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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan. 3, 2003
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    Monroe, WA
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    983

    Default Performance Horse Focus for spooky, inattentive 3 year old?

    Sorry in advance for this being long. I have a 3 1/2 year old warmblood gelding that I bought as a weanling. Since I got him he has been very insecure in general. Always very focused on whether the other horses are and difficult to handle when away from his herd, to the point he would go through fences if separated from a pasture-mate. He was also very dangerous to lead - as he would get very visibly nervous, snorting, not wanting to go forward, and prone to spooking and bolting in hand - spooking into me if I happened to be in the way. But despite all that, he's very sweet and easy to handle when he is calm and focused.

    I more or less didn't do much with him except occasional handling and left him turned out with a buddy most of the time for the first few years. When he turned 3 last June, I had taken some time off from working and decided to start him myself. For the most part, I've been pleasantly surprised at how easy he was to start. He seems to have plenty of trust in me and introducing him to tack, lunging, and riding was no big deal and caused him no stress or anxiety. He's still nervous to lead anywhere away from his safety zone without a stud chain but he does not bolt or run you over anymore. The issue continues to be maintaining his focus as he worries about where the other horses were, in addition to issues with him fixating on spots in the arena to spook at that I couldn't get him past. It was more than just a little spook, it was stopping and refusing to go forward, or going forward extremely tense and inverted and then inevitably bolting away. Despite this issue, he's been easy to train and progressed to nice walk/trot/canter, leg yields, etc. But our ability to work is limited by his lack of focus and his refusal to go near portions of the arena. Over the summer I hauled him to another arena to see how that went, as expected he was beyond tense, calling endlessly to other horses, and I completely lost my "whoa" as he wasn't paying any attention to me under saddle - I had to keep turning him into the wall to stop him. I was able to ride him but he never relaxed, even after an hour long walk around the property.

    Fast forward a few months and the issue wasn't getting better at home, so I made the decision to board him out at a large facility for a couple of months, to completely get him away from his buddies in hopes we could eventually get some focused work done. He was nervous in the stall at first, calling and kicking, but that has stopped. He paced in his turnout for the first couple of weeks, but that seems to have stopped also. So far I seem to be the only boarder that rides at night after work, which means we usually ride by myself (which is fine, because he has never really had other horses in the arena when he is ridden and I think that would cause its own set of issues). That part is going well - I can take him out of his stall, tack him up, take him into the arena and work him, and there is no stress about where the other horses are, and generally I have much more of his attention than I did at home and am making much faster progress. But, like at home he has chosen an area of the arena to fixate on (the spot where you enter the arena) and no matter what I do, I cannot get him to go safely past that spot under saddle. There are sliding doors to the entry, which are a little difficult to close so they are usually left open, but I have tried closing them anyway and either way I get the same result. He walks in and out of the entry no problem. He will stand there all day relaxed without concern, but as soon as he is asked to go past it in any gait, it's extremely scary. It seems more like evasive spooking to get out of work, except he seems genuinely scared.

    We always start out lunging in side reins and he's not the type to do a lot of bucking or running around - it is focused work both directions with lots of transitions. We will work our way up and down the arena and work in front of this gate both directions at all gaits on the lungeline - he will start out spooking and usually get to where he is just a bit tense as he passes it. But as soon as I get on, we go back to square one. He is worse approaching it from one direction vs. another, one way I can eventually get him to go past it very tensely at a trot, the other way I can barely convince him to walk past it.

    The first couple of weeks I have been just avoiding the spot in favor of being able to accomplish anything in my ride, and it is a large arena so I can avoid it. But the other night I was getting frustrated by this and spent the entire ride working on trying to get him to go past it without much progress. When he gets nervous he is also VERY strong and my arms, especially my left one, are very sore. He does sometimes get to the point of being naughty to avoid going where he doesn't want to go (balking, kicking out at my leg), but for the most part he is very willing and compliant when he is not in his spooky spot.

    At a loss I ordered the 7-day money-back guarantee portion of Focus by Performance Horse (can't hurt to try, right?). I've never used any type of calming supplements and don't have a lot of faith in it working, but at this point as nice as this horse is, I am having a hard time envisioning him being able to be safe at shows or in any new environment. I keep thinking the issue is one of extreme insecurity and the answer is just more and more exposure and him learning that he can trust me to keep him safe. But I am starting to feel discouraged by this issue.

    Anyone have a horse like this that can tell me he will in fact grow out of it?



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul. 24, 2008
    Posts
    955

    Default

    Have you tried circles that slowly circle toward the spooky spot?
    Dawn

    Patience and Consistency are Your Friends



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan. 3, 2003
    Location
    Monroe, WA
    Posts
    983

    Default

    Yes...that's what we do on the lunge line before I ever get on him. Once I am on him I've tried getting him to approach the spot in several different ways - slowly circling closer and closer, leg yielding towards it, straight down the wall, passing it on a diagonal. No matter what, it doesn't work. Yes, I can eventually get to where I can trot very tensely past it from one direction and the other we can go by it at a walk, but never without a lot of tension and he is poised to bolt.

    I should also add he has always had tons of turnout (24/7 until now, but still all day turnout while he is boarded), only gets grass hay (Orchard grass currently, although he is the same on Timothy), and 1 lb of LMF Super Supplement twice a day. He is not what I would call a hot horse by any means, he can actually be a bit lazy, but hugely insecure.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr. 1, 2008
    Posts
    4,536



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun. 30, 2005
    Posts
    2,185

    Default

    After my geldings passed away I leased a great little reining horse. He had been fully trained and then sat for a couple years. When I started bringing him back to work I noticed that he had some spookiness issues. Most of them were minor with the exception of being afraid of bleachers. He would turn into an idiot when we had to go past them and if people were sitting in them forget it My trainer got on him and gave him something else to worry about other than the bleachers if you know what I mean After that when I rode him I would keep him very collected and in the bridle when he would get worried about something and that seemed to change his focus. It didn't take very long and he never even looked at the bleachers anymore.

    Sorry you are dealing with this because I know how frustrating it was for me to deal with this horse.
    RIP Sucha Smooth Whiskey
    May 17,2004 - March 29, 2010
    RIP San Lena Peppy
    May 3, 1991 - March 11, 2010



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb. 11, 2011
    Posts
    1,395

    Default

    You know we have these big scary rocks at the park down the road. They get a lot of young horses. And you just can not explain to a horse the last time those rocks moved it was during the Pleistocene and ice nearly a 1/2 mile deep did the job.

    What you can do is ride the trail the 200 ft from the parking lot to the menacing,evil rocks with a seasoned trail horse in the lead , dismount and lead greenie to the rocks, park your backside on the rocks like it was your idea the whole time, and munch away on a granola bar. Sharing is a great idea too.

    The important part is not to proceed until the big scary rocks are not an issue. That may mean the "trail ride" never much goes past those stupid rocks the 1st time or 2. In a few ADD, chicken brained greenies it may take a few extra times.

    A few years ago I became the owner of Mister I am Afraid on my own Shadow. The hubby just shook his head. I gave this greenie no special consideration other than my patience and an extra year to mature. I kicked him out with the herd and let him deal with herd hierarchy. He had to learn to show respect to the matron mare or face her authority. He had to learn to wait his turn (dead last) in the door for feed at night or be punished by the older geldings. He had to learn to allow strangers (farrier and vet) work with him. He had to learn just about everything about what being a horse was and not act out in fear and high strung nerves over the slightest thing out of the ordinary. He had to learn how to become a horse and show respect to both the humans and the other horses in his life. He got to learn these life experiences right next and along with his best buddy who is more the class clown type.

    The hubby now says things like boy that horse has really come a long way. And yes he has. He still has a long way to go tho before he becomes a truly useful horse. But he is only 4 yrs old and we have all the time in the world.

    Time, alot of patience, and some basic horsemanship skills go a long way.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec. 3, 2002
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    819

    Default

    I have been the lucky owner of your horse's twin. Only difference is my horse is now older (13) and yours is right where my guy was at his worse (3-4).
    Over the years I tried all methods of training it out of him, so I'll spare you all the things that didn't work. Let me just say that training is great UNTIL they get to that point where their brain goes outta their head and you have a 1400lb. "brainless" wild child.

    What eventually did help a lot was taking him off all grain, grain products, pelleted feed, etc. But first we tried TC Low Starch for many years and there was quite an improvement, but the biggest change came when I switched to just their ration balance-TC30 supplement- 1 cup/day split into 2 feeding and mixed w/1lb. hay pellets. I think starch and larger amounts of soy affected my horse. Also I started him on plain old Magnesium and B1pills from Walmart. Again, more improvement.

    Several years back I moved him to 24/7 turnout w/ different buddies, which also helped.

    Unfortunately, besides the management changes I also think these horses just need to grow up and mature more. They are definitely wired differently and can be super sensitive in many areas. My horse is still one to be on high alert 24/7 in his pasture. He's the best watch horse you could ever want. (LOL). In the wild herd, he would've been the "sentinel" to warn the rest of the herd about danger or approaching danger.

    As the other poster said, time and patience will work in your favor. It takes a very patient owner to work with this type horse, but like you said in other areas they are usually quick learners, super smart, and willing to please as long as they're not in their scaredy cat mode. Cause it really is over-reaction to fear and insecurity.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug. 25, 2007
    Posts
    8,416

    Default

    The best medicine you can use has two components: steady work and Tincture of Time.*

    I'm not a fan of "better equine training through chemistry" if that better training can be achieved without it. "Calming medications" are a particular "bugaboo" of mine as they induce a false sense of security in both horse and rider. This is particularly true of long term usage. If the drug (and these things ARE drugs) is used as a short-term "bridge" to get over a difficulty then maybe they are not so bad.

    I'm bringing on a coming four year gelding and he's sometimes a ditz. He's not got a mean bone in his body but everything in the world is new to him and he'll spook at things I consider stupid. For example he "teleported" yesterday after being spooked by a kid on a slide. There is a play area near our arena with slide about 30 feet from the fence. A kid came down the slide with a puppy in her lap hooting and hollering. The horse said, "MY GOD...WHAT'S THAT!!!!!!!!!!!" as he moved sideways. It took 15 min. before we could go in that corner again and I needed a ground coach to help out. But we did and he finally settled. And that ended the lesson.

    And, no, we didn't move the slide, nor shall we.

    Working a young horse means you are going to have moments like this. Some will have more than others. Get yourself and deep seat and stay in the center. In a couple of years things will be much better.

    G.


    *The most difficult of all equine medications to use effectively.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov. 17, 2008
    Posts
    609

    Default

    I highly recommend Focus by Performance Equine....along with a Magnesium supplement such as Mag Restore or Quiessence-you will need to do a loading dose-especially if your boy is mag deficient...and he will need to be on it a few weeks possibly before seeing any difference...but give it enough time, and you will have a different horse!give the focus everyday, and double or even triple the dose of mag restore or Quiessence .....also an ulcer supplement may help too if -since it sounds like he's a nervous/worrier type....Succeed, Ritetrac, or even SmartGut Pellets or UGuard Pellets or even Finish Lines u7 gastric aid

    I'd also stuff his ears with ear plugs when riding....as far as his feed...what is he eating/how much? Something low starch/sugar is probably a better bet for a horse like this, and as much turnout as possible....maybe even living out 24/7

    He would probably also really benefit from getting monthly shots of Depo or Medroxyprogesterone IM -it really helps mellow them out, and take that edge off of them, and it seems to work particularly well on the herd bound ones....Mare Magic which is raspberry leaves also helps quiet them down...and yes you can give it to geldings!



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb. 11, 2011
    Posts
    1,395

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marla 100 View Post
    I have been the lucky owner of your horse's twin. Only difference is my horse is now older (13) and yours is right where my guy was at his worse (3-4).
    Over the years I tried all methods of training it out of him, so I'll spare you all the things that didn't work. Let me just say that training is great UNTIL they get to that point where their brain goes outta their head and you have a 1400lb. "brainless" wild child.

    What eventually did help a lot was taking him off all grain, grain products, pelleted feed, etc. But first we tried TC Low Starch for many years and there was quite an improvement, but the biggest change came when I switched to just their ration balance-TC30 supplement- 1 cup/day split into 2 feeding and mixed w/1lb. hay pellets. I think starch and larger amounts of soy affected my horse. Also I started him on plain old Magnesium and B1pills from Walmart. Again, more improvement.

    Several years back I moved him to 24/7 turnout w/ different buddies, which also helped.

    Unfortunately, besides the management changes I also think these horses just need to grow up and mature more. They are definitely wired differently and can be super sensitive in many areas. My horse is still one to be on high alert 24/7 in his pasture. He's the best watch horse you could ever want. (LOL). In the wild herd, he would've been the "sentinel" to warn the rest of the herd about danger or approaching danger.

    As the other poster said, time and patience will work in your favor. It takes a very patient owner to work with this type horse, but like you said in other areas they are usually quick learners, super smart, and willing to please as long as they're not in their scaredy cat mode. Cause it really is over-reaction to fear and insecurity.
    I have had some success with B1 too. Both horses that it worked on were horses that came out of bad situations and not great care. Once on good feed they were tighter than tight and would freak at some point. B1 helped. Tho their personality was the same,the edge was less edgy.

    It did nothing for the other 10-12 horses I have tried it on tho.

    It is cheap and worth a shot tho.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar. 8, 2004
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Posts
    19,592

    Default

    Can you try a week of gastrogard or the equivalent as a test?



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug. 12, 2003
    Location
    canada
    Posts
    1,262

    Default

    I hate to say it but some just are who they are.
    I had one.
    Easy to start at 3. Never bucked, ran off or otherwise did anything 'naughty'. Could walk-trot-canter easily without any fear on my part after 30 days under saddle. He has some time off as a late three year old to grow. Then, at about 4 the spooking started. Unlike your horse, sometimes he could pass the area/object many times before he spooked at at. Sometimese it was hard to get past it, sometimes it was downright impossible to get him to go into a certain corner. Jumping was very tough. Any fill or gate or even plain rails sometimes were very difficult to ride. I finally threw in the towel and turned him out for another 6 months hoping for some improvement after he'd had some time to grow.
    I enlisted the help of a proffesional. We rode the horse a LOT thinking it was a training issue and that he needed more work to focus. Nothing worked. For the amount of consistent, good riding the horse was getting there was no improvement. He was broke to the nines but the spook never went away.


    I perservered. I wanted the horse to be a hunter even though flowers looked like death to him. I spent thousands of dollars on trainers and horse shows and left preetty much every one in tears when he stopped out a the yellow flowers or the pink ones despite working SO hard on this horse. Tried the jumpers which went marginally better but still every show was hit or miss whether he would spook into another horse in the warmup or have three stops at spooky fences.
    The worst part was that he was so nice. When he was going well he always had people asking about him. He was a beautiful mover and when he wasn't spooking could jump well and put in a good round.
    Decided to cut my losses and sell the horse when he was 8. Sent him to a very talented pro. They tried everything; supplements, magnessium, making him less fit and fatter. That very talented pro could win classes on him but no one could get him around otherwise.
    Finally sold him as a dressage horse for no money and he was doing fourth level the first month because we had schooled the horse so much. Basically riding him like a dressage horse, preferable in a double bridle, was the only way to 'manage' the spook. Any less of a ride and you just never knew when he would be going quietly along and suddenly drop his shoulder and wheel away from something. Only a pro ride for the dressage people as well.
    It was hearbreaking. I had thought this was going to be the nice show horse I finally got to have. I paid a lot of money for him (for me at the time) as a fancy two year old and had never put so much time or money into a horse. It was the fact that he was so nice that kept me trying when I should have quit. It was always 'when we fix the spook he is going to be an unreal eq horse' and on and on.
    Not what you want to hear but some horses are just like that. I wish I had sold that horse as a pretty, nice moving three year old and saved my money and tears.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar. 9, 2006
    Posts
    1,162

    Default

    My Welsh/TB pony was a little like this when I got him - inattentive, spooky, would spook on me, hot, hot.. and he was 5. I took him off all grain and he can absolutely not have alfalfa hay. I also give a mag supplement and that I think has helped.

    I've done tons of ground work with him b/c his issues are worse on the ground. He's very easy undersaddle, but can have a massive spook in him.

    I ask for his attention the minute I see him drifting. I basically made it so I was too annoying up there for him not to pay attention. When he'd flick his ear toward me, I rewarded with a carrot piece. Many rides that is just about all I did. Happy to say now he almost always has an ear on me from the get go.

    It does take lots of patience and maybe he will start to grow out of it as he gets older.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar. 25, 2010
    Posts
    1,135

    Default

    The first thing I would do is dump the LMF. Around my barn we call it "Light my Fire". The super supplement makes lots of horses hot. Just try feeding a grass hay pellet with a scoop of vitamins in it if you think the horse needs more calories, you can add a cup of flax seed or rice bran to that also to add a bit of fat. I am at an arab barn and contrary to popular opinion, if you feeed them correctly they are not hot at all. At least not the ones here.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan. 3, 2003
    Location
    Monroe, WA
    Posts
    983

    Default

    Thanks for your replies and different perspectives. Winter, I hope that my boy isn't like yours because I plan to keep him, but I do hope to show him eventually.

    I really don't think this is a feeding issue. He gets a very small amount of grain for his size (pushing 17h and growing) really so he just doesn't feel left out when the other horses get fed, and he was the same when he was getting no grain. He gets no alfalfa and lots of turnout. He is not a hot horse really, he doesn't run around much for a baby and can be a bit lazy under saddle, although he's a lot more in front of my leg now than he used to be, I would say that except for the spooking issue he is finally developing a work ethic which is nice. Keep in mind, he's only 3 1/2, so some of your suggestions like trotting small circles or really collecting him are beyond his capacity right now. And as I mentioned, he will stand in the scary spot just fine - it is the going past it that is the issue.

    I also don't think at this point that ulcers are the culprit, as first of all this is not new behavior for him but rather how he has been since a weanling, and also because he has none of the other classic ulcer signs- no behavior issues under saddle, no grumpiness, no girthiness.



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar. 8, 2004
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Posts
    19,592

    Default

    Weanlings are notorious for having ulcers. Often being reactive and spooky are the only symptoms. If nothing else, you can cross one cause off the list.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec. 21, 2008
    Location
    Longing to be where I once was.....
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    2,188

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Guilherme View Post
    The best medicine you can use has two components: steady work and Tincture of Time.*

    I'm not a fan of "better equine training through chemistry" if that better training can be achieved without it. "Calming medications" are a particular "bugaboo" of mine as they induce a false sense of security in both horse and rider. This is particularly true of long term usage. If the drug (and these things ARE drugs) is used as a short-term "bridge" to get over a difficulty then maybe they are not so bad.

    I'm bringing on a coming four year gelding and he's sometimes a ditz. He's not got a mean bone in his body but everything in the world is new to him and he'll spook at things I consider stupid. For example he "teleported" yesterday after being spooked by a kid on a slide. There is a play area near our arena with slide about 30 feet from the fence. A kid came down the slide with a puppy in her lap hooting and hollering. The horse said, "MY GOD...WHAT'S THAT!!!!!!!!!!!" as he moved sideways. It took 15 min. before we could go in that corner again and I needed a ground coach to help out. But we did and he finally settled. And that ended the lesson.

    And, no, we didn't move the slide, nor shall we.

    Working a young horse means you are going to have moments like this. Some will have more than others. Get yourself and deep seat and stay in the center. In a couple of years things will be much better.

    G.


    *The most difficult of all equine medications to use effectively.

    I agree with this 100%.

    Want to add that he is only 3 1/2 years old and what you are asking him to do may be a whole lot more than he is mentally ready to do. Many big warm blood types mature slowly both mentally and physically. They may look and act ready but when you push to fast through the training and don't get the walk well established before you move to trot and likewise to the canter you usually end up with confidence issues somewhere along the way.

    Slow down and work on what he does well and get that down before you move on to something else. Yes it takes a lot of time but it is better than having to start all over again years from now or putting him on unneeded calming drugs.



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan. 3, 2003
    Location
    Monroe, WA
    Posts
    983

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    I thought I'd post an update. I did get the 7 day trial of the Focus because I'm curious as to whether it will make a difference to lack of confidence in general, but I'm going to wait until after the holidays to make sure I have plenty of time to work with him. Today however, I was able to work through the issue and am pretty happy about it. He was extra nervous today because I came during the day and all the other horses were out, no one was in the barn, and he was calling to his friends. I thought this was probably going to be a lunging-only day, and initially he was so freaked out by the gate he was stopping and trying to run the other direction. I was pretty dismayed, because it seemed like the issue was getting worse each time. So I decided to try bribery - figuring I'll see if I can make some good associations with the scary spot but figuring I'd probably also end up creating a new issue if it worked - being he wanted to stop in that place for a treat. But I tried it any way - first on the lunge line making him walk by the spot and stop in it. Then treat, let him stand there and eat it, repeated a few times each direction. After that, I was able to lunge him at a trot and canter without spooking, only a little tense, so I was ready to see if it would work under saddle, figuring it still probably wouldn't given I could always get him over the issue on a lungeline but it would spring back up under saddle. But I took the same approach - walk to spot, stop, treat. Repeated it several times approaching the spot from multiple directions. And then I put him to work. And after a couple of circles at a trot, pointed him down the long side his easy direction and trotted right on past that gate with only a little hesitation. Repeated a few times, and then braved an approach at a trot from the other direction. He did it! And not once did he offer to stop on his own in hopes of getting a treat.

    So we'll see if the lesson works, but I was thrilled that I was able to have a pretty normal ride using the whole arena today. Progress! I'll take what I can get at this point, but I am really crossing my fingers that he starts to get more confident in general as he matures. And who knows, maybe the Focus will work. It can't hurt to try.



  19. #19

    Default

    When I was training my young three year old stallion, I was also concerned about attention issues...especially when other horses were being turned out, trucks coming down the driveway...you name it. These interruptions were an added stress. One technique I used was to put in place an "obstacle course". It consisted of trotting poles strategically placed in the arena. In some cases I would have three in a row, in others just one. But they were placed in such a way that within a few moments my dear horse had to pay attention to what we were doing or he would trip over a pole. So he might get a little interested in what was going on but then have to pay attention as we took the next corner or did a circle or he was going to hit his feet on a pole. I would not try this with a horse that bolts or is out of control, because it could be very dangerous to race around an arena with poles. I also would not do this with a horse that is just not very athletic because he could fall if he stumbles over a pole. But if he is just looking around and you don't want to badger him or worry about whether he will take that look to the next level, let him get interested in the terrain. He will begin watching where he is going and forget about what he was focusing on for a moment. All you need is a moment to redirect him.

    good luck.



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan. 16, 2002
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    West Coast of Michigan
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    36,321

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    I can't believe people are recommending 5 and 6 different herbs, supplements and drugs for a goofy young 3 year old!

    How about a little more time?
    Click here before you buy.


    2 members found this post helpful.

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