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  1. #101
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    You've pretty much just described me. Fortunately, this quality has made me a pretty good scientist, so it's not an entirely negative characteristic.
    I'm really hoping that's how he turns out, but he's such a skeptic that getting through school is becoming a challenge for him. Sometimes you just have to learn that there are things that one has to do, even if one can't/doesn't understand them just yet!

    In my understanding grace = forgiveness. You are given it, it's not earned. However, Jesus also says that by their deeds you will know them (followers of Jesus) so actions are important but I'm not sure that they relate to the forgiveness bit, which is complicated!



  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by SendenHorse View Post
    I think if I read it right-- she/he is Catholic (?) I know other Catholics who think like this too-- have to earn heaven. Its very common in their type of christianity
    Yes. DH is Catholic, he believes in "works" to earn salvation. This was a big bone of contention between he and his ex, who is born again and believed you could only be saved by "grace". Catholics are most certainly Christian!



  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by f4leggin View Post
    Saved by grace not works. Huge fundemental in Christianity. Where does your belief that it's different come, Guilherme? Very curious.
    The problem with the "saved by grace alone" approach is that it nullifies the second of the Two Great Commandments.

    I understand why Luther came to this conclusion, but he was flat, dead wrong. As is anyone who follows the advice.

    G.

    P.S. Now you see what theological discussion has pitfalls?!?!?!
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão



  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guilherme View Post
    The problem with the "saved by grace alone" approach is that it nullifies the second of the Two Great Commandments.

    I understand why Luther came to this conclusion, but he was flat, dead wrong. As is anyone who follows the advice.

    G.

    P.S. Now you see what theological discussion has pitfalls?!?!?!
    Would you mind elaborating?



  5. #105
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    For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God Ephesians 2:8

    "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin...For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." Rom. 3:20, 28

    "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified." (Galatians 2:16) -


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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guilherme View Post
    The problem with the "saved by grace alone" approach is that it nullifies the second of the Two Great Commandments.

    I understand why Luther came to this conclusion, but he was flat, dead wrong. As is anyone who follows the advice.
    Oh dear, I hope you realize both what you said and how that came across...???

    I don't follow your logic here... the 10 commandments have nothing to do with salvation what so ever.



  7. #107
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    I believe she is Catholic, and was referring to the following:


    Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength;

    Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

    But, I still don't see how this even contradicts being "saved by grace"


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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraceLikeRain View Post
    Would you mind elaborating?
    What do I elaborate on? Here it is from The Man, himself:

    And one of them, a doctor of the Law, putting him to the test, asked him, "Master, which is the great commandment in the Law?" Jesus said to him, "'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind.' This is the greatest and the first commandment. And the second is like it, 'Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.' On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 22:35-40)

    Seven years with the Jesuits gave me lots of words, but these are clear and concise.

    G.

    P.S. Who says Catholics don't know the Bible?!?!?!
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão



  9. #109
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    Jesus said that because of how teh Pharasees acted. They prided themselves on knowing the commandments, and the Bible. They did everything "right" except for one thing - they did't really "love" God. They missed out on having that intimate relationship with Him. If we abide in Him, then we can't help but to love God, and love others. It isn't by our of our own efforts, but a natural overflow of Jesus Christ living in us.


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  10. #110
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    Ephesians 2:7-9


    7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
    <>< Sorrow Looks Back. Worry Looks Around. Faith Looks Up! -- "When they try to tell you these are your Golden years, don't believe 'em.... It's rust."


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  11. #111
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    Sorry, the explanations don't wash.

    First, it was Jesus Christ, himself, who makes the statement. Paul has his place, contradicting Jesus is acting above his pay grade.

    Nor does the context support the excuse that this was a limited statement. It wasn't. It was clear, concise, and carefully delivered.

    Put another way, if this is what Jesus said then this is what he meant to say. Reading the plain words is all we need to do.

    I quoted you the Word of the Lord. Anything else is just commentary.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão



  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guilherme View Post
    Sorry, the explanations don't wash.

    G.
    neither do yours LOL.
    I give up!



  13. #113
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    So G. the Catholic church does not recognize grace then, correct?

    And if the criteria is Christ's word alone with all else being commentary doesn't that expose a small bit of the Catholic practices?

    Just sayin'


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  14. #114
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    Guilherme, in the Bible Belt I know, catholics are the black sheep of christians.
    Never mind that they were the first of the faithful and still today the keepers of the original faith's flame.
    Everyone else are take offs from it, which doesn't keep each one from believing they are the one and only truly God guided.



  15. #115
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    I have met several people like Guillerme. They have lots of 'religious' knowledge, can discuss and quote from the Bible, have studied doctrine, the law, scripture. But that knowledge is all in their head-none of it is in their heart. It is the heart knowledge that makes one a Christian (follower of Christ).
    Last edited by mishmash; Dec. 29, 2012 at 12:44 AM. Reason: spelling


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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by mishmash View Post
    I have met several people like Guillerme. They have lots of 'religious' knowledge, can discuss and quote from the Bible, have studied doctrine, the law, scripture. But that knowledge is all in their head-none of it is in their heart. It is the heart knowledge that makes one a Christian (follower of Christ).
    I don't know you. You don't know me. I also, however, know that Gospel bit about casting stones. Pitch way.

    Certainly Grace is part of Catholic doctrine. It has been so since Peter got the Keys. But that is only half of the equation. The other half is the person using that Grace. Not only for them self but also for the benefit of others.

    Paul gives a reason for his statement (it's an attempt to "damp" people engaging in "charitable competition"). Jesus address this in Mathew 6:3 where he tells us that when we give alms (and, by extension, perform any act of charity) we do it in secret and "not let you left hand know what your right hand is doing." He also, in that same chapter, cautions against public displays of piety and praying with too many words. It's an excellent summary of "KISS Principle Christianity."

    Finally, Jesus asks "how can you say you love God, who you cannot see, when you don't love your neighbor who you can see?" That question overhangs all of these discussions.

    The first of the Two Great Commandments takes care of Grace and the relationship with God. The Second applies the First in our relationships with our neighbors.

    Being one of the local "black sheep" I don't expect to change any minds of those who follow a different road. This discussion has gone on since Luther nailed his theses to the Wittenburg Cathedral door. He was wrong in many of his assumptions, but not all. In this one, however, he was catastrophically wrong.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão


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  17. #117
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    Okay I am officially lost!
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.


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  18. #118
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    First of all, yes those were Jesus' words, but Matthew wrote them. We are told that the Bible is God breathed, and needs no addition.

    I am still not seeing how Christ's commandment goes against Grace. We are to love our God, and love others. Both come naturally, when we are abiding in Christ.

    If Jesus Himself said that He could do nothing apart from His father, then who am I to try?

    People without a good understanding of grace,have a fear of it. They use the excuse that too much grace will lead to more sinning, and less works,when it is really quite the opposite. The Bible tells us that the law came to increase sin - not to take it away. Jesus was, and still is the only solution to sin. By saying that we have anything to do with that, really cheapens what Christ did on the cross.

    If you want to see a fired up Christian, you will want to find a grace filled, Jesus powered one. That is when you will see incredible works.

    Remember that tree that God told Adam not to eat from? The Tree of Knowledge of GOOD and Evil. Yes, that's right - you can be "doing good things" but if it's from your flesh, and not God powered, then guess what? Its still from the same tree! The Tree of life = Grace = Jesus. The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil = The law/right verses wrong.

    Remember the Pharisees? They could quote the Bible better then anyone, and always upheld the laws. But they totally missed the boat. They were still eating from the wrong tree.

    The first Christians were Mesianic Jews, not Catholics.


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  19. #119
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    Forgive my ignorance, But please define GRACE as it is used in this context.
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



  20. #120
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    Grace-you do nothing to earn your way into heaven. It is a free gift for believing Christ is the Savior.

    Grace-works don't count.

    Grace-candlelighting does not get you to heaven

    Grace-prayers after you die do not get you to heaven

    Grace-indulgences do not get you to heaven

    Grace vs. Works-The eternal divide between Catholics and Protestants.


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