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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isabeau Z Solace View Post

    PE digs up video of both 'this and that' being done.

    You decide it's still not 'good enough' AND if we don't agree with you it's because we are ignorant and unwilling to learn.
    PE needs to dig up better vids. The woman was impressive. She's got a helluva seat, but it's not competition and the calf looked tired.

    The guy on the black horse was really bad -- hanging on the horse's mouth and muscling it around. Anyone who'd put that video up as a cool example of cutting is really off base. Or ignorant, to use your word.

    I'd put the first one in the category of the naked guy jumping -- interesting anomaly. The second one I'd put in the trash.
    Last edited by mp; Dec. 21, 2012 at 12:21 PM.
    __________________________
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  2. #162
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    Just throwing this out there: Whenever there's a discussion of western versus english, someone posts a video of Lendon Grey on Seldom Seen doing a dressage freestyle pas de deux with a western REINER. It is always argued that reining is the western "equivalent" of dressage.* So...WTF is "western dressage" as we are now discussing it?

    *To which I generally reply that most reiners are "finished" horses at age 3-4 years old, and while the patterns change, the movements remain the same, ergo reining doesn't have the progression of dressage. Is that going to be the difference with "western dressage?" What is the progression going to be? If a GP western dressage horse is going to do spins and stops instead of canter pirouettes and piaffe, rollbacks instead of turns on the haunches, then is western dressage going to become Reining? This is getting VERY circular! ROFLOL!!!


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  3. #163
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    Exactly!, SandyM. And I'm a western pleasure rider who will participate in wd at our breed shows because I like riding patterns and fine tuning my riding.

    BUT, it IS NOT DRESSAGE!

    I, too, wonder what GP in western will be. If it turns out like you theorize, I'll bet the reining people will get their reins in a wad! LOL


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  4. #164
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    How you train at home (bareback, around barrels, cutting cows, on trails, over jumps, and anything in between) is not bound by USEF or USDF. The world is your oyster! But the shows don't have to respect your training creativity. The premise of the shows is: we're going to clamp down on many variables (geometry of the arena, dearth of obstacles in the arena, location of letters, test, etc.) and see who wins.

    You may want to remember that there are many of us showing dressage with plenty of experience in other realms. I'm going to use my favorite example: myself. I rode for 8 years on a mounted drill team (flags and all) that performed at rodeos and charity events. I've barrel raced, pole bended, and contested a gymkhana or two in my day, all whilst my noble steed was clad in a western saddle. My two dressage-only horses I take out of the arena every day it's light enough and the weather's not awful to contest some hills and dales. I even occasionally talk myself into being very super extra brave and pop over a 6" crossrail or two, or jump a 18" log out on the trail.

    I don't expect to do any of those things at a dressage show. Because none of those things are dressage. I'm the same rider (schooling dressage for >`10 years) no matter what I'm doing, but rodeos aren't dressage. Jumping isn't dressage. Pole bending, barrel racing, and flag bearing: likewise.


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  5. #165
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    FWIW, many years ago I used to board at a barn where the eventing/dressage trainer shared space with a western trainer. They used to "spot" for each other: The western guy confirming that in her canter pirouettes, her horse maintained the gait, and that when he did spins, his horses planted a foot and spun! LOL!!

    Totally unrelated, but hella funny: That western trainer was also a judge. He judged a halter class once, and later it turned out that his choice as Grand Champion stallion was cryptorchid. From then on, he CHECKED!!! Manually!!


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  6. #166
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    It is usEf's sandbox, and they write the rules for disciplines like western/morgan/etc and NATIONAL level tests. For international disciples, the FEI writes the rules. (usDf only writes the rules for national level freestyles/eq tests/etc).
    I.D.E.A. yoda



  7. #167
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    Reining is to building a bridle horse as USDF-defined dressage competition is to building a haute ecole horse...the one is a judgeable, somewhat artificial, competition subset of the other.


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  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by ezduzit View Post
    I don't think it's contempt, PE. Let's face it, western pleasure riders DO NOT HAVE the riding skill that dressage riders have...not the awareness of their body movements and/or their horse's response. I think it's fair to say that.

    Western riders who participate in speed and action don't have it either. It's point and shoot.

    I don't have any contempt for other types of western riding...but it will never be classical dressage. never.

    Editing to add: my horse does a lovely collected canter otherwise known as a lope. But not because he's been patiently brought up the levels for more and more collection. He's BUILT to be collected. He couldn't be uncollected if he tried his mightiest. It's just not the same.
    But they want to learn how to apply the training scale to their horses...and isn't that what USDF is all about...education? Western riding is different, no doubt. If you sit correctly in a western saddle you will sit correctly in a dressage saddle. In my area of California, western dressage classes are offered at the schooling dressage shows, I have been at these shows. I have seen lovely forward moving horses, no peanut rollers, no behind the vertical. These riders are eager to learn more about how to maintain gait quality, tempo etc...and to keep their horses' careers intact. USDF will do its best to draw a line in the sand. Dressage should welcome all breeds and more in the sport, the better off the sport will be...diversity is a good thing, and lets face it, we are all a product of our experience with horses and we never stop learning so perhaps, just perhaps, we could all learn something from the western discipline. Who knows? This may be the beginning of a beautiful friendship..... ;-)



  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy M View Post
    And do those classic trainers advocate Mr. B-H's methods?
    Perhaps you didn't catch that B-H has withdrawn from the WDAA because of a difference in vision about what WD is? He continues with Cowboy Dressage, where harmony is higher placed in value than errors in such dressage basics as straightness.

    WDAA recently gave some guidelines as to what they require of a Western Dressage horse. The rules require all the cornerstones of dressage- straightness, pure gaits, balance, relaxation, willingness to go forward, correct execution of the movements. The tests, which go to 2nd level now, follow the classical training progression. The "Western" part per a recently published memo for instructors adds qualities that a good working horse should exhibit - calmness, willingness, pure gaits (again), rideability, usefulness. The suggested training approach is up to the individual but the insistence on light contact is going to favor those who train for a mobile jaw in a style closer to Phillipe Karl.

    Perhaps one way of thinking about it is dressage for working ranch horses in the same sense there is dressage for driving and event horses. Driving horses aren't required to be ridden. They're tested in their working tack. A ranch horse should be tested in it's working tack.



  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by longride1 View Post
    Perhaps you didn't catch that B-H has withdrawn from the WDAA because of a difference in vision about what WD is? He continues with Cowboy Dressage, where harmony is higher placed in value than errors in such dressage basics as straightness.

    WDAA recently gave some guidelines as to what they require of a Western Dressage horse. The rules require all the cornerstones of dressage- straightness, pure gaits, balance, relaxation, willingness to go forward, correct execution of the movements. The tests, which go to 2nd level now, follow the classical training progression. The "Western" part per a recently published memo for instructors adds qualities that a good working horse should exhibit - calmness, willingness, pure gaits (again), rideability, usefulness. The suggested training approach is up to the individual but the insistence on light contact is going to favor those who train for a mobile jaw in a style closer to Phillipe Karl.

    Perhaps one way of thinking about it is dressage for working ranch horses in the same sense there is dressage for driving and event horses. Driving horses aren't required to be ridden. They're tested in their working tack. A ranch horse should be tested in it's working tack.
    That he has withdrawn from WDAA only underscores that there seems to be no agreement on exactly what IS western dressage. We have USDF (under the umbrella of USEF) defining "regular "dressage, bu there seem to be multiple "western dressage" organizations.

    As for the guidelines, color me confused. Exactly what are these pure gaits? jog and lope? If the horses are going to do working and collected gaits a la regular dressage horses, if the rules are going to be redefined to require a snaffle at lower levels, that the horses must be calm, willing, etc., then yes, they will be doing "dressage" - and the only difference will be the saddle???? It sound like the only other difference than the saddle will be riding one-handed with a curb at the higher levels? At 2nd level??

    Not that it is particularly relevant to your statement, but most Combined Driving horses are indeed ridden to improve their driven dressage. But they are, of course, as you say, judged/tested in harness.
    Last edited by Sandy M; Dec. 21, 2012 at 01:09 PM.


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  11. #171
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    Just wanted to add that I don't have any hostility toward the IDEA of "western dressage." I just feel that it is quite a muddle now and that nothing so far formulated and set forth seems to conform to anything that most of us would term "dressage," but is, indeed, merely pattern riding. Perhaps this might develop into something useful, but as it currently stands, it really does seem to be an effort just go give WP people something else to do - and something that probably would not require the constant style changes and big-money tack that WP does.


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  12. #172
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    Sandy they DO have ranch horse classes and such where you can wear less than expensive garb and tack.

    They are like a pattern.

    I think they even have this in open shows so you dont have to have a certain breed.

    Andy shows have that competative equitation where you can use any saddle and do a fast trail type course.

    Im guessing people hope this will be as "flexible" as all of that, but honestly what good is dressage without the training?
    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
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  13. #173
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    The definitions of lope and jog are always going to be a problem. In some parts of the West, they simply mean trot and canter and that's the way they are used in WDAA. For many other people jog and lope mean a specific speed, a speed that has become defined by the jog in WP classes. WDAA is specific that overly slow gaits will be penalized. WDAA does have a line in the rules saying the lope should be slower than the canter. There were requests to take that out. I'd like to think they got lost in the rush to get the rules out before the national meeting.



  14. #174
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    Here's my question:
    How many of these western dressage riders are going to be willing to spend the $300-500 to show at a recognized dressage show for the weekend?

    Because that's the ONLY level affected by the USDF's stance.

    Schooling shows are more than welcome to host western/bareback/backwards/topless dressage classes (though that last one made me shudder a little). Schooling shows are NOT sanctioned by the USDF and are NOT required to follow the USDF rule book. They are run by the local GMOs; they are the ones who set the rules.
    Some might follow the USDF rule book by the letter....
    Most will give some leeway- they allow kids to show the same horse, for example.

    As for it's being the USDF's job to educate everyone... that only applies to members. At some point we must educate ourselves. Read a book, audit a clinic, or for goodness sake, take some lessons! If you want to learn, than take the initiative and learn.

    If you want to show, that take the initiative and show at an appropriate level (after learning a little about your discipline of choice).
    Attending a recognized dressage show has nothing to do with cutting cattle- bareback or otherwise, jumping picnic tables NH style, riding a reining pattern, or any of the other myriad distractions tossed out on this thread. When one spends their hard earned money at a recognized show, they are (usually) serious about the sport. If you are not serious why not just go to a (cheaper) schooling show? If you don't want to do dressage, as defined by the USDF, why waste your time and money at a recognized Dressage show?

    And please, enough with the whole "dressage people hate stock horses". Unless you have been to a recognized show where a judge as told you to 'GTFO and take your little QH with you', I'm going to have to toss the sour grapes flag. Dressage judges dislike (in my experience) poorly ridden and/or poorly trained horses not reaching their potential under their current rider. It has nothing to do with the breed, but rather the rider.

    Sincerely,
    A QH riding Dressage supporter


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  15. #175
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    I went to the American Morgan Horse Assoc. website who has published rules and guidelines for wd. After looking over the *tests* I was confused as to what they were talking about regarding the different gaits. It's going to take a *dressage horse* to do this.

    Meaning just because you SAY a horse should overstep at the free walk doesn't mean it CAN. Western horses are not built to do this; dressage horses are.
    http://westerndressageassociation.or...a77f38b1_e.pdf



  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by mp View Post
    PE needs to dig up better vids. The woman was impressive. She's got a helluva seat, but it's not competition and the calf looked tired.

    The guy on the black horse was really bad -- hanging on the horse's mouth and muscling it around. Anyone who'd put that video up as a cool example of cutting is really off base. Or ignorant, to use your word.

    I'd put the first one in the category of the naked guy jumping -- interesting anomaly. The second one I'd put in the trash.
    I do believe I agreed with you about the guy on the black horse. Ignorant wasn't my word, I was accused of it by someone in the thread. I forget who -the dog pile is so high now. As for the calf looking tired -I'm sure that's why that woman stayed on her horse.

    Thanks for your constructive contributions to this discussion.

    ETA: You know what's really funny? I had never heard of Western Dressage until someone TD snob started a pearl-clutching thread about the unmitigated gall these upstarts had in proposing it. So that OP did them a favor by bringing it to our attention. Similarly I think I was introduced to bareback dressage.

    So IMO some of you nay neighers should just keep clutching those pearls and calling people ignorant, and comparing horses and goats when discussing Western Dressage. I don't think you might be getting the result you are hoping for.

    Just saying



    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).



  17. #177
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    Dressage or not, western or not...I think we need to stop beating this poor horse! BTW, I don't own any pearls...pearls are tears.


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  18. #178
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    [QUOTE=paulaedwina;6731044]As we say in Trinidad, "Gyuhl, wuh we go do?" He can canter, so I imagine he can lope. Eh. You know me, I'm game to try anything. I'm learning the barrel patterns properly now so I can compete W/T next year with the CCWC (Carroll County Western Circuit). If I find the testicles I might try for speed, but right now I'm sticking with W/T.

    For your entertainment -Draft horse barrel racing! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-iufS5aWGQ note the rider at 3:02 is doing it in an English saddle!

    ]Paula[/QUOTE

    Oh, ouch! Couldn't bear to watch that all the way through. That may be fooling around some barrels, but that sure as hell isn't barrel racing in the competitive sense. Poor horsies--all of their riders were absolutely terrible!

    Sorry, but you didn't chalk up any points by posting a video like this.


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  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulaedwina View Post
    As far as I'm concerned bits, bridles, saddles, reins, are just tools we use to ride. They are not the ride.

    Paula
    No,

    Dressage legal Bits and Bridles and Saddles are the equipment listed in the RULES of Dressage by the International Federation. It is the legal equipment just like there is legal hockey equipment, legal skiing equipment, legal football equipment and legal cars in Nascar.

    You couldn't play Football in Hockey pads just like you can't ride a training test in a shanked bit with the Western Dressage 'legal' 3.5" port or no bit. It is against the rules.
    Proud scar wearing member of the Bold, Banned and Bitchen clique



  20. #180
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    Oh, ouch! Couldn't bear to watch that all the way through. That may be fooling around some barrels, but that sure as hell isn't barrel racing in the competitive sense. Poor horsies--all of their riders were absolutely terrible!

    Sorry, but you didn't chalk up any points by posting a video like this.


    Oh for goodness sake, unclench just a little bit. They were having fun! Here's another one for you. Just having FUN -remember fun? This woman is doing it bareback. It's a twofer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNtSLktnBeQ


    And dilligaff2, they ARE TOOLS they are not the ride. You can play football in hockey pads -your skills don't dry up just because you're not wearing football pads, and yes you can very much ride a test in no bit. Please Google Uta Graf and bitless dressage.

    Now you're talking about whether you're allowed to ride a test bitless -no you are not. But that's a MAY not, not a CANNOT right? Surely you understand that this was what I meant by saying that bits, bridles, and saddles are tools. Faced with none of them you should still be able to ride your horse. Your skills do not, or should not, reside in your tools. You should still be able to catch a football even if your pads say "hockey".

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).


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