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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    Your rights are not determined by you. There are many people in prison who have defined their rights incorrectly.
    And there are many people in cemeteries who gave up their rights.

    Semi and automatic weapons were not a part of the second ammendment at the time it was written, and your opinion does not despute that fact.
    Umm, there were no semi or automatic weapons when the Second Amendment was written. And everyone had guns. The founding fathers didn't bother to overstate or belabor the obvious by defining "arms", because they didn't have to.

    We shall see where the court side on this,
    The courts can't overturn the Second Amendment. Your argument is flawed, and your hopes are dashed.

    I hope your position is soon outdated, just like bomb shelters.
    You hope in vain. And since when are bomb shelters outdated? What do you think run under the federal buildings in DC?
    In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
    A life lived by example, done too soon.
    www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/


    7 members found this post helpful.

  2. #122
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    If the only variable we change is the gun laws... how are we supposed to feel safer around the criminals that break the laws to kill? Do we really think that if the only thing we change is the legality of guns the violent troubled people won't move to another weapon?


    5 members found this post helpful.

  3. #123
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    Dec. 16, 2012
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    33

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    Quote Originally Posted by MHM View Post
    Many other countries have similar issues, but only a fraction of the gun crimes.
    Yes, many other countries do have "similar issues" but if you'll check again, you'll find that crime rate is quite high. They just don't put it out to the general public like us. You'll also find the individual rights of the people are considerably less than in our great nation. That's because we have what's called a constitution, which brings me to the subject of the 2nd Amendment. Enough said...


    4 members found this post helpful.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    I find it too funny that the NRA and many of the members think "more guns in everyone's hands" is the answer to the mass killings. Gee no vested interest in that theory.
    "No vested interest"? You do realize that the NRA doesn't sell guns, right? And trust me - they don't make enough from membership dues (voluntary memberships, that is ) for it to be profitable to support Second Amendment rights.

    Really, I go back to my original thought, nothing means freedom like living under the scope of a sniper.
    Wow. If you're really living under the scope of a sniper, please tell me where, so I never visit.



    It is not my vision and my husband does have a gun, locked up, as does our friend down the street homicide detective.
    Oh wait; let me see if I understand - you don't want gun free zones abolished, but your husband owns a gun, and keeps it in your home?

    Hypocritial much?

    Guns in the classroom, sad to see many on this board so supportive.
    Why? You don't think our children deserve to be protected?

    Very sad, I guess that is how we arrived here.
    No - we "arrived here" by the passage of the Gun Free Schools Act of 1994, which mandated the prohibition of firearms in public schools. Prior to the passage of this act, there was not a single mass shooting in schools in America. Since the passage of that act, there have been fourteen (14) mass shootings (defined as shootings with more than three victims) in American schools.

    Do the math.
    In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
    A life lived by example, done too soon.
    www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/


    6 members found this post helpful.

  5. #125
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    Sep. 4, 2006
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    Somewhere in the Southwest
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    Your rights are not determined by you. There are many people in prison who have defined their rights incorrectly. Semi and automatic weapons were not a part of the second ammendment at the time it was written, and your opinion does not despute that fact. We shall see where the court side on this, I hope your position is soon outdated, just like bomb shelters.
    Nor was the Internet, cell phones, magazines, etc etc htht of when they wrote the 1st Amendment, and yet, we automatically assume they're protected. Tis argument holds zero water, so stop making it.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  6. #126
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    Aug. 25, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    Your rights are not determined by you. There are many people in prison who have defined their rights incorrectly. Semi and automatic weapons were not a part of the second ammendment at the time it was written, and your opinion does not despute that fact. We shall see where the court side on this, I hope your position is soon outdated, just like bomb shelters.
    Under our system of constitutional government my rights in fact do exist because I exist. They are NOT given to me by any prince of this Earth. They flow from my very existence. The Declaration of Independence talks about rights flowing from the Creator. More modern, secular writing talk about "universal human rights." In either case my rights exist because I exist.

    Are my rights absolute? Of course not!!!!!!!

    No right is absolute under our Constitution. But if the State wishes to infringe upon a right they must bear a heavy burden. They prove that the infringement is being driven by an overriding governmental interest and the infringement is not just a rational way of addressing that overriding interest it is the only practical way of doing so.

    For a very good example look at the controversy surrounding photo ID laws.

    Go back and read the Second Amendment. It clearly envisions that the "militia" discussed (which included at the time it was written both the "organized militia" and the "unorganized militia") would be available to protect the "security of a free state." This, at the time, meant a military grade weapon. The top of that tree was the Brown Bess Musket. There were multiple private persons on the frontier who owned light artillery pieces in private trading forts. Until the Great Depression and rise of organized gang violence there were NO Federal restrictions on firearm ownership. The historical record clearly indicates that "military grade weapons" WERE expected to be in the hands of the citizens who made up BOTH parts of the militia.

    Pity nobody studies history anymore.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão


    7 members found this post helpful.

  7. #127
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    Oct. 31, 2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by King's Ransom View Post
    Then where is my rocket launcher? Or anti aircraft missile launcher? Or nuclear bomb? That is, if the constitution says I can can own any weapon? Discretion is and has been applied. The question is not whether the re should be discretion, but what that discretion should be.
    Where does the Constitution say that?

    And "discretion" has not been applied; laws have been applied that prohibit the ownership of certain weapons by non-military personnel. That still exist and are rigorously enforced.
    In loving memory of Laura Jahnke.
    A life lived by example, done too soon.
    www.caringbridge.org/page/laurajahnke/


    1 members found this post helpful.

  8. #128
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    Feb. 25, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboymom View Post
    If the only variable we change is the gun laws... how are we supposed to feel safer around the criminals that break the laws to kill? Do we really think that if the only thing we change is the legality of guns the violent troubled people won't move to another weapon?
    Exactly. My fear is that if we do not figure out WTF is up with these angry folks they will keep right on, using newer, different, weapons and we (law abiding) will be defenseless. Those violent troubled people for sure don't need guns, but trying to figure out who these folks are and develop some kind of policy for addressing them is complex enough! If not guns, not so hard to make bombs, or use gas and take out lots of people! Just taking guns from folks who have done nothing wrong just leaves the rest of us very vulnerable. They can't get guns, usually, in prisons but shockingly violence is neither rare nor mild even in highly controlled environments (or those with restrictive gun laws)!! going down to 16 or so in our neck of the woods..loooks a lot like (a chilly) Christmas!


    5 members found this post helpful.

  9. #129
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    Aug. 14, 2000
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    So why doesn't anyone take my suggestion seriously? I know--at least I think I know--that every male citizen in Mississippi is considered a member of the State militia. Problem is that it isn't "well regulated." If there were the same requirement that the Swiss have that everyone be a traiined and active militia member before they could own a gun, many of the problems would be solved.

    The problem with the NRA is that they seem to forget the first (and limiting, IMO) language of the 2nd Amendment.

    You want a gun, you become a member of an official militia. AND STAY THAT WAY. Very simple solution and quite in accord with the language and intent of the founders. Even this Supreme Court couldn't kick at that.

    Hell, make everyone in the US spend a month in the summer training.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire


    2 members found this post helpful.

  10. #130
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    The majority of my young relatives are in the military and very honorably so; my young kids and my old self would gladly be in a militia if that's what we had to do. TBH everyone I know is much more likely to join the militia than give up their guns. I just can't picture that, really, a truck driving around taking guns or surrender sites or house searches I don't know... I just can't picture it. So many guns aren't registered at all by law... It's unenforceable in any effective capacity.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    So why doesn't anyone take my suggestion seriously? I know--at least I think I know--that every male citizen in Mississippi is considered a member of the State militia. Problem is that it isn't "well regulated." If there were the same requirement that the Swiss have that everyone be a traiined and active militia member before they could own a gun, many of the problems would be solved.

    The problem with the NRA is that they seem to forget the first (and limiting, IMO) language of the 2nd Amendment.

    You want a gun, you become a member of an official militia. AND STAY THAT WAY.
    Because that would require an effort and a commitment to something. People want to have guns, end of subject, no matter what the price may be. There is simply not going to be any sort of personal loss for the greater good, whether it is a loss of time, money, guns or any other resource.

    I think that, as a country, we have proven that we cannot handle the responsibility of having personal weapons and we should own up to it and voluntarily do something about it, whether its a militia, harder to purchase, ammo limits/control, something to indicate we are serious about getting a handle on this problem. But we are not, and so we wont. If 20 six and seven year olds being shot doesnt get us off our asses, nothing will
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  12. #132
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    Nov. 18, 2010
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    california
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    Quote Originally Posted by dressurpferd01 View Post
    Nor was the Internet, cell phones, magazines, etc etc htht of when they wrote the 1st Amendment, and yet, we automatically assume they're protected. Tis argument holds zero water, so stop making it.
    Big stretch there my friend between first ammendment and second. I see you are clearly upset by my argument, pushed further the government has drones, nuclear weapons and dirty bombs, all of which will get the US citizen a prison sentence. No court would ever allow that technology for the citizen, and soon the automatic and semi-automatice will be outlawed. So go hide in your bomb shelter and allow the rest of the US to enact some common sense in in the intent of the second ammendment.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  13. #133
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    Feb. 25, 2012
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    CBM-can you imagine that out here "We're from the government and we're here to take your guns". ..

    I don't see it out here either.

    But I sure find the discussion on this thread (and the earlier one) much more respectful than elsewhere, even if people disagree-must be the COTH community!


    1 members found this post helpful.

  14. #134
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    Nov. 18, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guilherme View Post
    Under our system of constitutional government my rights in fact do exist because I exist. They are NOT given to me by any prince of this Earth. They flow from my very existence. The Declaration of Independence talks about rights flowing from the Creator. More modern, secular writing talk about "universal human rights." In either case my rights exist because I exist.

    Are my rights absolute? Of course not!!!!!!!

    No right is absolute under our Constitution. But if the State wishes to infringe upon a right they must bear a heavy burden. They prove that the infringement is being driven by an overriding governmental interest and the infringement is not just a rational way of addressing that overriding interest it is the only practical way of doing so.

    For a very good example look at the controversy surrounding photo ID laws.

    Go back and read the Second Amendment. It clearly envisions that the "militia" discussed (which included at the time it was written both the "organized militia" and the "unorganized militia") would be available to protect the "security of a free state." This, at the time, meant a military grade weapon. The top of that tree was the Brown Bess Musket. There were multiple private persons on the frontier who owned light artillery pieces in private trading forts. Until the Great Depression and rise of organized gang violence there were NO Federal restrictions on firearm ownership. The historical record clearly indicates that "military grade weapons" WERE expected to be in the hands of the citizens who made up BOTH parts of the militia.

    Pity nobody studies history anymore.

    G.
    No, the pity is with the idea that we are no longer a new country and some of you are incapable of moving into the year 2012. So glad that many of the people who still believe in the literal translation of the second ammendment are elderly and not a part of the majority in 2012.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  15. #135
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    Feb. 11, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by ESG View Post


    No - we "arrived here" by the passage of the Gun Free Schools Act of 1994, which mandated the prohibition of firearms in public schools. Prior to the passage of this act, there was not a single mass shooting in schools in America. Since the passage of that act, there have been fourteen (14) mass shootings (defined as shootings with more than three victims) in American schools.

    Do the math.
    You're telling porky pies.

    1989 Stockton CA, 5 children killed, 29 wounded.

    1992 Olivehurst CA, 4 killed, 9 wounded.

    1966 Austin TX, 15 killed, 32 wounded.

    1976 Fullerton CA, 7 killed, 2 wounded

    Since 1994 there are have been nine, not fourteen, that fit your criteria.
    ----//\\----
    ---//--\\---
    --//----\\--
    -//------\\-


    3 members found this post helpful.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    So glad that many of the people who still believe in the literal translation of the second ammendment are elderly and not a part of the majority in 2012.
    Hear that dklime? ELDERLY!!!

    Nope. not so elderly. And the second amendment, any infringment of constitutional rights, is of interest to many who are yet receiving medicare!!
    But we shall see how it plays out. Gun ownership is at its highest since 92 or 93, more dems are gun owners these days as are women. Unfortunately being in 2013 as I guess we almost are, means a lot of things.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  17. #137
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    Dec. 16, 2012
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    LOL Elderly? Are you so young and naive to actually think more gun laws will stop or slow down these senseless murders? If so, I think you probably been sniffing too much fumes from your IPod. The 2nd Amendment states to firearms just as the 1st Amendment does to speech. Heck, I can't believe you would still believe in the literal transulation of the 1st Amendment, so I guess because I don't agree with you then we should change the 1st so it will make me feel better? I think not! Oh, well, go hide behind the yellow journalism which exploits the fears of people and does it behind the guise of "freedom of speech". These murdering nut cases wouldn't do that if they weren't given so much noteriety. Everyone can name the shooter but how many of the victems can you name? Sorry, your insecurity around firearms doesn't circumvent the 2nd!


    2 members found this post helpful.

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by dklime View Post
    LOL Elderly? Are you so young and naive to actually think more gun laws will stop or slow down these senseless murders? If so, I think you probably been sniffing too much fumes from your IPod. The 2nd Amendment states to firearms just as the 1st Amendment does to speech. Heck, I can't believe you would still believe in the literal transulation of the 1st Amendment, so I guess because I don't agree with you then we should change the 1st so it will make me feel better? I think not! Oh, well, go hide behind the yellow journalism which exploits the fears of people and does it behind the guise of "freedom of speech". These murdering nut cases wouldn't do that if they weren't given so much noteriety. Everyone can name the shooter but how many of the victems can you name? Sorry, your insecurity around firearms doesn't circumvent the 2nd!
    Dreaming is free....Insecurity, no we are gun owners just not believing the second ammendment allows citizens to arm at the same level as their government, and that is the difference. And that is why those that believe the second ammendment allows for whatever floats their weapons boat is the minority. Common sense has a way of getting heard in the end.


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  19. #139
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    I certainly vote for common sense.... and a very merry Christmas to everyone!!!



  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louise View Post
    Yup, and all those guns, in the hands of all those would be heroes, are the reason that the firefighters in my town had to deal with a house set on fire last year by a young man who had killed members of his own family, and are now having to deal with the deaths of two of their own, and the injury of two more, as they responded to a fire and were fired upon. We have lost two valued members of our community, two real heroes, who only wanted to help, and lost their lives as a result.

    It's time we woke up and admitted we have a gun problem in this country and something has to be done. I'm sick to death of all of these macho gun wavers who dream of being the ones to save the day when a shooter comes to their neighborhood. I'm afraid it's too late for anything to be done. I'm afraid that we waited too long and that there are too many of these things out there to ever be able to see a decrease in this kind of horrific violence. All I know is that my heart breaks for the families of those firefighters, and the people who lost their homes because the firefighters could not get to the scene because of some assh#le with a gun.

    Don't anyone DARE tell me that, if those firefighters had gone in there with guns drawn, they wouldn't be dead now.
    But the shooter was a convicted felon. Meaning that he could not legally own a gun. Meaning that he obtained his gun ILLEGALLY.

    How are gun control laws going to help with that?
    Rhythm the perfect OTTB;Spock the will-be perfect OTTB;Mia the Arab/appendix COTH giveaway


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