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  1. #1
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    Default It is Not the Guns but the medications the killers are on.

    The link is frightening.

    http://www.ssristories.com/index.php?p=school

    Would have cut and pasted but it would not format.
    but it lists around 50 incedents of school violence* (mostly in the US mostly with guns) and all linked to medications.


    The media is quick to jump on, and point out the gun issue in this tragic shooting. What they fail to point out is that in every single case bar none, Big Pharma anti-psychotic drugs have been ingested.
    The shooter in Connecticut has a history of mental illiness already.
    Odd that the mainstream media has failed to point that out - oh not really note how many commercials for prescription drugs they run.


    from site)
    The main page on thhe linked site describe events that occurred after the year 2000. The increase in online news material and the efficiency of search engines has greatly increased the ability to track stories. Even these 4,800+ documented stories only represent the tip of an iceberg since most stories do not make it into the media. There are 115 cases of bizarre behavior, 66 school shootings/incidents, 68 road rage tragedies, 19 air rage incidents, 101 arson cases, 70 postpartum depression cases, over 1,000 murders (homicides) or murder attempts, over 300 murder-suicides (30% committed by women) and other acts of violence including workplace violence on this site. There are also over 100 Journal Articles and FDA reports listed in the Index. They are at the top of the Index immediately below the 66 school shootings/incidents and the 29 "won" criminal cases
    Last edited by 5; Dec. 17, 2012 at 11:22 AM.
    I ain't voting for Gennifer Flower's ex-boyfriend's wife!


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  2. #2
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    Default

    That is scary given our new dependence on anti depression and anti anxiety drugs. I hope medical science comes up with some better options for people who are depressed.



  3. #3
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    Default

    I wish I could remember the name of the article/essay I read a few months ago, where the author considers how the generation of teens/young adults coming up now have a significant percentage of people who have been on psychopharmaceuticals since before puberty, and wondering what does it mean that instead of learning to handle emotional highs and lows (which is what a lot of medicated 'depression' actually is these days), accepting disappointments, and managing their own behavior, they've been medicated. She also brings up that most of the drugs prescribed to these kids were R&D'd by their developers for ADULTS. They weren't developed with the intent of being given to kids whose brains were growing and developing so there was never research done on how giving SSRIs and other brain-chemistry-altering chemicals to someone whose brain is still growing affects its development. They were meant for adults who couldn't be helped any other way, not for managing teenage emotion swings, and there's no way of knowing how they're affecting long-term behavior, developing real coping mechanisms, or even the physical and chemical structure of the brain.


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  4. #4
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    Default

    The body, and in particular, the mind, are a delicate chemical balance that is easily upset by injury, nutrition, and a host of other factors. The fact that "mental health professionals" and their ilk regularly perscribe a series of mood-altering and mind-altering substances to deal with common anxiety and depression issues instead of giving people the tools and resources to cope with or solve their problems is a tragedy and a cop-out. Sure, some people can and should benefit from very specific medications administered under adequate supervision, but by and large most people don't need drugs, they need solutions.
    Nudging "Almost Heaven" a little closer still...
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  5. #5
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    Default

    OP, is your argument that being on meds *causes* "crazy shooter"?

    That doesn't follow from the data the article gave. Just so you know.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


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  6. #6
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    Default

    Not to mention kids, as a "protected population", generally don't have drugs R&D'd especially for them. Hell, Tylenol that people give to infants isn't R&D'd especially for them. Just about the only meds tested specially for kids are for childhood-only diseases.
    Kinda like pregnant women. Drugs are not tested on them, so you have to look at best available evidence to guesstimate if a med will have some effect on the fetus.



  7. #7
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    Default

    I do think SSRI's are either a godsend or extremely dangerous and people should be monitored much more closely when taking them.

    I suffered from depression for a period of time and took Wellbutrin. It did a great job, but increased my anxiety.

    They gave me Effexor to try next and I went, literally, off the rails. It made me manic, as in bipolar manic. Really more hypomanic, clinically, but it was scary as all get out and almost cost me my marriage. I stopped against doctor's orders and had to deal with severe withdrawal.

    Since then, I've learned more about how the SSRIs work, and how they are prescribed. My doctor's office has a "well, if it cures you, then we'll know that's what you have" approach to medication. Which works well when it's something like an infection, but less well when it's something like brain chemicals.

    Since then I've discovered that my feelings of depression were due to SAD, hormonal imbalances, and a few other things about my personality that I've had to grow into.

    For some people they CAN be lifesavers, but..yea....


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  8. #8
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    Default

    But there is a major difference between how Tylenol functions in the body, and how Paxil, Celexa, and their ilk alter how a growing brain functions. You're toying with how a brain uses different chemicals using an arbitrary adult-based definition of what is 'normal' (which is problematic anyway), on a brain that is ACKNOWLEDGED not to be done developing and changing. How many other situations do we see where it's pointed out that teenage brains are different in how they do things like assess risk because certain parts aren't fully formed yet? But if a child is "depressed" or "hyper", it's all right to go in with drugs that change how the brain is using chemicals, based on a model of an adult, developed brain?

    Plus just the question of whether we SHOULD medicate 99% of these kids, instead of teaching them that you do NOT always or even often get what you want, we are NOT all special snowflakes, you will NOT be happy all the time, and you need to learn to cope with it? Plus for adolescents, there WILL be hormonal highs and lows that can alter behavior. That's not a 'disorder', that's something a normal person has to learn to manage without being drugged. There are very, very few people who actually *cannot* do any of these things, but teaching coping skills is hard, writing a prescription is easy.


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  9. #9
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    Default

    Keep in mind that people who commit these heinous acts are more likely to be on these drugs to begin with. I don't think you can conclude that these drugs caused these people to "snap."

    It's true, these drugs do have side effects, but be careful when looking at raw data.

    However, I have no reservations saying that it is insanity to allow the legal purchase of automatic assault weapons.


    10 members found this post helpful.

  10. #10
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    Default

    As someone on an SSRI who was dealing with crippling anxiety and depression, I have to say that I find the claims that kids are being medicated because they "were never taught to deal with life" offensive. Yes, these drugs need to be handled carefully; yes, they should not be prescribed without serious consideration of the effects. It's silly to say that 99% of the kids on these meds are just evidence of parenting failure.

    And the claim that the medications are causing these mass shootings is a cop out. The article doesn't say that, the evidence doesn't conclude anything, and it's a desperate grab for something to blame other than guns and an incredibly poor mental health support system in this country.


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  11. #11
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    Default

    The drugs can be a godsend in the right hands with the right treatment, but even with all of those things a person can still get a terrible idea in their head.

    A combination of factors in a shooters life, mental illness, obsessions, depression, brain structure and the events leading up to the time of the shooting all play a role. That is why these events cannot be predicted with any sort of certainty. Some people who snap show obvious signs they are about to do something others don't. Sadly not until after a horrible tragedy are professionals able to go back and find small clues.
    I don't think we can prevent these from happening in the future. in the end the only hope I think is more and easier access to mental health services which will possibly help but there is no guarantee.


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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_red_ottb View Post
    As someone on an SSRI who was dealing with crippling anxiety and depression, I have to say that I find the claims that kids are being medicated because they "were never taught to deal with life" offensive. Yes, these drugs need to be handled carefully; yes, they should not be prescribed without serious consideration of the effects. It's silly to say that 99% of the kids on these meds are just evidence of parenting failure. .
    I wasn't trying to offend, please don't take it as such. I've walked one hellacious road from age 7 to age 18, and at the end of the day, not a damn thing worked but time; in fact it was over a decade before I felt comfortable dealing with certain isolated segments of society again. I still have days where I just don't want to be around people at all. Yet I've seeen literally dozens of people bounce from various psychotrope to psychotope to make them "feel better"... people who can identify directly the very real things that bring them down, then instead of fixing them, take those drugs to not care, just a legal happy pill version of a joint.There are people with legitimate, chemical reasons that xyz medication works for them. Awesome. I'm totally behind it. My First GF was a nasty b* before she found the precisely correct dosage of Lithium. Now she's normal,, functional, and as far as the rest of the world is concerned... nice.Really, I'm not slamming people who need xyz medication. I'm slamming the docs who hand it out like candy to whomever thinks they're having a bad day.
    Nudging "Almost Heaven" a little closer still...
    http://www.wvhorsetrainer.com


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  13. #13
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    But there is a major difference between how Tylenol functions in the body, and how Paxil, Celexa, and their ilk alter how a growing brain functions. You're toying with how a brain uses different chemicals using an arbitrary adult-based definition of what is 'normal' (which is problematic anyway), on a brain that is ACKNOWLEDGED not to be done developing and changing. How many other situations do we see where it's pointed out that teenage brains are different in how they do things like assess risk because certain parts aren't fully formed yet? But if a child is "depressed" or "hyper", it's all right to go in with drugs that change how the brain is using chemicals, based on a model of an adult, developed brain?

    Plus just the question of whether we SHOULD medicate 99% of these kids, instead of teaching them that you do NOT always or even often get what you want, we are NOT all special snowflakes, you will NOT be happy all the time, and you need to learn to cope with it? Plus for adolescents, there WILL be hormonal highs and lows that can alter behavior. That's not a 'disorder', that's something a normal person has to learn to manage without being drugged. There are very, very few people who actually *cannot* do any of these things, but teaching coping skills is hard, writing a prescription is easy.
    Great post.
    I think that for many kids, they have medicated away any feelings of stress, failure, and anxiety. People need those feelings to learn to cope with life. If you have no coping mechanisms, and haven't learned to deal with failure, then you will have a very difficult life. All people need to feel pain, and emotional gurt and sadness to develop empathy. An empathetic person is less likely to kill others.
    I mentioned in another thread that my 22 yr old niece wanted meds because she felt stressed after getting fired from a job for poor work ethics (actually she hasn't held a job longer than 2 months except for her first real job that lasted a yr until she won an insurance settlement from a car accident. It was less than 15k, but she felt rich and quit job and went on a spending spree and used up the money in 3 months), having her car be in danger of being repo'd and was evicted from her apt and moved in with my mom. YOU SHOULD FEEL STRESSED UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES! She doesn't need meds...she needs to grow up and stop being so irresponsible.

    Medication should be an absolute last resort, especially for kids.
    Hillary Clinton - proven liar, cheat, traitor and defender of rapists! Anyone but Hillary 2016! https://www.facebook.com/AntiHillary2016


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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belg View Post
    . The fact that "mental health professionals" and their ilk regularly perscribe a series of mood-altering and mind-altering substances to deal with common anxiety and depression issues instead of giving people the tools and resources to cope with or solve their problems is a tragedy and a cop-out. Sure, some people can and should benefit from very specific medications administered under adequate supervision, but by and large most people don't need drugs, they need solutions.
    As a "mental health professional" I can say me and "my ilk" do NOT regularly give "mood altering substances" to people "instead of tools and resources"! Are we now blaming mental health professionals? That is why I spend hours doing assessments! Why others of our "ilk" are up at 1:35 in the morning down at the ER working out an issue with a client.

    Some people (certainly, by no means, all) benefit very, very much from medications. Seen it too many times that people get their lives back. Why would I want to deny them that?? Others a) do not want them (meds), b) can't afford therapy (a reality for most, even when people like myself and colleagues see people for peanuts just to get them in) c) are not compliant with therapy or medications, i.e., do NOT take them as directed, or drink, for which you cannot blame the meds! They do indeed need solutions and for some, even if it makes you unhappy, that includes an antidepressant. And if it works for then, terrific! Sure, of course I support counseling with that but I would never condemn an entire intervention because it doesn't work for some.

    I would hope NO professional takes a "drug all kids all the time" approach! For SOME kids though, meds of some sort are really important and improve their lives dramatically. In certain combinations, with certain kids? No. But that is a choice their parents and treatment provider (and usually the kid themselves) get to make, not random strangers who don't like medications. I Sometimes research is not as far along as we'd like, but people are desperate by that time and want whatever relief is available. I'm sorry you and others had a rough time but that is NOT the story for every kid.


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  15. #15
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    Yes, some people benefit from xyz medication. But there are literally dozens of cases I personally know of where people got some fundamentally screwed up medications on a "here, try this" basis. That is an undeniable fact.Furthermore, I have -perosnally- been involved with, and -personally- proscribed medications based on haphazard, crappy misdiagnoses of conditions that put me at serious risk... in one particular case, I was within about 30 seconds of death.Ironically, the stupid SOB that threw a 7 year old kid... me... on Phenobarbital because he grossly misdiagnosed what was going on back in 1977 is now a "world renouned expert" in the condition he failed to recognize.... oh, and shall we talk about Ritalin? Ooo wee fun. Hell, maybe I'm the reason he became the expert. Who knows. By the way, Halperidol can kill you. Be nice if they told you that before prescribing it.
    Nudging "Almost Heaven" a little closer still...
    http://www.wvhorsetrainer.com



  16. #16
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    I think it is more likely the meds the shooter SHOULD be on, but isn't.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


    11 members found this post helpful.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_red_ottb View Post
    As someone on an SSRI who was dealing with crippling anxiety and depression, I have to say that I find the claims that kids are being medicated because they "were never taught to deal with life" offensive. Yes, these drugs need to be handled carefully; yes, they should not be prescribed without serious consideration of the effects. It's silly to say that 99% of the kids on these meds are just evidence of parenting failure.

    And the claim that the medications are causing these mass shootings is a cop out. The article doesn't say that, the evidence doesn't conclude anything, and it's a desperate grab for something to blame other than guns and an incredibly poor mental health support system in this country.
    Thanks for saying this. I completely agree (and am on an SSRI).
    "A horse gallops with his lungs, perseveres with his heart, and wins with his character." - Tesio


    9 members found this post helpful.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    Great post.
    I think that for many kids, they have medicated away any feelings of stress, failure, and anxiety. People need those feelings to learn to cope with life. If you have no coping mechanisms, and haven't learned to deal with failure, then you will have a very difficult life. All people need to feel pain, and emotional gurt and sadness to develop empathy. An empathetic person is less likely to kill others.
    I mentioned in another thread that my 22 yr old niece wanted meds because she felt stressed after getting fired from a job for poor work ethics (actually she hasn't held a job longer than 2 months except for her first real job that lasted a yr until she won an insurance settlement from a car accident. It was less than 15k, but she felt rich and quit job and went on a spending spree and used up the money in 3 months), having her car be in danger of being repo'd and was evicted from her apt and moved in with my mom. YOU SHOULD FEEL STRESSED UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES! She doesn't need meds...she needs to grow up and stop being so irresponsible.

    Medication should be an absolute last resort, especially for kids.
    I think this is generally right. IMO, people need to learn to cope with bad-feeling emotions-- frustration, not liking yourself, feeling powerless or lonely while those are short-lived and while the stakes are low. They need to learn what helps them change those up for them.

    For kids who feel that stuff "beyond normal limits"-- in intensity or duration? I think medication can intelligently used to take the edge off. But that's only so that kiddo has the room to learn to deal with what's left.

    But it takes time and work to teach emotional self care. IMO, parents, teachers (or school systems) and too many psych pros (not to mention insurance companies) want a quick fix. Perhaps they feel judged by the speed with which they can make a problem appear to go away.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janet View Post
    I think it is more likely the meds the shooter SHOULD be on, but isn't.
    Agree.


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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belg View Post
    Yes, some people benefit from xyz medication. But there are literally dozens of cases I personally know of where people got some fundamentally screwed up medications on a "here, try this" basis. That is an undeniable fact.Furthermore, I have -perosnally- been involved with, and -personally- proscribed medications based on haphazard, crappy misdiagnoses of conditions that put me at serious risk... in one particular case, I was within about 30 seconds of death.Ironically, the stupid SOB that threw a 7 year old kid... me... on Phenobarbital because he grossly misdiagnosed what was going on back in 1977 is now a "world renouned expert" in the condition he failed to recognize.... oh, and shall we talk about Ritalin? Ooo wee fun. Hell, maybe I'm the reason he became the expert. Who knows. By the way, Halperidol can kill you. Be nice if they told you that before prescribing it.
    Again, because you had a bad experience (and that happens, unfortunately, and "our ilk" really hate it when it does) does NOT mean "bad experience for everyone". I have had bad experiences with physicians but that does not mean all docs are evil or incompetent! Some are, but hardly all! Obviously whatever happened for you didn't work, but for many, who will NOT make the press because they are feeling better, it has been like the sun coming out. Many feel a great deal of shame because in spite of trying and trying, in some cases for YEARS, to "learn coping skills" and so forth they feel like failures because they dno't feel better. And there are people around to tell them they "arent' trying hard enough". And what relief when they can function!! Funny, people generally don't tell a diabetic to "try harder" if their body is not producing enough insulin. That's that old "mental illness is a moral issue" viewpoint most of my ilk wish would die a permanent death, sad to see it still alive and well. Medication is by no means perfect, or appropriate for everyone, or something to be taken casually, either in kids or adults. And I think providers have an obligation to tell clients ITS AN ART not an exact science and be available as someone is trying a new medication. But that hardly warrants dissing meds for everyone. As a much wiser person than me noted, "the plural of anecdote is NOT data!!!!!"


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