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  1. #141
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    Mar. 25, 2011
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    I do; people like Mystic Oak Ranch, like Isabeau, like Candace Clemmons (the woman riding the I1 bareback). There are a few others.

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).



  2. #142
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    May. 5, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pocket Pony View Post
    I think the trainwreck topic du jour has changed from rollkur to western dressage.
    Why not? We have already had natural horsemanship mentioned and nudity has been shared.

    What is left? Oh wait, news that Linda Parelli will now ride Totilas in GP competition using a Parelli bareback pad and the cradle bridle with a curb bit. Because WAZ said she could.

    That about cover it?
    Sheilah


    4 members found this post helpful.

  3. #143
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    Oct. 30, 2009
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    Hey, I'm a good bareback rider too. I grew up riding bareback and could probably kick some butt showing that way too. Doesn't make me a better "dressage" rider. PE try riding in a dressage saddle without stirrups. I think you will be surprised how much more difficult it is than bareback.

    The problem I see is if the powers who be start allowing things like "western dressage" (which, for the record, I personally think is silly) then the field is open and why not bareback dressage? Or Roman riding dressage? Or bitless dressage? Competitive dressage is a sport all it's own. The problem is people try to keep calling it classical with all the "correctness" and tradition that incompasses. That boat has sailed. In dressage with ribbons the training can be a means to an end regardless of how it's done. That seven minutes in the ring is what is judged just as in any riding competition. If a horse trained in draw reins or rollkur shows the best, that's what gets pinned as long as the rules are followed.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  4. #144
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    Apr. 9, 2008
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    Who says "Western" and "Dressage" can't co-exist?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrYOQ52U3LQ

    Watch at 3:56 when they swap horses......
    Do not confuse motion and progress. A rocking horse keeps moving but does not make any progress.
    Alfred A. Montapert


    1 members found this post helpful.

  5. #145
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    Mar. 25, 2011
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    RE: The problem I see is if the powers who be start allowing things like "western dressage" (which, for the record, I personally think is silly) then the field is open and why not bareback dressage? Or Roman riding dressage? Or bitless dressage?

    This is the slippery slope argument, like in the gay marriage debate. If we let gays marry, then things like polygamy might happen. I say, why not? How consenting adults want to formulate their relationships and families is up to them. Family is not static -it's dynamic. The family of 100 years ago barely resembles the family of today.

    Similarly (granted I have no idea what Roman riding is), why not have all kinds of dressage. Surely dressage competition today has little resemblance to dressage competition 100 years ago.

    BTW Uta Graf -bitless dressage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5XUq56P_I0

    As far as I'm concerned bits, bridles, saddles, reins, are just tools we use to ride. They are not the ride. And for the poster who suggested stirrupless riding -BTDT and it has its uses, but it is not the same as bareback and you get completely different experiences bareback.

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).


    1 members found this post helpful.

  6. #146
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    Sep. 11, 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by katarine View Post
    In summary:

    Some posters don't know what Dressage is, but they want to change it.
    Some posters don't know what conformation has to do with ability.
    Some posters want to do 'it' their way, although they don't really know what 'it' is, not on any surface but paper or pixel.

    Some posters are really, really tired of playing this particular reindeer game, and will now cease attempting to educate those who just will not see.

    Y'all have fun.
    yes, exactly.

    I think its funny to get comments about how something needs to be changed/added to when the person doesn't show at all to start with. The USDF/FEI/USEF does not need to, nor should, create subdivisions to suit every whim. There are many diciplines, more then ever before!

    As a person who knows/sees regularly bad western riding I feel strongly there is a need for western dressage AS LONG AS its snaffle bit based and teaches the same contact as found in the training scale/back to front. Otherwise having a bareback/bridleless accommodations is just silly- perhaps extreme backlash against some less then stellar riding (RK)??? Just host you own schooling shows then, problem solved!!! If a rider needs accommodations for physical reasons that should definitely be allowed IMHO.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  7. #147
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    Aug. 15, 2010
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    My point is simply - our sandbox is big enough to share with people in western saddles. If some of the Western riders want to improve their riding and training knowledge, and want a show venue where they get FEEDBACK (as far as I know, dressage is the only forum where that exists) from knowledgeable judges, why not? Is it hurting anyone? I don't see it as any more of an issue then Intro tests, or other lower level tests. Why not encourage more people at the lower levels, irregardless of the saddle they sit in? Especially if it makes life better for their horses?

    I totally agree, I want to see snaffle bits required - and I've let a few people who ARE involved in this movement know that needs to happen. The feedback I get is they are moving that direction (whew).

    Just to be clear - I am a "traditional" dressage rider - I have my bronze medal, working toward silver. Have been through plenty of USDF educational programs, including L Program, DSHB Judging program, and currently auditing the Instructor Certification program. I don't even own a western saddle, and the only "curbs" in my posession are weymouths - that are used on my upper level horse ONLY.

    But - I support any movement that improves training and showing opportunities for people and horses - and I see this as an opportunity to do so. There are several dressage trainers that are starting to organize traning WD training clinics - and I got a notice recently about a judging clinic (too far away for my meager travel budget).

    This movement has been stirring for years - there is a Morgan trainer who has been doing Demo rides as "cowboy dressage" for as long as I can remember. He's done many pas de deux rides with FEI riders here on the West Coast - and was at WEG one year as a demo ride. His horses do upper level work - all ridden on the seat and leg. It is actually pretty cool to watch.

    I wonder if the Jumper people put up this resistance when Hunters first came on scene - with their much smaller, less complex jump courses, and their stylized way of dressing? I know there has long been a fuss about whether lower level dressage is even dressage, and when they allowed posting at First level, OMG, the horror of it. And double bridles at 3rd level. And when we see a hunter come in and do a dressage test in a close contact saddle - is that an issue? We can share our sandbox - really, there is room for all to play.

    I guess I don't understand why we are so resistant (and say they are educating, when really they are being exclusive)? And so many who are objecting haven't shown above First level - so according so many on this board, are just dabbling in pattern classes. Dressage is all about training with the goal of improving the horse - who cares what saddle a rider uses?


    4 members found this post helpful.

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticOakRanch View Post
    My point is simply - our sandbox is big enough to share with people in western saddles. If some of the Western riders want to improve their riding and training knowledge, and want a show venue where they get FEEDBACK (as far as I know, dressage is the only forum where that exists) from knowledgeable judges, why not? Is it hurting anyone? I don't see it as any more of an issue then Intro tests, or other lower level tests. Why not encourage more people at the lower levels, irregardless of the saddle they sit in? Especially if it makes life better for their horses?

    I totally agree, I want to see snaffle bits required - and I've let a few people who ARE involved in this movement know that needs to happen. The feedback I get is they are moving that direction (whew).

    Just to be clear - I am a "traditional" dressage rider - I have my bronze medal, working toward silver. Have been through plenty of USDF educational programs, including L Program, DSHB Judging program, and currently auditing the Instructor Certification program. I don't even own a western saddle, and the only "curbs" in my posession are weymouths - that are used on my upper level horse ONLY.

    But - I support any movement that improves training and showing opportunities for people and horses - and I see this as an opportunity to do so. There are several dressage trainers that are starting to organize traning WD training clinics - and I got a notice recently about a judging clinic (too far away for my meager travel budget).

    This movement has been stirring for years - there is a Morgan trainer who has been doing Demo rides as "cowboy dressage" for as long as I can remember. He's done many pas de deux rides with FEI riders here on the West Coast - and was at WEG one year as a demo ride. His horses do upper level work - all ridden on the seat and leg. It is actually pretty cool to watch.

    I wonder if the Jumper people put up this resistance when Hunters first came on scene - with their much smaller, less complex jump courses, and their stylized way of dressing? I know there has long been a fuss about whether lower level dressage is even dressage, and when they allowed posting at First level, OMG, the horror of it. And double bridles at 3rd level. And when we see a hunter come in and do a dressage test in a close contact saddle - is that an issue? We can share our sandbox - really, there is room for all to play.

    I guess I don't understand why we are so resistant (and say they are educating, when really they are being exclusive)? And so many who are objecting haven't shown above First level - so according so many on this board, are just dabbling in pattern classes. Dressage is all about training with the goal of improving the horse - who cares what saddle a rider uses?



    Dressage is about training. My point is that dressage showing is a different thing. It is subjective and based on a 7 minute ride. And let's face it not all of what gets rewarded in about correct training.

    Other disciplines that are out there are supposed to be about the correct training of their horse too. Basic training should all be about developing the young horse mentally and physically to preform their required task. Showing is about showing the horse at his best at that task. Western horses (as any horse) should learn the basics in a balanced, stress-free manner, but there are venues already to show him at his best. Showing a dressage horse in western tack is just another way to get ribbons IMHO...... Not that's anything wrong with that if that's what you are into but it's not about better training of the western horse.


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  9. #149
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    Aug. 25, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticOakRanch View Post
    I guess I don't understand why we are so resistant (and say they are educating, when really they are being exclusive)? And so many who are objecting haven't shown above First level - so according so many on this board, are just dabbling in pattern classes. Dressage is all about training with the goal of improving the horse - who cares what saddle a rider uses?
    True enough, but it's USDF's sandbox so they get to write the rules. I don't understand why folks get so het up about a rational exclusion based upon clearly stated rules.

    If a body doesn't like the USDF rules they can voice their displeasure to the USDF Board and petition for a change. If they don't get it then maybe their best option is to move on down the road and establish their own organization with rules that suit them Endless grousing about somebody else's "shortsightedness" gets rather old.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão


    1 members found this post helpful.

  10. #150
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    Sep. 11, 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guilherme View Post
    If they don't get it then maybe their best option is to move on down the road and establish their own organization with rules that suit them Endless grousing about somebody else's "shortsightedness" gets rather old.

    G.
    yes, start their own club then and host whatever events they want.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  11. #151
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    Mar. 25, 2011
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    Pennsylvania
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    Myler Bits: The USEF Legalized Myler Bits for Dressage (2/15/2012)

    http://www.actionridertack.com/blog/...-for-dressage/

    [USEF]Rule Changes for 2011 Competition Year http://www.usef.org/_IFrames/RuleBook/Changes/2011.aspx

    [USEF] Rule Changes for 2012 Competition Year http://www.usef.org/_IFrames/RuleBook/Changes/2012.aspx

    USEF seems less brittle than some of its followers. They seem to be open to making amendments and changes all the time. Heck, how long has it been since we've had Intro A and B tests? How long has it been since posting at the trot has been allowed at these tests?

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).



  12. #152
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    Aug. 26, 1999
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    Concord, California, USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticOakRanch View Post
    My point is simply - our sandbox is big enough to share with people in western saddles. If some of the Western riders want to improve their riding and training knowledge, and want a show venue where they get FEEDBACK (as far as I know, dressage is the only forum where that exists) from knowledgeable judges, why not? Is it hurting anyone? I don't see it as any more of an issue then Intro tests, or other lower level tests. Why not encourage more people at the lower levels, irregardless of the saddle they sit in? Especially if it makes life better for their horses?

    I totally agree, I want to see snaffle bits required - and I've let a few people who ARE involved in this movement know that needs to happen. The feedback I get is they are moving that direction (whew).
    This movement has been stirring for years - there is a Morgan trainer who has been doing Demo rides as "cowboy dressage" for as long as I can remember. He's done many pas de deux rides with FEI riders here on the West Coast - and was at WEG one year as a demo ride. His horses do upper level work - all ridden on the seat and leg. It is actually pretty cool to watch.
    From some of the remarks made - not by people on this board - I don't know that they DO want to "improve." It seems more like they want a different venue to do what they already do - not changes, ergo, curb bits at lower level "Western Dressage."

    As for the Morgan exhibition rider you mention - I do question his "dressage." It's disappeared from his website, but he used to sell (and presumably use) a device to tie the horse's head to its tail to teach it to "yield to the bit." Dressage? Ummm....NO. And he's the "poster-boy" for at least one Western Dressage organization. Sorry, not buying it.

    Training along the normal dressage lines, using a snaffle, riding in a western saddle? Fine. What they're doing now - not dressage, except the lowest most literal sense of the word, i.e., "training." But it isn't Dressage training.



  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guilherme View Post
    True enough, but it's USDF's sandbox so they get to write the rules. I don't understand why folks get so het up about a rational exclusion based upon clearly stated rules.

    G.
    Well, technically, the rule box belongs to USEF, not USDF

    And Sandy M, I've seen enough dressage trainers out there using some pretty sad training techniques and tools too - draw reins, harsh bits, etc - I know you've posted this specific example many times, but I can tell you that many of the trainers who are joining this "cause" are classic dressage trainers who don't use gadgets.

    I've judged several schooling shows with these classes now, and the riders are reading their tests and riding better the 2nd and 3rd time through. Kudos to them - at least they are trying.

    OK, headed out to ride before the rain starts. Riding in my dessage saddle, double bridle, probably going to work on tempi changes and pirouette canter today


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  14. #154
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    I thought about it in these terms this morning.

    For years, people complained about the money, the outfits, and the judging at AQHA shows. The winning WP horses, for example, were soaked in silver and not a pleasure to watch, much less ride. They'd evolved into a four beating, beaten-looking, fashion statement.

    Finally, The Stock Horse Associations (and those like it) emerged as a venue for more 'real-looking' or authentic looking riders, on horses that actually could trot, nose out a little, go somewhere, and look like a pleasure to ride. And those shows look like they are doing well, growing, and I think that's fantastic.

    You can sit on the sidelines and talk about what you want to have others do for you, or you can do it. The choice is yours.


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  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticOakRanch View Post
    And Sandy M, I've seen enough dressage trainers out there using some pretty sad training techniques and tools too - draw reins, harsh bits, etc - I know you've posted this specific example many times, but I can tell you that many of the trainers who are joining this "cause" are classic dressage trainers who don't use gadgets.
    And do those classic trainers advocate Mr. B-H's methods? Yet he is the model for western dressage. I've seen his exhibition and it is NOT dressage. Spade bit, both hands on the reins, double whips? It is pattern or trick riding. Just because some "regular" dressage trainers may use gimmicks and/or borderline abusive crank and spank methods doesn't excuse Mr. B-H. And if he's the model for Western Dressage.......Although I will say this: Obviously, the proponents of "Western Dressage" don't even agree with one another. IF...big IF...this continues under the USEF/USDF umbrella, I don't see ANY point to it until they reach a basic agreement on rules. And one would hope that does not include curb bits at "training level" with both hands on the reins NOR the typical WP type gait (Because it does seem to be the WP people, not the reiners, cutters or working cow horse people, who seem to be the ones wanting to "do dressage."



  16. #156
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    Mystic, I wont lie, it is because of you and your postings and the fact that I value your opinion as much as I do that I have changed quite a bit in my view point on this subject from "Ah heeeelllll no." to "Hmm good point, hmmm."

    I hope that you too will see something in what is being said about the training issues.

    Since we borrowed our training scale from another country entirely, I think it is fair to ask around what would be a good way to "mold" this - bridge the gap so to speak between Western Riding and Dressage.

    Instead of for or against I think we could get to a point where we discuss just HOW to inject the good training into the WD participant. How to keep the clinics in the hands of people who are flexible enough to watch a rider in a western saddle but good enough to educate on actual dressage.

    Im glad you are encouraging them to require a snaffle as I think that is the first step to educating the hand. You will also "see" more as a judge if they have to see saw their hands to keep things in order. With a spade they can put the horse in "check" before even entering the class. You can do that with any bit Im sure but I have ridden horses who were spaded to death and they hide from it.

    There is nothing wrong with people feeling a healthy amount of territorialism IMO. It means they have pride in what they do and pride in their sport. Rules shouldnt change about something this old overnight and without a lot of thought and agreement.

    Dressage wants to spread out wider reaching and that is great. I think we SHOULD make some changes. But whats worked as long as it has (the training) should stay the same
    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
    http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/



  17. #157
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    Mar. 16, 2011
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    When you show, what you're being judged on is ultimately the ride you throw down in those 8 minutes. Which, I can attest, is not a perfect correlation with your training at home. I can ride like Carl Hester at home (I tell myself), and have trained my generous gelding to the GP, but that doesn't stop me from looking like an AA duffer when I stagger down the centerline. And beyond AA issues, the international ring has awarded some winners whose training isn't as humane as others.

    So why would we expect it to be the magic bullet for western riders?

    As an aside, PE: I know from several of your posts that you glory in the off-breeds. Unless your horse moves like a western horse, he'll be an off-breed there, too...


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  18. #158
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    Mar. 25, 2011
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    Another poster in another thread coined the breed Amish Warmblood! She also has a perch/standarbred

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).



  19. #159
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    paula I can almost guarantee you he wont 'lope" then anyway LOL!
    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
    http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/


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  20. #160
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    As we say in Trinidad, "Gyuhl, wuh we go do?" He can canter, so I imagine he can lope. Eh. You know me, I'm game to try anything. I'm learning the barrel patterns properly now so I can compete W/T next year with the CCWC (Carroll County Western Circuit). If I find the testicles I might try for speed, but right now I'm sticking with W/T.

    For your entertainment -Draft horse barrel racing! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-iufS5aWGQ note the rider at 3:02 is doing it in an English saddle!


    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).



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