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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by SendenHorse View Post
    A better value for the money re: shows.
    Streamline paperwork to get new horses registered/AAs signed up for shows.
    As stated many times on this forum and the Breeding forum, if USEF and USDF weren't so flippin' OBSTINATE about this, they would be using a one-horse, one-number system, and that number would be used no matter what type of competition the horse showed in. It would have to be issued by USEF, but all organizations overseen by USEF - including USDF/USHJA/USEA - would accept the number, with no requirement for additional numbers/horse registration.

    The horse would get registered ONE TIME - with USEF - and USEF would issue a sheet of bar coded decals with the horse's info on it. To enter a horse in a competition, you simply peel off the decal and stick it on the entry sheet. Show manager scans the decal, and voila, your horse's info goes into the database for that show, and is there to be uploaded to USEF/USDF/USHJA/USEA with the show results.

    This will, of course, require cooperation among the various organizations - which will never happen in my lifetime - and will also require show managers to buy a bar code reader and use appropriate software to manage their show information - which many will grouse about - but the time and money savings down the road could be enormously beneficial for competitors, show managers, and the governing bodies.

    Yeah, it's a pipedream this will ever come to fruition, but it's the season for dreaming, anyway.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eclectic Horseman View Post
    Unfortunately, all instructors are not equally effective in their communication skills. Many get defensive and seem to feel that they are being challenged when they are asked questions, and don't handle it well. That's one reason that I believe that having a really good educator in an online course can be of tremendous value. Susan Jacoma's new online dressage instruction is a good example of how this can work. She simply posts to Youtube and her Facebook page and I don't believe that the costs are prohibitive.

    Great riders/trainers are not necessarily great educators. An online course with a great educator could be much cheaper for the participants and certainly better than an in person course with an instructor with only modest communication skills.
    The world does not have to be and "either/or" world.....it can be a "both/and" world....as in have BOTH the live forum AND the on-line forum.

    It would be win-win-win for all.....in the live session, auditors get to ask the pesky questions that the trainee-judges are dying to ask but are too afraid to do so for fear of not being passed/approved.

    The auditors get legitimate questions answered and clarified to help with their training.

    The on-line version becomes a permanent record of what was taught that can be re-played on demand. (now THIS might get some hackles up....a permanent record of what a USDF trainer said.....oh, my!)

    The point is that the L-judges training is already being held.....venue scheduled....trainer engaged.....materials compiled and paid for.....And by the simple stroke of the almighty pen, a policy decision can be made to allow auditors to be fully included in the L-program discussions. No cost to USDF and plenty of benefit to members!
    Do not confuse motion and progress. A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress.
    Alfred A. Montapert



  3. #63
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    Jul. 14, 2003
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    MA
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    Quote Originally Posted by pluvinel View Post
    The world does not have to be and "either/or" world.....it can be a "both/and" world....as in have BOTH the live forum AND the on-line forum.

    It would be win-win-win for all.....in the live session, auditors get to ask the pesky questions that the trainee-judges are dying to ask but are too afraid to do so for fear of not being passed/approved.

    The auditors get legitimate questions answered and clarified to help with their training.

    The on-line version becomes a permanent record of what was taught that can be re-played on demand. (now THIS might get some hackles up....a permanent record of what a USDF trainer said.....oh, my!)

    The point is that the L-judges training is already being held.....venue scheduled....trainer engaged.....materials compiled and paid for.....And by the simple stroke of the almighty pen, a policy decision can be made to allow auditors to be fully included in the L-program discussions. No cost to USDF and plenty of benefit to members!
    I agree. But I was talking about having some sort of an online course for instruction certification candidates. To bring down the expense of travel in addition to the course. Not to mention the fact that, YES, instruction done in this manner is permanent and may have a wide audience which hopefully would lead to better education and consistency.
    "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller



  4. #64
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    Aug. 15, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    As stated many times on this forum and the Breeding forum, if USEF and USDF weren't so flippin' OBSTINATE about this, they would be using a one-horse, one-number system, and that number would be used no matter what type of competition the horse showed in.
    Yeah, it's a pipedream this will ever come to fruition, but it's the season for dreaming, anyway.
    It shouldn't be a pipe dream!!! I vaguely remember when all these horse numbers started, that for a while, USEF did accept USDF's number, or was it vice-versa? Then the number fest really started.

    Not only should it be one horse-one number, why not for riders too? If we have USEF membership, we can add-on for USDF (or USHJA or USEA or USCTA). Why does it take a rocket scientist to figure out all these darn numbers and memberships - and signing up for a show - holy moly! I've had very intelligent people call me, frustrated and confused as they attempt to fill out their first show entry. You need a trainer just to do that!



  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by poltroon View Post
    I audited a session of an "L" judge training session at one point. (About half the attendees were auditors, and we were in the back of the room behind the candidates.) I committed what apparently was a dramatic and almost unforgivable faux pas of asking a question (questions were allowed!) when I turned out not to be a candidate.
    The L Program is one of those educational programs that allows "Silent Auditors". They actually discuss that on their website - questions are not allowed except of the participants. I am not saying I agree or disagree with this concept - but the program packs a ton of information into a few weekends, and that is one way to ensure that they make it through the materials.

    I wonder if that was the L Program I went through - since I notice you were from Nor-Cal? In any of the programs that have "Participants" and "Auditors", the Participants are always placed closest to the faculty - I'm auditing the Instructor Certification program right now, and it is the same rules - we are further away, questions are limited to Participants, the focus is on the participants who have paid much more then the Auditors. But we are still getting a great educational event without spending very much.

    I will say - some of the Faculty are much better with questions then are others. Some are better teachers then others. In the L program, the questions became much more "free flowing" as we moved through the sessions and were less terrified

    I firmly believe all programs should be open to auditors - but also agree with the concept of keeping the program on track, which may mean limiting questions. Back to the FEI Conference - again, I think it should be open to all, but think it is OK that questions be limited (and perhaps front seating limited) to actual FEI TRAINERS.



  6. #66
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    Dec. 2, 2002
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    Waterford, VA USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    As stated many times on this forum and the Breeding forum, if USEF and USDF weren't so flippin' OBSTINATE about this, they would be using a one-horse, one-number system, and that number would be used no matter what type of competition the horse showed in. It would have to be issued by USEF, but all organizations overseen by USEF - including USDF/USHJA/USEA - would accept the number, with no requirement for additional numbers/horse registration.

    The horse would get registered ONE TIME - with USEF - and USEF would issue a sheet of bar coded decals with the horse's info on it. To enter a horse in a competition, you simply peel off the decal and stick it on the entry sheet. Show manager scans the decal, and voila, your horse's info goes into the database for that show, and is there to be uploaded to USEF/USDF/USHJA/USEA with the show results.

    This will, of course, require cooperation among the various organizations - which will never happen in my lifetime - and will also require show managers to buy a bar code reader and use appropriate software to manage their show information - which many will grouse about - but the time and money savings down the road could be enormously beneficial for competitors, show managers, and the governing bodies.

    Yeah, it's a pipedream this will ever come to fruition, but it's the season for dreaming, anyway.
    Again, that's really the beginning and the end of the problem! The reason this will never happen is because there are certain "special interest" groups whose business would suffer from the implementation of a one number/one horse system and they carry a lot of weight within the USHJA/USEA.

    Sad but true....
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.



  7. #67
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    Apr. 9, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticOakRanch View Post
    The L Program is one of those educational programs that allows "Silent Auditors". They actually discuss that on their website - questions are not allowed except of the participants. I am not saying I agree or disagree with this concept - but the program packs a ton of information into a few weekends, and that is one way to ensure that they make it through the materials.
    ..............
    .............
    I firmly believe all programs should be open to auditors - but also agree with the concept of keeping the program on track, which may mean limiting questions. Back to the FEI Conference - again, I think it should be open to all, but think it is OK that questions be limited (and perhaps front seating limited) to actual FEI TRAINERS.
    I teach at the graduate level at a state university (besides my day job). Graduate instruction is best done thru the "Socratic method"....eg., discussion and debate to have students demonstrate their understanding and critical thinking.

    I have sat thru 3 L-programs. A lot is taught like undergraduate teaching where the professor stands and pontificates (lectures) and the students are expected to regurgitate.

    Dressage judges will be expected to make decisions to award scores very quickly. Being able to evaluate rides can be improved thru discussion with the instructor helping "guide" the debate.

    But, the students are afraid, so they self-censor. Auditors can help this by raising points without fear of retribution.

    As far as keeping the presentations running on-time, that can easily be done thru judicious "facilitation" of the discussion. Judges judge to rules. The rules are in the rule book. Compare what the video is showing vs what is stated in the rule book.

    But I do agree that to pull this off, it takes an instructor who is someone who enjoys debate and who does not get defensive.

    So, my suggestion to AADI.....by the stroke of the pen, open up ALL educational opportunities to all members. Treat the auditors with the same respect as others who are paying. The L-program can be priced into 2 parts.....the lecture part....same for all participants and the "examination" part where for an additional fee, those who are pursuing the "judge track" then pay extra for administration of the examinations and licensures/certifications.
    Do not confuse motion and progress. A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress.
    Alfred A. Montapert



  8. #68
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    fwiw re: judges training - those folks i know who have advanced thru the ranks of judging have learned to "play the game" and shut up and do as the instructor wants - even if they dont buy into what is being taught - it is the only way to get your "pass" its political to a very high degree..... i am not sure this is the best way to teach/advance excellent judges....


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  9. #69
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    thanks DownYonder-- nice to know its not just me who is confused about this issue.



  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by pluvinel View Post
    I have sat thru 3 L-programs. A lot is taught like undergraduate teaching where the professor stands and pontificates (lectures) and the students are expected to regurgitate.

    Dressage judges will be expected to make decisions to award scores very quickly. Being able to evaluate rides can be improved thru discussion with the instructor helping "guide" the debate.

    So, my suggestion to AADI.....by the stroke of the pen, open up ALL educational opportunities to all members. Treat the auditors with the same respect as others who are paying. The L-program can be priced into 2 parts.....the lecture part....same for all participants and the "examination" part where for an additional fee, those who are pursuing the "judge track" then pay extra for administration of the examinations and licensures/certifications.
    L Program is divided into two parts - A - C is open to auditors, D sessions and Testing are for participants only - and it is a separate cost. To a point, I agree, personally, I think the judges learning program should encompass several more sessions, so there is more give and take. When I went through it, we actually had the option of doing some additional training sponsored by a couple of our CDS Chapters - including an additonal session on biomechanics, and a session that was more "Socratic", with anyone interested spending the day with a USDF L Faculty member who is a fabulous teacher. It was really just a round table discussion on the program - very useful, and relatively inexpensive.

    I think of sessions A - C as undergraduate - it is lecture to try to cram as much information into our overloaded heads as possible. Then sessions D-1 and D-2 (which are closed to auditors) are much more information sharing back and forth. I'll admit, the entire process is very intimidating, but there was much more "give and take" during those D sessions - we even had the chance to question one of the examiner's judging results - and those of us who "questioned" those results actually prevailed. There is also more "one on one" time in these sessions, where one person may judge a portion of a test, then have discussion w/ the examiners. To be honest, most of us needed those 3 sessions of information overload to have meaningful activities in the D sessions. All who went through the D sessions were capable, had great education, many were advanced trainers and riders, but judging is a whole 'nother skill set.

    I really do think of "L" as the undergraduate work. I scribed through an "r" testing - there was NO admission to the "r" education session however, that was for participants only, so I can't tell you if it became more of a open discussion or if it was more lecture. That is a whole 'nother can of worms - USEF also totes education, but you can't even audit their judge's programs!

    I don't know what the answer is, I do sincerely believe there just isn't enough time built in for a lot of Q&A. And adding time means more cost - the program is already pretty expensive - it cost more then USDF Instructor Certification, and from a money earning standpoint, I can tell you, judging school shows is not a way to get rich quick Becoming a "r" is even worse - many of them work for free, just to try to get the experience they need to qualify for "R".

    And - back to one of my AA wishes - I really wish USDF had a traveling road show, and the L program was provided in EVERY REGION at least every few years. I thought it was one of their better educational programs (after going through as auditor or participant: DSHB Judging Program, part way through Instructor Cert, and FEI Instructors).

    Perhaps an answer to the Q&A - which is something I do professionally (I also "teach" for a living, although I do one-day workshops). There is never enough time for all the questions - I stick around "after hours" for a Q&A - so we still get done "on time" and those who are really interested can stay for some one-on-one questions and discussion. I don't know if the L Faculty would be open to that suggestion (it does mean you fly home LATE after completing the day - sometimes I don't get home until midnight!). And those who just want to stick with the schedule get their info and get home on time. Maybe that is a suggestion worth exploring.



  11. #71
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    Dec. 31, 2003
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    Better awards! I was third at first level AA hoy and all I got was a flimsy stall plaque sponsored by my gmo. Thank you Neda.



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