[mbm]

how is frank discussion "wailing and rending garments"?

[ezduzit]

Thank you. I didn't know. And I hate peeing into the wind!

[S1969]

Why do western Folks feel the need to include themselves in a sport that is so different from their own.

Why are you so sure it is so different from their own? Personally, I think that a lot of western riders school many of the same things as dressage riders; why is it odd for them to pursue a way to be judged on them in competition?

[BaroquePony]

how is frank discussion "wailing and rending garments"?

Washing dirty breeches by hand ... er, dirty bluejeans, after riding whatever?

[Guilherme]

Since western riding has its own vocabulary with regard to gaits, it would seem to me logical that they would use the words jog and lope in their tests. Amending jog to jog-trot to me would signify a slightly more animated jog/trot than in WP classes (which stand more or less by themselves).

Frankly, this is trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. If someone wants to try the western programs fine, have at it. I'll bet it will redefine itself as it progresses. And it certainly is no threat to "real" dressage (competition type), even though according to the "classical" purists, it is not real dressage either.

Actually, I have more of a problem with gaited dressage, since I think an actual trot/jog or what have you is essential in the overall picture of three pure gaits. However, I am not wailing and rending my garments because someone chooses to ride a "gaited dressage" test.

During prior "discussion" on "gaited dressage" I did some research and found a memo from a USDF committee that was directed to explore the possibility of including "gaited dressage" into the USDF format. The committee recommended against this inclusion. Their primary reason was that "purity of gait" is a critical element in evaluating a horse. Given the multiplicity of definitions of gait in most gaited breeds (not to mention the fluidity of those definitions within the breeds) it was unreasonable to expect a judge to master all of them and give an intelligent evaluation. Some major breeds, like the TWH, do not have a breed standard; breed standards would normally be expected to include a gait standard. They do have judging standards and gait descriptions, but even among TWH enthusiasts there is huge variety of opinion on what constitutes a correct "running walk." IMO the committee was correct in their assessment.

Re "western dressage," there are about as many styles of "western riding" as there are stars in the sky. Applying the same logic as was applied in the "gaited dressage" question how does a judge master all the various styles and how they affect movement?

Any individual "gaited horse dressage" or "western dressage" organization can control these variables by setting out a defined set of standards that a judge can apply. They might look to USDF for guidance (formally or informally) but the program will be unique to the organization creating it.

Personally, IMO the western and gaited folks trying to "storm the battlements" of USDF to get "recognition" are on a fool's errand. The practical difficulties are overwhelming. They are better off to stay in their own venues and do their own thing in the ways that they need to do them. If USDF folks have issues with those ways then I'd tell USDF to "kiss my grits."

Approaching organizations like USEF or FEI for formal recognition would be a subject for another day.

G.

[mbm]

^^^^ agree with the above and i think summarizes perfectly what i feel.

[katarine]

Personally, IMO the western and gaited folks trying to "storm the battlements" of USDF to get "recognition" are on a fool's errand. The practical difficulties are overwhelming. They are better off to stay in their own venues and do their own thing in the ways that they need to do them. If USDF folks have issues with those ways then I'd tell USDF to "kiss my grits."

As the gaited dressage peep here, I completely agree with you, G.

I am perfectly content to hit schooling shows, provide educational materials to the show's organizers in advance from NWHA and YouTubes, many a judge has addressed me as I ride around the arena before my test; they ask me for more information...that's fine...and we go and show and have a blast. If all I achieve among the trotters is that some of those riders see my horse, talk to me, and say some variant of 'that's cool, all I know about TWHs is that they do weird things to their feet, but what you're doing with that horse is pretty cool'...then that's more than enough for me. More than enough. I have no want, need, or desire from recognition or acceptance from USDF.

[ThreeFigs]

Agree with Guilherme. I attended a Train the Trainers conference here a few months ago and was gobsmacked. I think WD is useful for those who have become bored with the whole WP experience and seek something more challenging without the risks of speed events.

I had a hard time swallowing the "working jog", "lengthened jog", etc., and the examples of same were unclear at the forum. Some were live, some were presented on film. To give the organizers credit, this was the FIRST Train the Trainers presentation ever, and some of the rules and definitions were (are?) still being composed. Presentation of the variations of a gait would have been better showing the transitions between each.

After a few days of watching horses jog around more or less connected, with more or less impulsion, but at least with better carriage than a WP horse usually displays, I was happy to attend the NEDA Fall symposium to cleanse my palate with some "traditional" dressage.

I have a few Western riders who have displayed interest in dressage in their Western tack. They want to improve their horsemanship and their riding. They are curious about dressage, interested in the similarities and differences I'm FINE with that! I'm FINE with it if they eventually want to show WD or even Traditional dressage. When I teach them, however, I insist on achieving the best relaxation, connection and impulsion they can achieve, regardless of the tack.

One interesting pair at the TTT forum was a horse & rider combination who could effectively demonstrate both a WP frame AND a nice round upward and forward WD outline. That was very interesting and demonstrated how well these folks can "change gears", depending on the occasion.

WD hasn't even figured out which of the three organizations will become the dominant one. It's not time yet (maybe never) to approach USDF. I think they'd be better off having their own single governing body, separate from USDF, as the reiners & cutters do. Who knows? Perhaps some day they'll get recognized by the FEI, as reining has done. That's years away, I suspect.

[carolprudm]

I thought that video was gone for good, Skydy. I wonder if the good people who are part of SpiritH's Dressage Schooling Discussion FB group have ever seen that?

" ezduzit, I'm afraid clarity is not one of dragonharte8's strong points.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiHeTdTXtzA

http://www.ratemyhorsepro.com/equine...efendants.aspx

http://spirithorseltd.com.futuresite...obyjumping.jpg. "

LOL, I thought that video was gone also. I occasionally look at his facebook group and have to either laugh or cry. If the people on there SAW that video they would probably run or their lives

[lovey1121]

LOL, I thought that video was gone also. I occasionally look at his facebook group and have to either laugh or cry. If the people on there SAW that video they would probably run or their lives

It would be great if someone posted it. Eyes would be opened.

[BaroquePony]

The equestrian version of Mad Magazine .

[skydy]

LOL, I thought that video was gone also. I occasionally look at his facebook group and have to either laugh or cry. If the people on there SAW that video they would probably run or their lives

I think that the people on the facebook page (I am not on facebook so I can't say for certain) would most likely NOT know that they should run, and most likely also lack "googling" skills.. They must believe that Mr. Buck is a "trainer".

It seems that only an absolute beginner would fall for that nonsense, and since they are absolute beginners, how can they know that what they are seeing is an aberration?

It really is too bad. I am very tired of the Mr. Bucks of this world..

[ThreeFigs]

The equestrian version of Mad Magazine .

Very good!

[lovey1121]

I think that the people on the facebook page (I am not on facebook so I can't say for certain) would most likely NOT know that they should run, and most likely also lack "googling" skills.. They must believe that Mr. Buck is a "trainer".
It seems that only an absolute beginner would fall for that nonsense, and since they are absolute beginners, how can they know that what they are seeing is an aberration?
It really is too bad. I am very tired of the Mr. Bucks of this world..

The FB group has members who routinely rip apart every dressage competitor, from the always popular Totilas to Valegro-often started by the Rev, and then wax rhapsodic over prints and photos of old dead guys.

However I think these folks would be shocked at the riding skills and theories of the group founder OK, people-you criticize the best competitive horses and riders in the world with your little diagrams - how about comparing Valegro to Sundust (who is apparently been knighted and is now called Royal Sundust)? And let's superimpose Ed Gal's and Charlotte's position pics over the Rev's, shall we?

I think they would all run screaming away There has to be someone here on Coth who is a member of that group. Please post that video! Though the Rev would probably delete it immediately-heaven forbid anyone expose the Emperor's nekkid chairseat

Impressive underneck muscle development, Rev! Especially impessive without a bit involved

ETA - Seems the Rev's dying to share his knowledge with the worl. From his group FB page:

An offer to American horse folks.
I will offer to conduct a two day horsemanship clinic for a flat fee of $600.00 plus expenses. The teachings will be predicated upon what the horse requires of the rider in order to enhance performance, as well as, the health and welfare of the horse. “Ask and allow, do not demand and force” is the foundation of the teachings.
I ask that the individuals holding the clinic and charging for the clinic donate 20% of fees to a horse rescue organization in their immediate area. I ask that riders allow me the right to video them and use said videos for educational purposes. Folks can video the clinic with no restrictions. Folks can ask questions and expect answers."

[alicen]

From Mr Buck's website: ATTENTION
PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT
BY USDF

Instead of working to achieve harmony and balance between dressage and western dressage, the USDF chooses to maintain the chasm of disagreement and elitist attitude that
is rampant in the competition arena.

[mjhco]

How nice of him.


I have to say I am about as supportive of folks trying dressage in western tack as anyone. I intend to utilize that venue as part of a method of bringing my own horse back from rehab.

However, until the 3 (or however many other groups) who want to define western dressage can come together and work toward one common goal, I have to agree that other national organizations (USEF, USDF, AQHA, AHA, etc) need to stay far far away.

Something about a house divided against itself...

[carolprudm]

From Mr Buck's website: ATTENTION
PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT
BY USDF

Instead of working to achieve harmony and balance between dressage and western dressage, the USDF chooses to maintain the chasm of disagreement and elitist attitude that
is rampant in the competition arena.

Some times i really miss those red thumbs.

Never fear EAB is working to bridge the chasm with his new FB group North American Open Dressage Federation not to be confused with the North american classical Dressage Riders Society.

The Federation is NOT about leaving competition, it is about giving a 'rebirth of correctness' to competition. At the national and international GP dressage, correctness is not the norm and is not rewarded. One of the goals of the federation is to get correctness back into those arenas. In order to do so the judges must be given horse/rider combinations that 'can and do' clearly meet the well stipulated descriptions in the rules. And the Federation is NOT just about dressage in the arena, it is about dressage for all venues including cow work, jumping, eventing, or whatever.

Founding Directors:
Executive Director: E. Allan Buck
Directors: Lee Earnshaw, Michael Vermass, Jenn Rudner

[lovey1121]

Yes, I saw that stuff also. Carol, do you think the Rev will post himself as a rider in that forum so that he can discuss himself? Just who does he consider correct, besides himself and Sylvia Loch?

Sounds like the Rev is hurting for cash and looking to make a buck on people who know or see no better. The whole giving a percentage of $ is a nice touch, though he asks that the Clinic holders do the donating

Looks like at least one of his directors is strongly suggesting that he post a video. The minions are grumbling.

[Lost_at_C]

Ugghh... too much holiday-induced aimlessness for me I think. I actually looked up the FB page and did a quick Google of the Directors' names, out of curiosity. One of the results was certainly, um... interesting! I suspect we'll all be threatened with litigation before long though. Thankfully I'm quite certain that the general Western Dressage Community is far more sophisticated.

[ThreeFigs]

Oh, to be a fly on the wall at one of his "clinics"! That is, if he finds someone foolish enough to host one...