The Chronicle of the Horse
MagazineNewsHorse SportsHorse CareCOTH StoreVoicesThe Chronicle UntackedDirectoriesMarketplaceDates & Results
 
Page 5 of 17 FirstFirst ... 3456715 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 328
  1. #81
    Join Date
    May. 5, 2006
    Posts
    2,854

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by paulaedwina View Post
    I think I understand your concern. I'm an upstart who presumes to ask -why not? How dare I ask whether I can ride a test bareback or in a bareback saddle (quotes are so cute)? What presumption! Why, I seem to be operating under the misapprehension that dressage is about training horse and rider, and not about gear. I mean a shoulder in is only a shoulder in if you're in the right tack! Dressage is only dressage if I'm doing it in a sand arena in top hat and rat catcher, in a dressage saddle, on a horse stamped "genuine dressage horse"?

    Yes, I do see your concern. People like me are corrupting influences.
    Paula, I don't think the goal was to point out how presumptuous you were. There is nothing presumptuous about asking questions. Questions are always a good thing.

    However, and this isn't meant to belittle you in any way, your questions are often at a very beginner level. And there is nothing wrong with that. There is no such thing as a silly or stupid question. But can you see how it might rankle some riders who have spent decades riding dressage to have someone who didn't know if a bareback pad was legal tack in a show make a pronouncement on what is or isn't "real dressage"?

    Dressage tack has been developed over hundreds of years to put the horse and the rider in the best position possible to do the movements. A shoulder in is a shoulder in, you're totally right about that. But riding a "correct" shoulder in is made easier by doing it in tack that was made for riding a shoulder in correctly.

    Would you want to tackle a Grand Prix jumping course riding in a western saddle? Wouldn't the horn be a little on the unpleasant side as you stretched forward as your horse took those huge jumps? Would riding a cutting horse in a forward seat English saddle make it easier or harder to stay put and go with the sudden stops and turns that a cutting horse has to make as they mirror the movements of the cow and keep it from returning to the herd?

    Tack DOES matter. Peel away assumed status symbols of a big name maker or skill of the rider. Each specialized discipline has tack that makes that discipline easier for horse and rider. Would you rather compete in a diving tournament wearing a bathing suit designed to produce as little drag as possible, or would you be okay with competing in a diving tournament in a fencing suit? Both items of clothing are for a sport, right? So what is the difference? Are the divers who compete in clothing designed for their specific sport being elitist by not wearing a fencing suit? Or are they recognizing the benefits of wearing an item of clothing that is specifically designed for their sport?

    Paula, you're a teacher, right? I think you teach college level classes? How would you feel if a freshman student walked into your class and based only on reading the course description in the catalog, told you how to define your course and it's materials? Would your reaction be different if a teaching peer who is an acknowledged expert in your field told you how to define your course and it's materials? Do you see what I am getting at here?

    If you play a game of field hockey on a basketball court, are you playing field hockey or basketball? Would changing some of the rules of field hockey to make use of the baskets at either end of the basketball court mean you are now playing "traditional" basketball?

    Respect the traditions of each discipline you dip into. There are hundreds of years worth in just about every one. Respecting those traditions doesn't mean you have been co-opted by the ruling class. You can still be a rebel (like my instructor who competes in a shadbelly that has hot pink lining and points).
    Sheilah
    Last edited by IdahoRider; Dec. 20, 2012 at 01:27 PM. Reason: Typo that changed the meaning of a sentence.


    14 members found this post helpful.

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Feb. 2, 2007
    Posts
    514

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by merrygoround View Post
    Seriously though, any time you allow a lower level competitor (Training, First) to ride in a curb, you are defeating the major principles of dressage. These horses inevitably are in a "false frame".
    Well, to be fair, they premise it by equating it to something like this:
    1) GP rider decides to ride an intro/training/first level test on their GP horse for some reason.
    2) In this world, riding in the double is okay (equivalent to a straight-up-in-the-bridle western horse)

    How would you score the rider?

    Nothing prevents someone who has a western bridle horse from schooling an intro test, but:
    1) Why would they want to?
    2) Why would someone who can make a true bridle horse decide to ride with the contact required for modern dressage testing?

    The contact on a bridle bit thing is silly...it's against the principles of the gear. If I pick up so much on my spade bit's bridle reins so that there's no drape, but no "tension" on the rein, I'm asking my horse a question already. The rein chains stop swinging, and that's part of the "pre-cue" built into the bit. This is so important that you actually have to choose the right reins to balance the bit and the stride the horse has, so to ignore it is pretty dang bold IMHO.

    Even asking a bridle horse to look like a dressage horse contact-wise to please some judge seems like a big fat lie, in principle. I've seen one of the leaders of the movement do just that, however...post a bunch of videos of her GP horse where she's swapped from a snaffle to a hackamore and she's riding him around on contact. That's against the tradition of the hackamore (when the branches touch the jaw, that's a cue!), but she says it's okay because "he's safe". You'd never safely MAKE a hackamore horse that way, but I guess you can fake it for marks if you want by bypassing the whole progression in the first place (ignore the part where you're teaching your students something inherently unsafe though, I guess).

    So it's not IMPOSSIBLE for an intro rider in a curb to not be flawed in their training, but it sure is likely.

    Quote Originally Posted by merrygoround View Post
    From a teaching stand point, where do we begin?
    That's a great question! This is indeed a set of competition rules and tests without a training program to back it up.

    When I school with my dressage instructor, she's not teaching anything fundamentally differently then when I take clinics with the folks who are teaching me the vaquero traditions. That's because they're both teaching HORSEMANSHIP.

    What I see coming out of WD is ignoring selective traditions and practices from both the western and dressage worlds. How on earth do they get a set of training principles to use, as a result?


    5 members found this post helpful.

  3. #83
    Join Date
    Aug. 26, 1999
    Location
    Concord, California, USA
    Posts
    8,175

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by paulaedwina View Post
    I think I understand your concern. I'm an upstart who presumes to ask -why not? How dare I ask whether I can ride a test bareback or in a bareback saddle (quotes are so cute)? What presumption! Why, I seem to be operating under the misapprehension that dressage is about training horse and rider, and not about gear. I mean a shoulder in is only a shoulder in if you're in the right tack! Dressage is only dressage if I'm doing it in a sand arena in top hat and rat catcher, in a dressage saddle, on a horse stamped "genuine dressage horse"?

    Yes, I do see your concern. People like me are corrupting influences.


    Paula
    Really? You do like to twist things, don't you? WHile my present horse is a little too hot to be riding bareback, I periodically rode my last horse bareback, and yes I could "do dressage" on him just fine riding bareback. But why would i SHOW him that way. I didn't call up the show management and say, "Oh, I don't feel like cleaning my tack and I'm comfortable bareback, so I'm just going to show that way." I didn't say, "Well, my horse does dressage fine in a halter, so I want to show him that way." You can do what you want, schooling at home, playing around. Fine. But if you choose to say, "I ride dressage and I want to show" then you follow the rules. Go ahead and agitate for changes. In that case, I think western should ditch the big saddles. Should be interesting to see someone bulldogging or calf roping bareback. While there are gifted people doing reining bareback and bridless, I don't see them asking that the rules be changed so that they can compete that way. They save that for exhibitions, and indeed, there is a Paralympian (Brueckerman?) who does or did a GP dressage exhibition bridleless. So what? She doesn't COMPETE that way.

    By the way, I wouldn't recommend a "ratcatcher." That is HUNTER turnout, although it would be permitted in lower level dressage. Generally, a STOCK is worn in dressage. And FWIW, I have competed since the 70s on Appaloosas only, first in eventing and H/J and then in dressage. I've schooled through third level and ridden higher level horses, but I don't even OWN a tophat (or a cutaway/swallowtail for that matter). My post was less about changing "gear" than about your desire to change the rules to suit they way you do things, rather than you - horrors! -conforming to the rules as they exist while you seek to change them.
    Last edited by Sandy M; Dec. 20, 2012 at 01:51 PM.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  4. #84
    Join Date
    Sep. 11, 2011
    Posts
    1,139

    Default

    Dressage to me is not just about a harmonious ride....is about bit acceptance, increasing self carriage, and making three pure gaits better. its not just about harmony to me. Not everything has to be dressage just beacuse it shows harmony. To me dressage means a rider uses the dressage theory of forward, straight, rhythm, relaxation, suppleness, contact, collection. I don't care what the horse or rider look like, but about the mindset. A dressage horse typically needs three very very pure gaits and be a back mover to have the best expression of "aliveness". The horse is stretched over the topling into the riders' hand, from "back to front". THAT is dressage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Dressage is not just walk trot canter in a a plesant way. SOOOO much more then that. Dressage is a bit like an essence to the ride, a mindset, philosophy or religion. Its the whole approach, so I disagree strongly with Paula Edwina that its simply harmony. No, its not.

    Not everything has to be dressage but my opinion is if you are at a dressage show riding a dressage test the above principles need to be maintained. No need to reinvent something. its working great as it is (besides the RK crap but thats another issue).


    5 members found this post helpful.

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Dec. 23, 2010
    Location
    Lancashire UK, formerly Region 8
    Posts
    662

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by paulaedwina View Post
    BTW I heard of another splinter group -driving dressage? Interesting. Does that give you a seizure too?

    Paula
    I really want to stay out of this thread now since it's become about something entirely different than the USDF's position vis a vis "western dressage".

    However, Paula - for someone who can so casually throw out words like 'bigotry' and 'discrimination', the statement quoted above is really quite mind-blowing. As someone who knows first-hand all about the social stigma of epilepsy, I find your remark hurtful and offensive. Please amend your post.

    For the record, Driven dressage is a phase of Combined Driving and has existed since the 70s. It's governed by the FEI and follows the same principles as ridden dressage, with no re-definitions of principles like engagement, impulsion, etc.

    I'm outta here.
    Proud COTH lurker since 2001.


    10 members found this post helpful.

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Aug. 26, 1999
    Location
    Concord, California, USA
    Posts
    8,175

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoRider View Post
    Respect the traditions of each discipline you dip into. There are hundreds of years worth in just about every one. Respecting those traditions doesn't mean you have been co-opted by the ruling class. You can still be a rebel (like my instructor who competes in a shadbelly that has hot pink lining and points).
    Sheilah
    This^

    Ah, my late eventing instructor decided she needed to extend her dressage learning, and so - back in the 80s - she trained a 17.2 Palomino Appendix QH to Grand Prix (and push-buttom GP at that - lovely horse). She also trained a hot-hot-hot TB (double line-bred Nasrullah!!!) to FEI levels, though I don't recall if he made it to grand prix. He was black. She did a PSG freestyle wearing a bright RED hunt coat (back when things like that just weren't DONE!), riding to a CW song: "I may just be a lump of coal, but I'll be a diamond some day!"


    4 members found this post helpful.

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Oct. 27, 2009
    Posts
    1,674

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by paulaedwina View Post
    It's not traditional dressage, it's western dressage. However, that is not the distinction Redmond made, s/he said it's not dressage. It take that to mean something very different to what you said in your post, Nosuchperson.

    And then someone else makes a remark about calling a goat a horse doesn't make it a horse, and I start to feel an undertone.

    Paula
    Ummmm, I know I'm a bit late to respond but if you read what I said I said it is not and I quote "TRADITIONAL DRESSAGE". You seem to be so worked up about this that you are failing to read what people have actually written. Or are you trying to argue that it is in fact traditional dressage? I'm not sure how you can possibly make that argument.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  8. #88
    Join Date
    Jul. 3, 2012
    Posts
    2,018

    Default

    "Ezduzit, if your horse won't uncollect, how would it do the mediums and extensions required for a GP test? This is the problem I have with WD as the organizations have defined the gaits, even though the description of the gaits are almost identical to how TD defines them, just using the words "jog" and "lope" instead of "trot" and "canter" seems to create a difference where there shouldn't be one. "

    Oreobob, he wouldn't do those well at all. But a canter pirouette? No problem. As long as his hock could take it. We are just starting with leg yielding (been having hock problems) and for all I can tell at this point we may not go much farther. His physical ability to do more is at question for me. If I WERE to put on my dressage saddle and snaffle bit, we would never be more than training level gaits with 2 or 3rd level frame. Would not work well.

    I love him dearly but make no mistake about what he is and what he isn't. And after watching the Morgans at their grand national show...I have to say there's a whole lot of really crummy riding out there. The horses seemed to do okay in spite of the riding. THAT to me means it ISN'T dressage. How can you have riders bumping the mouth, pumping at the lope and riding a curb with two hands and yet have a horse that merely goes thru it's paces as if the rider wasn't even there.

    My impression of classical dressage is that the rider cues and then ALLOWS the horse to move without getting in it's way. I'll go out on the limb and say that crappy riding will never get the best performance a horse is capable of.

    I suppose talking about crappy riding in the show ring is a whole nuther forum!

    btw, Morgan rule book says that there must be light contact with the western bit. Reins with a droop/drape are to be penalized.



  9. #89
    Join Date
    Oct. 9, 2000
    Location
    California
    Posts
    8,091

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by oreobob View Post

    I agree with this. I ride traditional dressage on a "non-traditional breed". He's a mustang, he wasn't bred for anything but survival. He may not be flashy, but he can get good scores (not world beating, but good) and beat the traditional breeds by being correct. Being correct did mean changing things he had learned as a WP horse, such as a stretchy circle was not just sticking his head down in a headset but to really take connection with the bit and stretch down.

    One thing I will say about WD, riding with one hand does allow you to hold your test in the other if you have trouble remembering the test. (Yes, I have seen this happen in a schooling show)
    Yay for mustangs in dressage!

    I suppose another benefit to riding one-handed is that you could hold a beer in the other! I don't think there's a specific rule against that, is there?
    My Mustang Adventures - Mac, my mustang | Annwylid D'Lite - my Cob filly

    "A horse's face always conveys clearly whether it is loved by its owner or simply used." - Anja Beran


    7 members found this post helpful.

  10. #90
    Join Date
    Jun. 13, 2001
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    6,120

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aktill View Post
    The contact on a bridle bit thing is silly...it's against the principles of the gear. If I pick up so much on my spade bit's bridle reins so that there's no drape, but no "tension" on the rein, I'm asking my horse a question already. The rein chains stop swinging....
    And this is PRECISELY why there should be NO spade/curbs allowed with two hands, or at all in w.d. Western has ALWAYS be progressive (hackamore...snaffle....with two hands, and curb/spade with one). And there is progressively LESS tension (just as there is uberstreichen in upper level horses) or dressage ridden with only the weight of the reins on a curb (snaffle dropped). The PROBLEM is that curbs have been used impropery in western too often. As a dressage judge and who actually rode western eq with the top trainers, I would like a RETURN to progressitivity in training....curbs (let alone with two hands) should NOT be allowed in w.d.

    Least we all forget, the origins of dressage used a combo of draw reins on cavesons (for lateral flexiblility/no snaffles) and a kind of spade (with a whisper of connection).
    I.D.E.A. yoda


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #91
    Join Date
    Sep. 27, 2009
    Posts
    266

    Default

    You all despise me here however, I feel that I should say this:
    dressage is about the teaching the horse rider aids in order to do movements and gaits that the horse already does on its own in the wild.
    Traditional dressage is not something unique and stand alone, TD dressage is in reality something horsewomen and horsemen around the word school their horses in. In fact, when I began to ride in the early 60's on a working cattle ranch in Montana, I was introduced to dressage, though the old cowboys did not call it that, yet I was taught the so-called dressage training pyramid.........
    Western dressage is in startup phase and as such has not clearly defined movements beyond training levels. However, WDAA rules clearly use USEF/FEI descriptions for the gaits. So I am of the opinion that USDF is wrong not to take a stance that dressage is dressage no matter the tack used. We need a coming together of our endeavours and not further seperation. JMHO



  12. #92
    Join Date
    Jul. 23, 2008
    Location
    Da UP, eh
    Posts
    763

    Default Annnd back to the OP.....

    In regaurds to what the OP actually posted...
    Good for the USDF. They answered the question we were all dickering about a year ago on the BBs:
    Will Western Dressage be shown and judged at dressage shows?

    The answer is No. And I'm fine with that. Honestly, as a dressage rider with dressage horses (yes, one was bred to be out there chasing cans and moving cattle), I don't mind one bit that the USDF recognized shows limit their entries to USDF-minded dressage enthusiasts. I don't find that my stock horse is unaccepted at recognized shows (he even rocked out his pirouettes while schooling yesterday), with scores up to the mid 70's.

    The schooling shows can continue to do whatever they would like... Though I will say that the three schooling shows that I attended last season (in two different states), there were no entries in any of the Western Dressage classes.
    I guess that means I could throw some western tack on and sweep up a few more blues, huh?


    So this whole 'them vs. us' belligerence that I'm seeing here seems to have no bearing on real life dressage shows- at any level, apparently. I don't worry about WD shows (of which I've seen none) stealing the 'regular dressage' show entries, any more than I worry about the open shows or playdays stealing riders from dressage shows.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  13. #93
    Join Date
    Mar. 25, 2011
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    5,045

    Default

    Sorry, I was away at the barn so I missed the rest of the conversation. I've been reading through and I liked this question,

    "Paula, you're a teacher, right? I think you teach college level classes? How would you feel if a freshman student walked into your class and based only on reading the course description in the catalog, told you how to define your course and it's materials? Would your reaction be different if a teaching peer who is an acknowledged expert in your field told you how to define your course and it's materials? Do you see what I am getting at here?"

    I think it's an excellent question because it speaks to our differences directly. In that scenario I'd listen to my student. He might be new, but he might have insight that would be useful to me. I teach adults who are trying to change careers to nursing, biotech, etc. They bring all kinds of experiences to the table. I have a syllabus and a set of knowledge to impart, but I do not assume that I know everything about how to deliver the information, new applications, new techniques, etc. In fact in Microbiology and public health things change all the time and there are so many times that what we teach in lecture or lab can always benefit from what's going on in a professional setting. So no, I would not be taken aback at all. I wouldn't be offended, feel like that person just couldn't have any idea because he lacked credentials.

    Great example, I have a good friend who is a super tech with an associate's degree. She has trained me on a number of assays. Can you imagine if I'd dismissed her because of her lack of credentials?

    Perhaps this explains the chafing in this thread and why I'm such an "upstart" to presume to ask questions and challenge the status quo.

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).



  14. #94
    Join Date
    Jul. 3, 2012
    Posts
    2,018

    Default

    No rule against reins in one hand, beer in the other except can't change reins when the beer hand gets cold. Also can be expensive: one for the judge, the learner judges, ringmaster, photographer, tractor guy, announcer...etc. lol


    7 members found this post helpful.

  15. #95
    Join Date
    Jul. 3, 2012
    Posts
    2,018

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dragonharte8 View Post
    You all despise me here however, I feel that I should say this:
    dressage is about the teaching the horse rider aids in order to do movements and gaits that the horse already does on its own in the wild.
    Traditional dressage is not something unique and stand alone, TD dressage is in reality something horsewomen and horsemen around the word school their horses in. In fact, when I began to ride in the early 60's on a working cattle ranch in Montana, I was introduced to dressage, though the old cowboys did not call it that, yet I was taught the so-called dressage training pyramid.........
    Western dressage is in startup phase and as such has not clearly defined movements beyond training levels. However, WDAA rules clearly use USEF/FEI descriptions for the gaits. So I am of the opinion that USDF is wrong not to take a stance that dressage is dressage no matter the tack used. We need a coming together of our endeavours and not further seperation. JMHO
    I don't know you so I can't despise you. Maybe in time... ;-) (said with a wink and a smile)



  16. #96
    Join Date
    Sep. 11, 2011
    Posts
    1,139

    Default

    I guess I have a question for PaulaEdwina-- do you actually ride dressage or are you more of a casual rider?


    7 members found this post helpful.

  17. #97
    Join Date
    Sep. 18, 2003
    Posts
    4,521

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by paulaedwina View Post

    Great example, I have a good friend who is a super tech with an associate's degree. She has trained me on a number of assays.
    That would be a great example ... if she'd never actually done an assay, only read about how to do one, but still felt qualified to give you lots of advice on how to do it.
    __________________________
    "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
    the best day in ten years,
    you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."


    7 members found this post helpful.

  18. #98
    Join Date
    Mar. 25, 2011
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    5,045

    Default

    To SendenHorse,

    A funny thing happened on the way to the forum. I posted a variation of this on UDDB but I'll try to remember it all.

    I have been riding since I was a child and thought I was a good, intermediate rider. I rode with an equitation type instructor for many years, but her horses were trained in dressage and she used that kind of training to put some pretty students out there. So her horses were not dressage horses, but knew how to use themselves, could do lateral work, etc.

    Then a couple of summers go I got up the courage (one of my students actually heard my sighing about dressage seriously -she was the captain of the school's equestrian team) and turned me on to my very first real live, straight up dressage barn.

    I got to ride with a trainer (who has since gotten her gold) at a dressage barn owned by a German (and I make that distinction intentionally) trainer, accomplished in her own right. I got to ride a PSG schoolmaster -the most athletic, balanced, sensitive, forward horse I'd have gotten on. You know what happened next right?

    I suuuuuucked. Boy, I thought I knew something, but I couldn't get this horse to trot for nothing, for WEEKS. It was like, if he could talk, he'd say, "Look hon, I don't know what you want, but let's run it alphabetically and maybe that would help. Canter? No. Okay, passage? No. Okay. Piaffe?"

    It took a long time and lot of riding (I was riding a few days a week), and getting stronger to actually get there. But when I got there it was amazing! Anyway, she wanted me to show on this schoolmaster in the following year at 1st. And she would have gotten me there for sure.

    Then I bought a horse.

    He was the first unschooled animal I ever rode, and I quickly realized how much these made horses were carrying my water.

    So all this to say;
    Put me on a made horse I can ride dressage like a mofo. But I know that I am not that good a rider. Ergo the bareback, the barrels, the pole bending, the hacking out, etc. I'm trying to become a better rider.

    ETA: On UDDB there is at least one other rider who rides at this barn and can attest to my story, but I don't know if she's on COTH as well. Just in case my little story has caused "yeah right" eye rolls.

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).



  19. #99
    Join Date
    Sep. 27, 2009
    Posts
    266

    Default

    http://westerndressageassociation.or...e-rules-tests/

    Western Dressage is being judges according to the USEF Morgan Western Dressage requirements. Check out the links.



  20. #100
    Join Date
    Oct. 13, 2006
    Posts
    3,505

    Default

    Nice story Paula!

    And it leads us to the very bottom portion.

    You can do barrels, poles, hack out and ride bareback till the cows come home and not improve your riding from a dressage standpoint.

    And this is STILL a dressage forum (well lately you never know) but it is labeled as such.

    From a dressage standpoint you would have to do the same ole boring 20 meter and inside leg to outside rein lessons as the rest of us.

    Preferably in a dressage saddle, and preferably with a good dressage instructor.

    I dont think that is too much to ask of anyone and if they want to come show dressage or even "western" dressage I think the point we are making is they shouldnt be able to go around the training.

    I can ALWAYS hack my dressage horses or play with barrels, but I pay good money to try and have a draped leg while I do it
    ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
    http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/


    7 members found this post helpful.

Similar Threads

  1. USDF/ Perfect World Dressage Challenge
    By Petstorejunkie in forum Dressage
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: Mar. 17, 2012, 12:43 AM
  2. USDF Reg 1 Clinic at Hassler Dressage
    By Debbie D in forum Dressage
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: Mar. 4, 2012, 11:50 AM
  3. Replies: 2
    Last Post: Dec. 15, 2011, 11:09 PM
  4. USDF Dressage Sport Horse Breed Show Handler
    By mitma in forum Sport Horse Breeding
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: Jun. 8, 2010, 08:28 PM
  5. Replies: 8
    Last Post: Nov. 2, 2009, 04:18 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •