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  1. #161
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    I can agree with that assessment but I'd still like to definitively know that there's no official documentation that the kid had mental problems.
    SPACE FOR RENT



  2. #162
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    I didn't quite read through all 9 pages, but I agree with Anne FS, in that, this mother is responsible for the safety of her two small children. If something should happen to them, their blood will be on her hands. If she can't deal with the problem child, and she has no where to send him to get help, she needs to find a new home for the other two. Seriously. If I knew the family personally, I would be calling child protective services to try to get the two youngsters out of the house, same as if there were a crazy, threatening, violent adult in the house.
    Jigga:
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  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by wendy View Post
    I can't believe that ANYONE would be so clueless as to believe that beating/spanking mentally ill children would somehow "help" them. Spanking doesn't help mentally normal children learn self-control or boundaries- quite the opposite. You take someone who is mentally abnormal, which means they don't react normally to social/environmental stimuli, and punish them with violence, what you expect they might learn? possibly nothing, but most likely they just learn what "normal" children learn from spanking- that violence towards other people is acceptable and normal. You just taught your kid that if you don't like how someone is behaving, the acceptable response is to beat/hit/spank/kill. Kids learn from your example. Violence begets violence. There are probably far more incidents of violence in society that are caused by parents beating their kids than there are incidents caused by mental illness.

    and the worst of the mental illnesses, in many ways, is psychopathy- if you read that article someone posted early on, you learn that one key aspect of psychopathy is the children don't respond to negative consequences. They really don't care what you think of them, or what you do to them, including spanking. They are untrainable by punishment- however, they clearly respond to positive reinforcement, rapidly learning how to manipulate people in order to GET WHAT THEY WANT. Positive reinforcement. Perhaps they could be trained to be non-violent, to pretend to have empathy, to behave normally, by using some kind of systematic positive reinforcement system?

    beating a child with autism, including asperger's syndrome, is abusive. I hope the person bragging about how she abused her child realizes this. Current treatments for children with these disorders certainly do NOT include beatings.
    Sorry but this post is ridiculous. The most violent children I've been around were never spanked but boy did they need it. Perfectly normal kids, just undisciplined. They bit, hit, and kicked their mother (my SIL). Amazing, and not in a good way. The girl was so undisciplined she got kicked out of elementary school -- the first delinquent in the family!

    Spanking and just hitting a kid out of anger are two COMPLETELY different things. That's what most of the anti-spanking crowd doesn't get. Some kids never need to be spanked and others are just not very sensitive and very determined.

    I didn't have kids but I don't need to be a parent to know these things.

    When I was a teenager I often babysat two kids whose father/ stepfather committed suicide. Both kids were difficult but the 2 1/2 year old became really difficult for a while. She was of course allowed to be sad and to be angry but she wasn't allowed to take her anger out on her mother or me.


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  4. #164
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    I think that it varies from kid to kid.

    I did not spank my middle son. He never required it. He is a bright and capable, easy to get along with, friendly and incredibly mature 13 year old who isn't violent in the least (nor spoiled). He never hit anyone, he's against bullying...he's a team player (wrestling and football)....

    I have another child who is incredibly incredibly difficult.

    I mean - come on people, we are horse people. We know of horses that MAKING them submit isn't in the cards. I've seen the outcome of horses that people tried that number on that turned out extremely poorly. I've ALSO seen horses that had you gone soft on them, they'd walk all over you.

    Dogs are the same way. I have two dobermans. One responds very well to play and negative consequences. She's got other issues, but she is easy to discipline. I have another, sweet sweet dog, who we could not figure out how to discipline. NOTHING phased this dog. He was not particularly food motivated, so it was very difficult to lure him as a pup. Finally I discovered that he loved loved loved just being loved on, and he heels beautifully off lead and does other things *just* by positive reinforcement.

    Each kid is different, each situation is different. I don't think there's any categorically YOU SHALL or YOU SHALL NOT in parenting, besides loving the kid and trying to teach them as well as you can.

    There's also a difference in "allowing" violence and "not spanking". It's not "spank or leave the kid to run wild" (I am not saying that spanking is not a viable option, I'm just saying that it's just one of many tools that should be in the toolbox, just like the crop is just one of the many tools in the toolbox).


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  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by EqTrainer View Post
    Thank you. When Stolen Virtue said her son had a bunch of time outs one morning I knew she and I were not talking about the same type of behaviour at all. My son did not do time outs. He would not accept it, he would not do it, he would not sit there or stand there. When you watch those Nanny shows and they nicely march the child back there when they decline to time out? I would watch with my mouth open, catching flies, because I could not imagine how cool that would be.

    My son *had* mental health care at four. He went to a play therapist 3x a week. He had a brief stint in preschool and their answer was to isolate him (which FWIW IMO creates a false safe because the child cannot harm anyone but he is also learning that it feels ok to be lonely - not something I wanted to reinforce) so that was a no-go. But what I want to point out and emphasize is that it was a non-stop effort. When I wasnt dealing with him I was researching how to deal with him. i didnt get to go to therapy myself, until much later LOL.

    Something both FG and I brought up is that we see other kids like ours every day in their schools and the apathy displayed by their parents is scary. The diagnosis becomes the excuse for all bad behaviours. The meds arent going to teach kids how to get along in the world, only the parents can do that. There is only so much therapy and meds can do for a kid. I dont know what the social answer for that is.
    Bears repeating.

    In NO WAY am I a model parent and I do not have the answers, but I AM disturbed by the apathy I see with a lot of other parents who have children with "diagnosed" issues. As much as I truly believe a good support system needs to be in place for people/children who have severe mental illness (or even mild issues,) parents do rely too much on meds, schools, daycares, doctors sometimes. Or they just can't be bothered dealing, so they let other people do it. The sad thing is that the parent is the child's best advocate. That is especially what I learned from my grandma in her parenting of my schizophrenic uncle.

    Like EqT's situation, my daughter's preschool wanted to isolate her, which was the last thing she needed. She needed help socializing and relating to her peers, not isolation, because that was only going to exacerbate the problem. Her pre-school teacher called her aggressive, angry, and all other sorts of things. In our case, that was a hugely incorrect assesment at that point. The "anger" she saw borne out of frustration-- that frustration came from her inability to relate and read social interaction correctly.

    If the isolation had continued, if she had not been taught the coping or social skills she needed, yes her frustration would have turned to anger, I am certain. The isolation was especially cruel and ineffective IMO because we had two things going on-- #1, difficulty with social skills and #2, being adopted, she is black and we are white, and that age she was becoming aware of such. She already felt different, isolating her only made it worse!

    I could work this all out in my head but her teacher could not, so I battled for months and finally changed classrooms, then changed schools.

    She is a smart, funny, amazing, outgoing, social JOY.... but easily could have easily been pushed down the wrong path. I thank my lucky stars that Mr. FG and I sussed her out when she was little.... and then we busted our asses to go to bat for what we felt was the best thing for her, even when her teacher and the administration thought we were bonkers, and should just shut up and follow their own recommendations. There have been many days when I've wanted to write them a letter and say hey look how great she is doing NOW..... Someday when she is President, I will.
    We couldn't all be cowboys, so some of us are clowns.


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  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by saultgirl View Post
    I didn't quite read through all 9 pages, but I agree with Anne FS, in that, this mother is responsible for the safety of her two small children. If something should happen to them, their blood will be on her hands. If she can't deal with the problem child, and she has no where to send him to get help, she needs to find a new home for the other two. Seriously. If I knew the family personally, I would be calling child protective services to try to get the two youngsters out of the house, same as if there were a crazy, threatening, violent adult in the house.
    I'm not sure about calling CPS for the other two kids-- languishing in the system sure isn't going to be any better for them.

    Has anyone seen the documentaries about the little girl named January who is one of the youngest diagnosed schizophrenics? Her parents ended up renting two separate apartments so their younger son would be protected from her. Has to be exceptionally difficult living in that reality. I felt exhausted just watching the hour long programs.
    We couldn't all be cowboys, so some of us are clowns.


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  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief2 View Post
    I have just finished reading an article written by a retired FBI profiler. She, and another FBI profiler I saw interviewed on TV have both said to take mental illness off of the table in the Lanza case. They feel this was well planned out well ahead of the event, that there was no snapping here, and that he took care to kill anyone who could get in his way, thereby securing his path to destruction both at home and through the school. They have both said not to use mental illness as an excuse or a blame in this case. It doesn't fit. The planning here probably took him months.

    That said, I agree the state of mental health in this country needs a complete overhaul.
    Well then, do you consider a sociopath to be mentally ill? I do, I guess it's just a matter of definition. I'm hoping, somewhere down the line we can find a treatment or a cause. One in 25 is a sociopath, with no empathy. Scary thought indeed.

    A must read is the book The Sociopath Next Door.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


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  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by EqTrainer View Post
    Thank you. When Stolen Virtue said her son had a bunch of time outs one morning I knew she and I were not talking about the same type of behaviour at all. My son did not do time outs. He would not accept it, he would not do it, he would not sit there or stand there. When you watch those Nanny shows and they nicely march the child back there when they decline to time out? I would watch with my mouth open, catching flies, because I could not imagine how cool that would be.

    My son *had* mental health care at four. He went to a play therapist 3x a week. He had a brief stint in preschool and their answer was to isolate him (which FWIW IMO creates a false safe because the child cannot harm anyone but he is also learning that it feels ok to be lonely - not something I wanted to reinforce) so that was a no-go. But what I want to point out and emphasize is that it was a non-stop effort. When I wasnt dealing with him I was researching how to deal with him. i didnt get to go to therapy myself, until much later LOL.

    Something both FG and I brought up is that we see other kids like ours every day in their schools and the apathy displayed by their parents is scary. The diagnosis becomes the excuse for all bad behaviours. The meds arent going to teach kids how to get along in the world, only the parents can do that. There is only so much therapy and meds can do for a kid. I dont know what the social answer for that is.
    And this is why I don't like to speak of my personal issues on a BB. Really, you think I am complaining about telling my son to go into his room for a time out ? You are either trying to convince yourself that you are alone in your problems or just trying to get people's sympathy.

    My son was carried with his arms secured into his room where he threw things and screamed. We worked through it and by the time he was almost 5 he would go to his room on his own accord. I have been kicked, scratched, bitten and hit by my young son while teaching him to control his anger and violent outbursts.

    I did not spank or hit him, he was violent and needed to see another reaction in order to learn a new behavior. We got through it.


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  9. #169
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    SV, the way I read her post was just that time outs, for her son, were not going to happen.

    I dunno, I am still of the mindset that every situation is different and what works for one will not necessarily work for another. Except, bottom line, parent involvement/advocacy is key. Parents need to PARENT, whatever their ideologies.

    It's odd how some things in this thread have been taken out of context, or misconstrued. I don't think EqT ever advocated "abusing" a "mentally ill" child. Maybe it is just that in knowing EqT in real life, I hardly see her as an "abusive" parent (and her kids are quite lovely....)

    As far as the original blog post, there are now a few interviews with the blogger floating around the internet, as well as many rebuttals and responses.
    We couldn't all be cowboys, so some of us are clowns.



  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    And this is why I don't like to speak of my personal issues on a BB. Really, you think I am complaining about telling my son to go into his room for a time out ? You are either trying to convince yourself that you are alone in your problems or just trying to get people's sympathy.

    My son was carried with his arms secured into his room where he threw things and screamed. We worked through it and by the time he was almost 5 he would go to his room on his own accord. I have been kicked, scratched, bitten and hit by my young son while teaching him to control his anger and violent outbursts.

    I did not spank or hit him, he was violent and needed to see another reaction in order to learn a new behavior. We got through it.
    No, I dont think that, and I am sorry if it seemed that I implied that and I appreciate your "listening" and thoughtful responses.

    I just got home from a nice dinner with my son that made me realize reliving this is stressing me out. So I am done.

    I sincerely hope everyones kids are, and remain, just fine.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
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    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.


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  11. #171
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    Well clearly some people would have said that time outs were not working for my son. I remember going to work with bruises on my face from being hit.

    My point is that sometimes just being consistent with the same response gets the message across but it takes time and I see parents resort to agressive punishment when they see it taking too long. This is just my experience with my own son, and we consulted a ped. and almost sought help. I wanted to just keep going with consistent responses and eventually it worked....but it was long and hard. I just cannot say where we would be had we inflicted severe punishment.

    He is sweet and able to deal with frusterations without becoming violent now-now that he is as tall as me...



  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    The little babooshka
    "Babooshka" (Бабушка) is Russian for "Grandmother." Perhaps you meant to use the Yiddish "bubala"?

    Carry on!
    I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right
    Violence doesn't end violence. It extends it. Break the cycle.


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  13. #173
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    But babooshka sounds so much better somehow.
    We couldn't all be cowboys, so some of us are clowns.


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  14. #174
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    I love the way "bubala" rolls off my tongue.
    I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right
    Violence doesn't end violence. It extends it. Break the cycle.



  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Well then, do you consider a sociopath to be mentally ill? I do, I guess it's just a matter of definition. I'm hoping, somewhere down the line we can find a treatment or a cause. One in 25 is a sociopath, with no empathy. Scary thought indeed.

    A must read is the book The Sociopath Next Door.
    A bad/evil person does not have to be a sociopath to do harm. Not all mentally ill/challenged people do evil things. Back in Williamsburg, VA we had Eastern State Hospital. Many patients were allowed to go around town unsupervised on day passes. When interacting with a patient in town, well you knew it was a patient from the hospital. Mostly those with day passes were like a Crazy Aunt or Uncle- maybe use a swear word too much, not make strong eye contact and have a odd way of going or too loud a laugh. Patients who were high risk were simply not let off the hospital grounds, ever.

    It varies by state but generally a doctor or panel has to label the person mentally ill. Sociopaths live in denial, lie, lack empathy and so on. Not all sociopaths are criminal or mental. In the example of Lanza, we have not seen anything, other that a remark attributed to his Mother saying he had aspergers, that shows he was mentally ill. I think we all might agree that he was evil for sure.



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    This is a very interesting discussion going on. A lot of people have very valid points. But I'm also a bit confused.

    Are there those of you who think this kid - Adam - could have somehow had (behavioral/medical/pharmaceutical) intervention early on that could have prevented this mass killing spree?
    Barn rat for life

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  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashGordon View Post
    I'm not sure about calling CPS for the other two kids-- languishing in the system sure isn't going to be any better for them.

    Has anyone seen the documentaries about the little girl named January who is one of the youngest diagnosed schizophrenics? Her parents ended up renting two separate apartments so their younger son would be protected from her. Has to be exceptionally difficult living in that reality. I felt exhausted just watching the hour long programs.
    Really? Then what the heck is the system for, if not to protect children from violent, homicidal and suicidal family members? If something happens to those kids, the mother is 100% responsible.
    Jigga:
    Why must you chastise my brilliant idea with facts and logic? **picks up toys (and wine) and goes home**



  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by wcporter View Post
    This is a very interesting discussion going on. A lot of people have very valid points. But I'm also a bit confused.

    Are there those of you who think this kid - Adam - could have somehow had (behavioral/medical/pharmaceutical) intervention early on that could have prevented this mass killing spree?
    I certainly do not know. I know one child with Aspergers and he is dysfunctional much of the time. When he was young he was reserved but would speak of violent aspirations with my kids and our friends kids.

    I don't know, but when you have children you have to accept and deal with the people who are your children. I wish there was more help for young children with behavior issues, many can "grow out of it" but some do not....



  19. #179
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    Just a reminder that in stead of worrying about the psychopath next door its probably more productive to worry about the drunk next door. People with no mental illness who have drug or alcohol problems are seven times more likely to commit violence than those who don't.

    Angry, loner guys with problems seem to be the perpetrators but we do NOT know what distinguishes the from the vast, vast, VAST majority of basically harmless, troubled, loner, angry guys.

    I worry a lot that "the mentally ill" are really stigmatized now, with little distinction.


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  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Well then, do you consider a sociopath to be mentally ill? I do, I guess it's just a matter of definition. I'm hoping, somewhere down the line we can find a treatment or a cause. One in 25 is a sociopath, with no empathy. Scary thought indeed.

    A must read is the book The Sociopath Next Door.
    There is something intrinsically wrong with antisocial personalities, sure.

    But they know what they're doing, they know that society considers it wrong (even if they don't feel the wrongness). Sociopaths aren't like those people who lose touch with reality, kill someone and sit there explaining that some voice told them to. Sociopaths plan their actions, they conceal their crimes just like non-sociopathic criminals: they know it's wrong, and they don't want to get caught.

    Very few mental conditions are an excuse for criminal action. Loss of touch with reality is one; sociopathy is not. Whether one considers them mentally ill or not, they are still fully responsible for their behavior.


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