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  1. #1
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    Nov. 2, 2011
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    Default pelleted vs textured - for a horse ulcer prone

    My ottb has always had issues with his weight. He is a picky eater and always just looks ribby.

    He is 17 - cribs and always has nervous issues whether its head shy or spooky. I fig he prob has/had ulcer issues with racing etc.

    Right now I am out there everyday since I am self care so I have the option to monitor what he is getting food wise.

    He's on a pelleted senior feed from a local mill - I don't have access to a scale and prob should weigh it but he gets
    4 cups of BP along with 4 qt scoop of the pellets and 1/2lb amplify (30% fat) mixed all together 2x a day. As well as a small feed bucket of alfalfa cubes (about 6cups) at night

    Along with 2 flakes hay 2x a day which I am noticing he never really eats all of it.

    Usually mornings seems he eats his grain and then anticipates being turned out ignores hay.

    Anyways I wanted to see my options and I am in the middle o f talking to the feed mill.

    He does have this which I wanted to get opinions on - its not pelleted so is that a better grain for tummy issue horse? I am trying to find out the NSC level for it -they aren't really quick to reply but he did say its a LOW STARCH feed.

    Best Performance is a great source of energy for performance horses. Energy is derived from high-fat and high-fiber ingredients such as soybean oil, beet pulp, soy hulls, and alfalfa meal. Best Performance is also appropriate for horses with Cushing’s disease, heaves (COPD), and tying-up syndrome.
    Crude Protein (min) 12.00%
    Crude Fat (min) 10.00%
    Crude Fiber (max) 15.00%

    I am thinking I could try this - not have to do the beet pulp and cubes as much since it has all that and just up the feed?

    Thoughts on pelleted vs textured?

    http://www.ker.com/tmbr/brandts/products.html

    This is what he's on now which has 22% NSC
    Geriatric Horse Pellets are designed specifically to meet the changing needs of older horses.
    Crude Protein (min) 14.00%
    Crude Fat (min) 6.00%
    Crude Fiber (max) 12.00%

    Note: I did have him on TripleCrown TLC (almost like the senior) and I had to feed way to much to keep his weight up and with him not a big hay eating I didn't like pumping him with all that grain.



  2. #2
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    Feb. 1, 2012
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    1) If you suspect he may have had ulcer troubles due to racing/nervous nelly type/ etc, what have you done about it? Have you treated him with ULcerGard or GastroGard? If not, I would start there.

    2) High starch grain is not good for ulcerprone horses, which it sounds like your guy might be a good case for ulcers. I like to keep the NSC at or below 15% for my mare who is ulcerprone, and this threshhold is also the threshhold used for horses with cushings or EPSM I believe.

    3) I can't guide you on the feed you're using/doing now becuase you didn't provide any weights.
    "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."


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  3. #3
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    4) Pellets vs. textured means nothing. What is IN the grain is what matters. TC Senior is considered a "textured" grain but its beet pulp based with added oil so appears like most "sweet feeds" but its low in NSC.

    I would seriously address any ulcer concerns first, adn then adjust diet accordingly to an "ulcer friendly" diet that is low in NSC. If the horse has ulcers, it isn't going to matter WHAT you feed it, if its worrying away its calories or not eating because of an upset tummy.

    FWIW, my ulcerprone mare was treated, and to get her weight back on that she had lost because of hte ulcers, she got 1 lb soaked alfalfa cubes & 3 lbs TC Senior in the morning, and the same at night but with a cup of added flax seeds.

    Unlimited hay or as close to unlimited as I could do (I didn't have access to round bales or small hole hay nets at the time although I do now).

    And once the tummy feels better, they will eat more hay.

    Another thing to consider is that not only can anxiety cause ulcers, it can also be a symptom (like your gelding not eating hay but instead anxiously waiting to go outside). My mare will refuse any hay in her stall (even overnight) when her ulcers are flaring up.
    "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."


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  4. #4
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    Nov. 2, 2011
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    Default

    It seems like the performance they have to offer is similar to the TC senior.

    He replied and said its high in BP ration and is really ideal for horses with gastrointestinal problems. I haven't got him scoped or anything I figured he has them - anxiety, cribbing, not much eating on the hay. I am going to try the poprocks treatment to see if they help at all but I am looking to move him again and I'd hate to cause even more stress eventually and gain all the ulcers back.



  5. #5
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    Feb. 11, 2011
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    Default

    It is always eyerow raising when you hear of or see a horse really not grandly interested in hay.

    A 12% crude fiber feed is just not that high if you have a horse not getting much hay down, but I do see you are getting some extra alfalfa pellets in him....so that is good.

    So what's up with the not wanting to eat hay. Teeth issues perhaps? Cribbing vs eating? What are your thoughts/observations there? Cuz like you say poprocks just might give you the results you are looking for if he is "ulcery".

    Since you are there everyday is it possible to hang a bag of seriously nice alfalfa hay so it is there 24X7?

    My hard keeper is not the typical ulcer horse. However he is ADD/chicken brained. Always on the go and playing. Would rather be burning calories than eating them. Feed form and some seriously high calories feed got us thru the past few years. Without "rapid reload" alfalfa pelletes and BP covered in oil he just did not have much topline.

    He is 4 going on % now and hey....finally outgrowing the I gotta be on the go phase. Tho he still takes a lot of feed he is now content to hang out near the hay and munch. But he had to grow up someday (or so I kept that saying to myself anyway).


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  6. #6
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    Oct. 5, 1999
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    If he is not eating well, I would check with the vet and clear up the ulcers first. With an ulcer prone horse, it's best to have them on good quality free choice hay or pasture at all times. It's more important to have a steady stream of forage going into them to help reduce the chance of the ulcers coming back. I personally think that pellets are easier to digest than textured feed, and would lean in that direction. I'm not aware of any reseach in that matter, though. I just hate seeing oats in manure... Possibly mix the pellets with soaked alfalfa cubes? Also, if you can feed more than twice a day, it would be great. But I understand those types of limitations. My feeling is that if ulcers are a problem, clearing them up will help with the appetite and things will snowball in the right direction. Good luck and please let us know what you try and how it works!


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  7. #7
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    Jan. 16, 2002
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    Default

    Have you tried different hay to encourage him to get more forage in his system?
    Click here before you buy.



  8. #8
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    Alfalfa hay - helps buffer stomach acid.

    Ulcer treatment - why are you waiting??? If you move him and he becomes more stressed, the ulcers will become worse and harder to treat. He should be treated now, during, and after the move, for an extended period of time, until you notice he is doing better, eating well and gaining weight.

    Hindgut - I like a good probiotic like S. boullardi. Don't ignore the hindgut, it may be half or all of your problem.


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  9. #9
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    Nov. 2, 2011
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    Default

    I talked my husband into finally letting me do the poprocks -I'll order them later this week and hopefully have success with that.

    I can see if I can get access to some alfalfa hay - right now I'll stick with the bucket of cubes at night.

    Heard back from the Mill and they said that the texturized feed they offer thats low in starch is 29% NSC not sure how that is better?

    Maybe I'll look into getting the TC senior and mixing that in with a bag of the pellets I am using now.



  10. #10
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    I would call Valley Vet and get 5-7 tubes of Ulcergard to start the treatment of ulcers then follow through with the pop rocks. If you can't find alfalfa hay see if your feed store has Alfalfa chops (chopped hay in bags) or alfalfa pellets.

    Studies have shown that concentrates/grain create problems for the ulcer prone horse. If you have to feed something to keep weight on him I would look at finding beet pulp with molasses and feed it with the alfalfa chops- that is how I managed a gelding of mine who was treated for ulcers. Never had another bout once we dropped the grain. Yes, he had free choice brome(grass hay)

    Very few horses owned by "us" regular folks who ride for fun and do a little something fun with our horses, need grain, at all. The feed companies ad's are quite compelling and make us feel like we are doing the right thing for our horse.

    Good luck.



  11. #11
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    Ulcerguard is a preventative. Need a round of Gastroguard then on to a preventative or a supplement like U-Guard.


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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJRider View Post
    Ulcerguard is a preventative. Need a round of Gastroguard then on to a preventative or a supplement like U-Guard.
    Wrong. You don't need to use GastroGard. They are the same EXACT thing, in the same EXACT tube. The only thing different is the labelling instructions. UlcerGard is only labelled for prevention (i.e. 1/4 to 1/2 tube daily) and Gastro Gard is labelled for treatment (i.e. 1 tube daily).

    Giving a horse 1 tube of UlcerGard is the SAME THING as giving the horse 1 tube of GastroGard. Period.
    "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."


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  13. #13
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    Nov. 2, 2011
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    Default

    thanks! I will look at costing into the Ulcergaurd - I just need to convince my husband this will save us money in the long run rather then spending so much on feeds.

    I did find out my local feed store sells Legends Performance Pelleted 12.9% NSC 12% protein, 10% fat and 18% fiber

    I need to see the cost per bag but it has a lower NSC level then the feed I am giving now.



  14. #14
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    Sep. 11, 2011
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    I ordered pop rocks for my ulcer-prone OTTB gelding about 10 days ago and still have not received them, so order NOW! And definitely do Ulcerguard or Gastroguard until then... you don't want to just leave it be and let it get worse and worse. Good luck to you! Ulcers are a pain.
    "No hour of life is wasted that is spent in the saddle" - Winston Churchill

    Check out Central Virginia Horse Rescue



  15. #15
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    FWIW, 29% is a little on the higher side for an ulcer prone horse. I like to stay below 15%.

    Triple Crown Senior is REALLY a great feed for horses that need the calories and are ulcer prone. My mare put all of her weight back on (that she lost because of ulcers) once we diagnosed with scoping, and then got her treated with 1 tube of UlcerGard daily.

    ulcers are not a cheap fix, but they are EASY to treat. In the long run, i fyou don't treat her and its ulcers, you could have much bigger problems on your hands, like peritonitis
    "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."



  16. #16
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    What I cited was recommended by my veterinarian...so irregardless I recommend the OP to consult with their veterinarian first for foremost.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuckerForHorses View Post
    Wrong. You don't need to use GastroGard. They are the same EXACT thing, in the same EXACT tube. The only thing different is the labelling instructions. UlcerGard is only labelled for prevention (i.e. 1/4 to 1/2 tube daily) and Gastro Gard is labelled for treatment (i.e. 1 tube daily).

    Giving a horse 1 tube of UlcerGard is the SAME THING as giving the horse 1 tube of GastroGard. Period.



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJRider View Post
    Ulcerguard is a preventative. Need a round of Gastroguard then on to a preventative or a supplement like U-Guard.
    You are correct, just adding a few details. Gastrogard is only available from a veterinarian. Ulcergard, same product, same manufacturer, is the over the counter preventative. The healing/treatment dose is different than the preventative dose.

    Your vet may call in a script for the treatment box: http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.h...gas=gastrogard The vet I worked for had a pretty hefty markup on the product in the clinic. Begrudgingly, and for a fee, he would call in orders to places like Valley Vet and Smartpak.

    An owner may call in order this by individual doses in the amount they want.
    http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.h...gas=gastrogard



  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJRider View Post
    What I cited was recommended by my veterinarian...so irregardless I recommend the OP to consult with their veterinarian first for foremost.
    That's because technically if the vet is prescribing something for the TREATMENT of ulcers, they have to prescribe GastroGard. The only thing different is the way its labelled for use.

    Even when my mare had ulcers (confirmed by scope), my vet directed me to buy 28 tubes of UlcerGard and do 1 tube daily instead of GastroGard, because it was more expensive to buy through him and anywhere else, when its the exact same product. Literally...the exact same product, same amount of omeprazole per tube.
    "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by nativehiro View Post
    I did find out my local feed store sells Legends Performance Pelleted 12.9% NSC 12% protein, 10% fat and 18% fiber

    I need to see the cost per bag but it has a lower NSC level then the feed I am giving now.
    This is a FANTASTIC feed. Highly recommend it.



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJRider View Post
    Ulcerguard is a preventative. Need a round of Gastroguard then on to a preventative or a supplement like U-Guard.
    FYI, they are the same. But with gastrogard you give a full tube/day (treatment) and ulcergard a portion (preventative). I just started the whole 28 day gastrogard tamale with my new OTTB and the vet had only 21 tubes on his truck, and told me to go order Ulcergard and give 1 whole tube daily since it was exactly the same thing.



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