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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by SendenHorse View Post
    well they don't want a relationship. Can you not see they just DO NOT BELIEVE? its just not so simple for some to believe in God.

    How about I tell you to believe in the tooth fairy? see? to them its the same thing.
    Okay, no one is telling you you MUSt believe.....
    I have actually never met any of the so called bible thumpers.
    It was either on here or the other thread that someone said they found that most never said anything about God, it was the way they lived and were with others. I have found that to be true in my own life. In fact, I really have very few people I can talk to about it. I am enjoying these threads immensely
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.


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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sannois View Post
    Okay, no one is telling you you MUSt believe.....
    I have actually never met any of the so called bible thumpers.
    Could have fooled me.

    I think this topic is very hard for me because I used to be very very involved in bible study and church. I ended up leaving for a couple of reasons as I hurt people because of my beliefs. And I was very hurt by my so called friends...

    For me it was one of the best things I ever did. I still have a very strong faith, its just much different expression then the born again types.

    I have more questions then answers these days and thats ok. Its not about knowing everything after all.... And its a LOT MORE FUN and intersting for me. I am a scientist and I guess I just outgrew the sermons. they ended up being too limiting and boring.


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  3. #63
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    SendenHorse I have a friend who is an ordained minister who eventually became agnostic. She is fascinating. There is no telling where someones path may go.

    And you are right, it is incomprehensible to me (cant speak for anyone else) that there is a god, and certainly not one in the context the bible puts it in.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.


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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by eventerchick517 View Post
    That summer I was at an event at the Kentucky Horse Park, I was out walking cross-country. It was probably 6:45ish, still early enough for there to be a bit of morning haze. I was walking down a hill towards fence four, I paused for a moment and looked down at the rolling green hills, misty morning sun, and I just knew. The emotion washed over me and seemed to fill me. God is real, He is good, and He is my Savior.
    I have that same feeling all the time, but I don't attribute it to God. Tonight, after I was finished with all the chores, I was standing out in the pasture next to the run-in shed leaning on my pitchfork watching the full moon rise over the trees and the stars appear in the sky. I felt joy and wonder and amazement over the enormity and beauty of the universe around me. But for me, it does not naturally follow that there is a God who is responsible. Is it possible? Sure. That's why I refer to myself as an agnostic rather than an atheist. But it isn't necessary.


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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoSuchPerson View Post
    I have that same feeling all the time, but I don't attribute it to God. Tonight, after I was finished with all the chores, I was standing out in the pasture next to the run-in shed leaning on my pitchfork watching the full moon rise over the trees and the stars appear in the sky. I felt joy and wonder and amazement over the enormity and beauty of the universe around me. But for me, it does not naturally follow that there is a God who is responsible. Is it possible? Sure. That's why I refer to myself as an agnostic rather than an atheist. But it isn't necessary.
    very good point. It depends on how you look at it.

    I happen to believe in God but in a much more subtle and neuanced way then many people. Not everything is caused by God or needs to be attributed to God to be enjoyed. Sometimes a good moment is just that-- a good moment.



  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoSuchPerson View Post
    I have that same feeling all the time, but I don't attribute it to God. Tonight, after I was finished with all the chores, I was standing out in the pasture next to the run-in shed leaning on my pitchfork watching the full moon rise over the trees and the stars appear in the sky. I felt joy and wonder and amazement over the enormity and beauty of the universe around me. But for me, it does not naturally follow that there is a God who is responsible. Is it possible? Sure. That's why I refer to myself as an agnostic rather than an atheist. But it isn't necessary.
    Yes! Exactly.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.



  7. #67
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    Originally Posted by mishmash

    The people who are posting as agnostics, atheists, sceptics, all mention religion. As someone else said-it is not a religion, it is a relationship.

    Originally Posted by SendenHorse

    well they don't want a relationship. Can you not see they just DO NOT BELIEVE? its just not so simple for some to believe in God.

    How about I tell you to believe in the tooth fairy? see? to them its the same thing.



    I consider myself agnostic (only because I can't rule out the possibility that one or more gods exist, any more than I can definitely say that one does exist). Mishmash I understand what you are saying, and maybe I would want a relationship, but how does one have a relationship with something imaginary? Do you have a relationship with the Tooth Fairy? I wonder if there is something hard-wired in some people that they are able to believe, and just as hard-wired in others that they are unable to believe? I find myself unable to make that leap of faith (pun intended) to believe in a God. Is there an afterlife? I don't know, it would be nice if there were. Can a person have had past lives? I don't know, sometimes I think yes. Do some people believe because they have made a choice to believe?

    I am more like NoSuchPerson, and I do get that same feeling, like when you see something breathtakingly beautiful, or you look at the pure love in your animal's eyes, but I never attribute it to a god either. For me there doesn't have to a be a reason, or a maker. It just is.


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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kato View Post
    Originally Posted by mishmash

    The people who are posting as agnostics, atheists, sceptics, all mention religion. As someone else said-it is not a religion, it is a relationship.

    Originally Posted by SendenHorse

    well they don't want a relationship. Can you not see they just DO NOT BELIEVE? its just not so simple for some to believe in God.

    How about I tell you to believe in the tooth fairy? see? to them its the same thing.



    I consider myself agnostic (only because I can't rule out the possibility that one or more gods exist, any more than I can definitely say that one does exist). Mishmash I understand what you are saying, and maybe I would want a relationship, but how does one have a relationship with something imaginary? Do you have a relationship with the Tooth Fairy? I wonder if there is something hard-wired in some people that they are able to believe, and just as hard-wired in others that they are unable to believe? I find myself unable to make that leap of faith (pun intended) to believe in a God. Is there an afterlife? I don't know, it would be nice if there were. Can a person have had past lives? I don't know, sometimes I think yes. Do some people believe because they have made a choice to believe?

    I am more like NoSuchPerson, and I do get that same feeling, like when you see something breathtakingly beautiful, or you look at the pure love in your animal's eyes, but I never attribute it to a god either. For me there doesn't have to a be a reason, or a maker. It just is.
    There is some info on the other thread that talks about just that, hardwiring in the brain. It is very interesting but a lot of people got upset about it so be prepared. I love science, myself!
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.


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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by mishmash View Post
    In todays world, it can be very hard to hear the quiet voice of God-you must be able to listen. Sometime, be still, be by yourself, and just quietly ask God to speak to your heart, and make His presence known in your life. He will!
    No, no "He" doesn't

    Quote Originally Posted by mishmash View Post
    And to the poster who talked about the emotion she would feels ometimes in church when holidays were near-the emotion people are speaking of when coming to know God is not that-it is NOTHING like that.
    That was me and all I can say is how absolutely arrogant of you to presume that you have any idea of what I felt. Let me tell you, you don't.


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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kato View Post
    Originally Posted by mishmash

    The people who are posting as agnostics, atheists, sceptics, all mention religion. As someone else said-it is not a religion, it is a relationship.

    Originally Posted by SendenHorse

    well they don't want a relationship. Can you not see they just DO NOT BELIEVE? its just not so simple for some to believe in God.

    How about I tell you to believe in the tooth fairy? see? to them its the same thing.



    I consider myself agnostic (only because I can't rule out the possibility that one or more gods exist, any more than I can definitely say that one does exist). Mishmash I understand what you are saying, and maybe I would want a relationship, but how does one have a relationship with something imaginary? Do you have a relationship with the Tooth Fairy? I wonder if there is something hard-wired in some people that they are able to believe, and just as hard-wired in others that they are unable to believe? I find myself unable to make that leap of faith (pun intended) to believe in a God. Is there an afterlife? I don't know, it would be nice if there were. Can a person have had past lives? I don't know, sometimes I think yes. Do some people believe because they have made a choice to believe?

    I am more like NoSuchPerson, and I do get that same feeling, like when you see something breathtakingly beautiful, or you look at the pure love in your animal's eyes, but I never attribute it to a god either. For me there doesn't have to a be a reason, or a maker. It just is.
    We have here some awesome, beyond beautiful sunrises and sunsets.
    Pictures don't even start to show how they look in person, they do take your breath away for the few minutes they last:

    http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...-20-071694.jpg

    You know, knowing they are moisture and dust in the air, reflecting the rays of the rising or setting sun, doesn't detract any at all from the feeling you get watching the splendorous sky.

    I can see why some may take those feelings and find all kinds of meaning in them, they can be overwhelming.
    Especially those that don't know why that happens, as humans didn't know for millennia.
    The idea of something bigger than we are could have grown from times as those.


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  11. #71
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    Bluey, that is geeorgeeous!!!!

    nature is *astonishing*
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.


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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by EqTrainer View Post
    Bluey, that is geeorgeeous!!!!

    nature is *astonishing*
    I know! Just makes you want to praise God for his creation!


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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    I know! Just makes you want to praise God for his creation!

    Thats cool if it does. I just feel fortunate to be seeing the beauty.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.


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  14. #74
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    Lovely pictures Bluey! I guess I will need to go check out that other thread. I know that some folks are getting their noses a little out of joint about this discussion, but at least this thread has been very civil and I appreciate it!


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  15. #75
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    Larksmom and I are of the same age range and so have some of the same experiences.
    I was brought up by parents of great faith and we attended church every Sunday plus vacation bible school. I really did not enjoy church until we moved to a small town, attended a smaller church than in the prior town. The old preacher was a Baptist he**-fire and brimstone sort, the new preacher was not. It was there I was finding some peace in religion.
    Then we moved to a new town. Loads of cliques and I did not fit into any of them.
    The cliques continued into church and I chose to stop attending because of that. In the meantime the first grandchild in our family dies of leukemia at age 4. Resulting in loads of depression, grieving and anger in the family - alot for a 14 year old to deal with. Over the next several decades others died, some young, others just really kind people, all of horrible diseases with much suffereing and I began to curse God for allowing such to happen.
    And I drifted about doing what "I" thought was right and ignoring God. Well it wasn't always pretty, althought there were times when it was ok. But overall - my batting average was well below .500.
    About 14 years ago I started getting what I called little thumps on the head. Nothing specific, just what about God? These thumps continued, nope I was never good with hints. Till I finally went to my knees and asked for His forgiveness and asked that He come into my life.
    It hasn't been all roses as I have not been really good about making time for Him. BUT my life has improved many of my decisions are better, especially if I pray or think of Him first. It is a day2day life and sometimes minute2minute.

    The people who are so vocal about their religion and church are often Christians by name only or even just trying to put up a "good front".
    The Christians who help me the most are those who strive to maintain a relationship with God/Jesus and walk as they talk. If you are interested in learning more, these are the ones to speak and spend time with.

    Some of the best bible study ever, especially for me, is available for free on Billy Graham's radio station 106.9 the Light. You can listen live or at your leisure at their website.
    "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
    Courtesy my cousin Tim


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  16. #76
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    Well, I guess my answer to all of this is to just ask God to make himself known to you-if he isn't real, nothing will happen, right?
    And yes, I have also looked at a beautiful sunset, wondered at the amazing universe we live in. Been filled with joy and happiness at holding my newborn child-BUT it is not the same as knowing God. If you don't believe, you cannot understand.
    And the way to attract people to Christ, is to show them what a difference He can make in their lives. Preaching, teaching, forcing the Bible down anyones throat does not work. Living the kind of life that shows the love of God, does.


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  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by mishmash View Post
    Well, I guess my answer to all of this is to just ask God to make himself known to you-if he isn't real, nothing will happen, right?
    And yes, I have also looked at a beautiful sunset, wondered at the amazing universe we live in. Been filled with joy and happiness at holding my newborn child-BUT it is not the same as knowing God. If you don't believe, you cannot understand.
    And the way to attract people to Christ, is to show them what a difference He can make in their lives. Preaching, teaching, forcing the Bible down anyones throat does not work. Living the kind of life that shows the love of God, does.
    BUT, that only works if someone is wired to be a believer.
    We know more and more now that some humans just don't seem to be made that way.

    We really can't expect a color blind person to now see all colors just by wishing it so and having them try harder.

    Someone not wired for religious rapture will have to use self deception to believe, or be dishonest about it to fit with the group that demands it.

    For that change to really happen, you need a miracle.


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  18. #78
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    I am sorry but I am again Strongly disagreeing..
    Wired to be a believer? Just another way to explain away something people are not comfortable if they do not believe.
    Science is all well and good but lets look at it in terms of how many times Science has decided that something is good for you, then 6 months later it will kill you then a year later, well ooops Nope we were wrong, its okay.. Rinse and repeat. You know what I mean, Too many things to list. Coffee and the rest of the endless list.
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.


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  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sannois View Post
    I am sorry but I am again Strongly disagreeing..
    Wired to be a believer? Just another way to explain away something people are not comfortable if they do not believe.
    Science is all well and good but lets look at it in terms of how many times Science has decided that something is good for you, then 6 months later it will kill you then a year later, well ooops Nope we were wrong, its okay.. Rinse and repeat. You know what I mean, Too many things to list. Coffee and the rest of the endless list.
    Science is not like you are talking about there, sorry.

    Do you deny color blind people, if they don't fit what you know, if you are not one?

    Many are talking about how they feel so right in their faith, there is no questioning that.

    Why do you think others may not feel just as right in who they are, not to feel anything but puzzled at those that can believe in all that religions want you to believe?

    There are enough studies now to confirm there is a clear difference when we study how brains work, between those that consider themselves deeply religious and those that are clearly indifferent to faith, just as we learned why some are color blind and can't see the whole spectrum of light most humans see.

    I think those findings should not surprise anyone?
    We have known, since the first heretics were tortured to repent and burned at stake, that people are different when it comes to believing or not.
    The studies just confirms it.


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  20. #80
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    Personally, I don't think it has anything to do with being *wired* one way or the other. It's something you either have faith in or you don't...I believe it's a choice. Attributing it to wiring...which is beyond anyone's control...gives an explanation that doesn't have to confront that it is a choice. A person can blame their wiring.

    I have always believed and can't imagine NOT believing...can't walk in those shoes to know what that feels like. I can't imagine being so alone thru life, thru the suffering and thru death. For me all of that is a peaceful journey. Sure I have to deal with things, but I am never alone with the struggle. I mean truly NEVER alone...I can feel the presence of God in my life.

    I think the changes in social morals in the last 4 decades has solidified my beliefs even more strongly. The changes have made me think about things like sex outside of marriage, abortions, what charity really means, etc., and I have found that my decisions on what those issues mean to me are even more *strict*, if that word can be used. I felt I had to decide, on the merits of each topic, what I supported and what I didn't and, most importantly, WHY I feel the way I do.

    I don't go around talking about it except with my friends who feel the same way. People who don't agree consider it having *religion rammed down my throat* if I speak of any of this with them so I don't and am content to let them be. Find your own way. One of us is right but we won't know who until we're dead.

    So my *conversion* if you will from a believer to a BELIEVER was cause by the social and political issues that have confronted me over the years. These issues have helped me hone my belief system to what it is now.


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