meeting in Feb. of 2013.

    [URL
    http://www.usefnetwork.com/news/9441/2012/12/28/usefs_response_to_the_new_york_tim.aspx[/URL]
    Wow, what total dysfunction, the task force should have been priority number one at the time of the pony' death; at the least, after they realized EM could not be charged. Instead they wait until a NYTimes investigative artive airs their dirt. This says volumes!
    "You gave your life to become the person you are right now. Was it worth it?" Richard Bach



  12. #212
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    I thought an earlier poster's suggestion of a new division was very interesting. If it is too hard to change the judging standard, courses, ect in the current divisions- why not create an entire "Performance Hunter" division with standards that promote the original ideal of the derby (pace, brilliance, style) and courses that incorporate a greater variety of jumps and non-related distances. Why not have a "Performance Hunter" ring with open and restricted divisions at various heights? Even the 2'6 ammy hunters may actually desire a little more challenge at a safe, comfortable height. Most shows have more than one hunter ring, would it really be that difficult to designate one hunter ring the "performance" ring. This would give those horses with a little too much spark, but beautiful style and jump a place to excel, as well as offering as giving riders a place to be more challenged (or challenged in a different way) than the current hunter divisions. I think it would be interesting to see if a performance section would soon become more popular thant the current USEF hunter divisions.


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  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molly99 View Post

    One of the scariest things to me, was the realization that many in the room did not know the "brand name" was really X drug.
    Molly - I found this to be scary as well. Trainers have to stop trying to "diagnose and treat" their horses without a vet's prescription. And vets have to start obeying the laws and not dispense medications without specific prescriptions for each shot. Unfortunately that will never happen since the vets have to pay back their student loans and trainers will continue to pester them for bottles. But all trainers should at least take the time to learn what they are putting into their horses and learn the pharmacology behind the medications. It would change a lot.


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  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by juststartingout View Post
    Actually making it available for sale and PPE would be a great idea. Why not -- if you are selling a horse based on its record - why shouldn't the buyer know what medications were necessary to produce that record. I am not naive -- it will be an issue, but if we want to be treated as a professional and honest sport with integrity why not.
    Totally agree.
    "I used to have money, now I have horses."


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  15. #215
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    I have been doing rated shows since the early 70s (including being an AHSA official) and I have become so disheartened at the progressive decline of this sport. The sad thing is is that EM is just the type of the iceberg.

    Showing used to be about competition to find the best horse, I honestly believe the decline in horsemanship started with the "big box" circuits. It has become a very expensive business where you pay the show management for your horse to be ridden in a class (that no one watches anymore) so that horse can either be marketed for more money or the trainer makes enormous training fees, daycare fees, etc.

    I'm also tired of seeing the vanity ads in the hard copy Chronicle praising some BN show vets for the wonderful care of their horses when I know from first hand experiences of some horrid practices they do to keep the winner going. I heard of the calcium IV over 10 years ago during a major circuit that the show vet was offering. It had to be injected slowly or there was a slight chance of your horse's heart stopping. I was appalled. This vet also performed nerve blocks so that the foot sore horses could continue going. OR the BNT trainer praises that I see on here and the hard print COTH - when he insists on alcohol blocks in the tails of his equitation horses and hunters to make them less distracting.

    And I'm sorry - but why does show management have Juan Gamboa as the show vet after this Carolina Gold debacle? I feel nothing is going to change because it is the show
    management and some of these guilty trainers running the USHJA and USEF. The money has become so large that these problems are just going to get worse.

    One can only hope that USEF will finally listen and come up with major changes.
    I know that USHJA will continue as is.


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  16. #216
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    I'm sorry to say I don't think the "decline" of US H/J is anything new. We have the biggest black mark on our sport of any horse discipline. Forget the plasic surgery Arabians or the bleeding WP QHs or even the big lick walkers-- it was our industry that had the horse killers and by GOD if people showing now don't even KNOW IT HAPPENED. We've always been the worst and it's always been about the money and it makes me sick to my stomach to admit it-- but it's true. We are the worst offenders, as a general discipline.

    The heartening thing is that there are so many people who are out there who are so GOOD. People who love to ride and love horses. Owners, riders, and trainers. Pros and ammys alike who do it the RIGHT way. And there are more of us good folks, even if we're peons, than the really bad bad offenders.

    But the reality is that where money goes... so does the nasty behavior... and we've got an awful lot of both swirling around in our discipline and we have for a very long time. and our "governing" body is as guilty of following the money as anyone else.
    ~Veronica
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  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by gabby.gator View Post
    at one of the small show associations I belong to/show at, their policy is that if you have a horse test positive for a banned substance, every. single. horse/rider associated with that barn/trainer is disqualified for that year, and one year following. as a result, every single one of us has to be very careful if one of the horses needs a bute, etc, and we've been known to break out the calculators to figure how much bute a horse could get within the allowable time before the next show time. horses are tested at random, but every one of us is accountable for the actions of anyone on the team. this is a non rated show series.
    This is what more local associations should do! One of the several local associations here has a trainer that is quite famous for drugging her horses as well. A person did attempt to report her and no one would test her because of the cost. The person who stepped forward was ostracized from the association. It is disgusting in my opinion that things happen this way. You are correct that all associations should set tough boundaries, local or not and like many other posters mentioned, the rated series need to be very strict. While I hate to see people associated with guilty trainers punished, it is what we have to do to make an example.


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  18. #218
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    Buy an OTTB and learn how to ride it. Then there will be less need for all this drug crap


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  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    I'm sorry to say I don't think the "decline" of US H/J is anything new. ... it's always been about the money and it makes me sick to my stomach to admit it-- but it's true. We are the worst offenders, as a general discipline.

    The heartening thing is that there are so many people who are out there who are so GOOD. People who love to ride and love horses. Owners, riders, and trainers. Pros and ammys alike who do it the RIGHT way. And there are more of us good folks, even if we're peons, than the really bad bad offenders.

    But the reality is that where money goes... so does the nasty behavior... and we've got an awful lot of both swirling around in our discipline and we have for a very long time. and our "governing" body is as guilty of following the money as anyone else.
    I've got to say that it is REALLY unfair and biased to point to money as the source of the problem. Money is not bad -- in fact money often allows one to purchase the horse that is suited to the job - the horse that does not need much maintenance - the horse that is properly trained - and therefore there is no need for drugs and shortcuts,

    I would prefer to place the blame on the "I have to have it now" ..."I have to win" ...culture we have all created. I prefer to place the blame on those of us who stood by silently and did nothing when we knew what was going on.

    The USEF and the USHJA are in fact a reflection of their members - they are our organizations - and until and unless we demand a change in how things are done it simply won't happen. It won't happen if we spend time pointing fingers at one another.


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  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by anmoro View Post
    This is what more local associations should do! One of the several local associations here has a trainer that is quite famous for drugging her horses as well. A person did attempt to report her and no one would test her because of the cost. The person who stepped forward was ostracized from the association. It is disgusting in my opinion that things happen this way. You are correct that all associations should set tough boundaries, local or not and like many other posters mentioned, the rated series need to be very strict. While I hate to see people associated with guilty trainers punished, it is what we have to do to make an example.
    If this policy were implemented, I would simply sign for myself as trainer and I expect others would do the same thing. I don't agree that the innocent should be punished along with the guilty.
    "Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?" Sun Tzu, The Art of War
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