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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    That kid on the blog may be mentally ill, but mostly he's a brat and a psychopath. Mentally ill people cannot turn off their illness and upset at will like that kid can.
    .
    I think it would be fair to count psychopath as mentally ill. If we're counting those outside of the normal and unable to function within society without assistance...definitely counts.


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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by sketcher View Post
    How on earth could ET possibly think this mother is dealing with a spoiled child who just needs a spanking?
    On the "spoiled" and "master manipulator" issues.

    I don't think EqT's discussion of spanking in her post meant much more than an Off The Record comment from a pediatrician about a stop-gap measure that was part of raising her Asperger's son. It was not presented as a cure. It was a "Look, Asperger's or not, your life and his life is going to be a whole lot better if you can teach him boundaries. If this kid takes spanking to just to that bit of work, do what you have to do."

    Kiddo as master manipulator? Yes and no. I can promise you that *he* doesn't see it that way, as in "I'll do 15 more minutes of suicidal and then I'll try to make a deal to get video games back." Yes, he wants what he wants-- like most 13-year-olds and also like a kid who is relatively immature with respect to learning to identify, control and present his emotions. But in the moment, he fully feels what he does. That's the point: If you have abnormally strong emotions and have never been taught the art of self-soothing (and by the way, that's harder if you have unusually intense emotions), then you are dragged around by them. So manipulated parents and also kid are on the same side with respect to who or what is doing the manipulating. This is just what it looks like when you are seeing this problem unsolved at 13 as opposed to 2 or 3.
    The armchair saddler
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    What's a RAD kid?

    .
    A child with reactive attachment disorder.

    PD should not be diagnosed in children--too many other possibilities. emotional disregulation is still primary in in adults who look either borderline PD or bipolar. And actually many clinicians perceive some domestically violent men as borderline - not at all the domain of women only. And medication can be HUGELY helpful, for a bipolar individual its vital-otherwise like trying to fix diabetes or a broken leg with counseling! Obviously counseling is recommended in addition, but having seen folks on locked psych wards before and after meds, no more argument for me! Luckily, a PD diagnosis is not really a kiss of death, but obviously takes more sustained work and awareness, and a lot of folks (not all obviously) with PDs do not necessariliy find the symptoms distressing (so unlikely to change). But things like dialectical behavioral therapy have had encouraging results with borderline and other folks struggling with managing their emotions.


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  4. #24

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    Sorry, I am on my phone and this might not come across as I have intended,

    But I would like to thank CDE for their questions, and yes, I also agree with EqT.

    I have a lot of questions as well. The article is in the view point of the mother. Okay. But for a broader picture, I'd like to know several of the view points, Instead of taking what one person says
    absolute truth.


    Also, define mentally ill. Define normal. What are people supposed to be? Are we to be determined by our culture? Our nations??

    I also HATE. Big pharma. Yeah, they do have a place in society, but not as big a one as there is now. I can't remember, but i think it was GSK that wanted psychotropic drugs to be as popular as bubble gum.

    Going to add in quickly that A LOT if illness can be fixed by diet. No joke.

    So flame away if you so desire, I'll try to expand later
    “We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.”
    Kurt Vonnegut, Mother Night


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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilitiger2 View Post
    A child with reactive attachment disorder.

    PD should not be diagnosed in children--too many other possibilities. emotional disregulation is still primary in in adults who look either borderline PD or bipolar. And actually many clinicians perceive some domestically violent men as borderline - not at all the domain of women only. And medication can be HUGELY helpful, for a bipolar individual its vital-otherwise like trying to fix diabetes or a broken leg with counseling! Obviously counseling is recommended in addition, but having seen folks on locked psych wards before and after meds, no more argument for me! Luckily, a PD diagnosis is not really a kiss of death, but obviously takes more sustained work and awareness, and a lot of folks (not all obviously) with PDs do not necessariliy find the symptoms distressing (so unlikely to change). But things like dialectical behavioral therapy have had encouraging results with borderline and other folks struggling with managing their emotions.
    Thanks for the definition.

    I do think we ought to be circumspect with respect to applying adult diagnoses to children (and, FWIW to medicating them).

    With respect to Personality Disorders, you'd really like to hold off on granting someone a fixed personality if the next move would be to describe that as pathological. But does that mean that the consequences are that we look for organic causes of bad or aberrant behavior or moods? Those things seem "fixed" enough that we medicate for them.... even in young whippersnappers.
    The armchair saddler
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  6. #26
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    Well I appreciate how complicated things are for kids! you are so right!! And I agree about overmedicating kids. I just I would just add that for some (not all by any means), medication means they can function, they can have friends, they can complete assignments and feel good about themselves. Mental illness can result in a lot of social isolation (as with adults), so, in those cases (not all and not without a lot of consideration) I am in favor!

    For the kid described in the original post, I would bet he has medsin his future as he is NOT functioning at all like this. He may be already taking them, but clearly, whatever he is doing, it is NOT enough and mom really, really needs help.MAYDAY!!!


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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by callmegold View Post
    I think it would be fair to count psychopath as mentally ill. If we're counting those outside of the normal and unable to function within society without assistance...definitely counts.
    How do you treat someone who is a psychopath?

    I don't equate being evil to being mentally ill. Imo there is a difference.


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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    How do you treat someone who is a psychopath?
    Well I know how I would treat them, but I don't know the clinical answer. That was more for the purpose of the conversation, I guess.

    But back to the article, if the mother has taught the younger kids a plan where the safety zone is outside the house, I think it's pretty safe to say we don't have the whole story. And I that leads me to think this isn't a "he wasn't spanked enough" situation.


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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    How do you treat someone who is a psychopath?

    I don't equate being evil to being mentally ill. Imo there is a difference.
    As I pointed out in similar thread, Science does not recognize "evil," and I'm very sorry to burst your bubble on that. What you call "evil" is some sort of disorder within a person, that needs to be recognized and treated.

    By simply assuming that the child needs to be spanked and brought to church, you are ignoring the real issues, the need to get those issues identified and treated, and potentially stop any more tragedies.


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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoForAGallop View Post
    As I pointed out in similar thread, Science does not recognize "evil," and I'm very sorry to burst your bubble on that. What you call "evil" is some sort of disorder within a person, that needs to be recognized and treated.

    By simply assuming that the child needs to be spanked and brought to church, you are ignoring the real issues, the need to get those issues identified and treated, and potentially stop any more tragedies.
    Oh my, aren't you self-righteous. Inaccurate too.

    I have a background in science and understand it very well. Not everything can be quantified by science, and not everything is treatable. How do you treat someone who doesn't care about other people? Current treatments can't even begin to touch it.

    Also, I'm not a churchgoer and didn't say the kid just needed a spanking. Can't you people read??


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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by callmegold View Post
    Well I know how I would treat them, but I don't know the clinical answer. That was more for the purpose of the conversation, I guess.

    But back to the article, if the mother has taught the younger kids a plan where the safety zone is outside the house, I think it's pretty safe to say we don't have the whole story. And I that leads me to think this isn't a "he wasn't spanked enough" situation.
    He pulled a knife on his mom and tried to punch her multiple times in the car. What else do we need to know?

    If he had some respect for his mom her job would be infinitely easier.

    And lastly, having a mental illness isn't a free card to do whatever, not if you're hurting other people. That's part of what makes living with mental illness so hard.


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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    On the "spoiled" and "master manipulator" issues.

    I don't think EqT's discussion of spanking in her post meant much more than an Off The Record comment from a pediatrician about a stop-gap measure that was part of raising her Asperger's son. It was not presented as a cure. It was a "Look, Asperger's or not, your life and his life is going to be a whole lot better if you can teach him boundaries. If this kid takes spanking to just to that bit of work, do what you have to do."

    Kiddo as master manipulator? Yes and no. I can promise you that *he* doesn't see it that way, as in "I'll do 15 more minutes of suicidal and then I'll try to make a deal to get video games back." Yes, he wants what he wants-- like most 13-year-olds and also like a kid who is relatively immature with respect to learning to identify, control and present his emotions. But in the moment, he fully feels what he does. That's the point: If you have abnormally strong emotions and have never been taught the art of self-soothing (and by the way, that's harder if you have unusually intense emotions), then you are dragged around by them. So manipulated parents and also kid are on the same side with respect to who or what is doing the manipulating. This is just what it looks like when you are seeing this problem unsolved at 13 as opposed to 2 or 3.
    That is exactly right and was my point. He HAD to learn boundaries, he HAD to learn to self soothe, he has extremely strong emotions and sensitivities. Along with judicious spankings, he was in therapy and will probably be again, *we* had to learn how to teach him to interact with other humans (he does not inherently read social cues), we had to meet with teachers and counselors routinely (the beginning of every school year means a sit down with every teacher, these last two years that meant 8 conferences)..

    he did do violent things when he was younger, he had violent tendencies from the get go. Combine that with not reading social cues and not having natural empathy for other living things, it wasnt hard to see where it could be heading.

    I think the thing that jumps out at me in the blog is that the mom seems to feel its all about a mental illness and the world at large, not her, is going to have to provide the boundaries for her son. If my son had not been quasi-diagnosed (it was very loose, he was four) And then dealt with accordingly, I very much see/believe he could have been the child she is speaking of. And who knows, maybe somewhere down the road I will be eating my words.

    It is a hard thing, to have a baby and think you know what is going to happen/who is going to show up. I was not expecting the child I got. Regardless of who he was though, it was clearly imperative that he learn to get along in society ASAP. I see a disregard for that in the current parenting model. Every child is special, every child is an individual, yes... But we are all part of a whole and honestly, most kids are not going to be Albert Einstein. The goal was to help him become a happy, productive member of society. The kids he goes to school with, who have the same issues and were, for lack of better terms, humored - are not doing well. Let me tell you... There were times it was HARD. People often thought we were abusive (no warnings for him on certain things) and would make a point to try to tell us how to handle him. His teachers, however, were grateful. He was a handful but they knew we had their back.

    Anyway, I DO think mental health is a big issue in this country and I DO think we need to look harder at it. But I am not so sure, reading that blog post, having raised my son - that the issue there is simply a mental health issue. Of course, it probably is now
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by grayarabpony View Post
    He pulled a knife on his mom and tried to punch her multiple times in the car. What else do we need to know?

    If he had some respect for his mom her job would be infinitely easier.

    And lastly, having a mental illness isn't a free card to do whatever, not if you're hurting other people. That's part of what makes living with mental illness so hard.
    Thanks for saying a lot of what I was trying to say. I dont think all his behaviour can be explained away with a diagnosis.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
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    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.


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  14. #34
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    I would also like to add that it is very scary and hard to face up to your child having a serious behaviour problem that could end up in a tragic ending. Mr. EqT has never, in all honesty, accepted it.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.


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  15. #35
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    EqT I agree wholeheartedly. I was struck by some of the same things in that blog post. A kid doesn't IMO wake up one day and call their parent a Bitch, that is a long time in the making.

    We have run the gamut with M and probably always will. We have and always will work really hard to instill appropriate coping skills, social skills, etc. She is brilliant but lags greatly in other areas. We have the support of the ped and a psychologist but at the end of the day, it is our responsibility. And yes it can be exhausting and draining, but this is what parenting is...

    I do think boys vs girls are different, in that I don't worry so much about violence as things like addiction or teen pregnancy. My goal is to give her the tools she lacks innately so that she does not end up a statistic.

    Even with my uncle, whom I have mentioned a few times this weekend... he was a paranoid schizophrenic and also had a chromosomal abnormality so faced learning disabilities and such his entire life. He went to mainstream school, he knew how to converse politely, he held a part-time job. He took the garbage out, shoveled the driveway, said hello to my kids and knew what was ok to do and what was not. It didn't come natural, but my grandma taught him. Were there times he was totally off the rails? Yes. And she sought out the help and he was institutionalized often. But at the end of the day she always saw that he had the skills he needed even if illness sometimes overran them.

    I guess what has struck me, now that M is in school and I see other parents with kids who face challenges. A lot will be sat there playing on their phone while their kid with XYZ Diagnosis is running around out of control, acting wildly inappropriate, or whatever and they look up and say "Oh, well, he has XYZ, it's 6pm, and his meds are wearing off." Um, ok. This happened TWICE on Friday night at a school function, with two different sets of kids/parents.

    When I feel like this runs deeper than gun control, and is a social/cultural problem, I think it starts at home, with parents and family dynamics. I don't know how you change things there.

    I'm hardly a model parent and I struggle every day. M requires a unique blend of parenting technique and I've had people on the outside criticize me for being too hard, or too soft... but what you see in one snippet does not the story tell, there are "teaching moments" that occur all day long that add up to a sum of what I am trying to achieve.

    I dunno, I think horse people make good parents because a lot of us understand boundaries... what is important, what to let slide... when a CTJ moment is necessary and when to let go.
    Last edited by FlashGordon; Dec. 16, 2012 at 06:42 PM. Reason: grammar
    We couldn't all be cowboys, so some of us are clowns.


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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post

    "I managed to get the knife from Michael, then methodically collected all the sharp objects in the house into a single Tupperware container that now travels with me."

    What can we do, as a country and as individual citizens to fix this? Clearly our mental health system is broken.
    If I was "Adam Lanza's mother" and provided that Adam Lanza did in fact display some kind of concerning behavior prior to Friday, one of my priorities might be not keeping a crapload of guns in the house in which my troubled son lived. Just on the "individual citizen" front.


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  17. #37
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    Fascinating discussion, thanks.



  18. #38
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    Posted by EqTrainer
    blaming the health system when you have not parented the child you have - not the one you wish you had - or parented the way you want to no matter what kid you got dealt - doesnt cut it for me. When my son was diagnosed I wanted to pretend it wasnt so. My husband did pretend, and that is another story. It was NO FUN. It was NOTHING like I thought having a chlld would be like. In fact, I almost opted out of having LMEqT because of it, it was all encompassing for so long. His pediatrician, incidentally, advised me to not have another baby until he was at least three. I took her advice.
    My hat is off to you. Good for you for successfully rising to the challenge. But you have summed up exactly why I do not have children.

    I knew that I was most emphatically NOT up to that kind of challenge. But if the birth lottery doesn't give you what you wanted, there's no where to send them back to for credit, is there?

    I think I could have successfully raised an uncomplicated happy child who liked animals. Had I had any other kind I'd have been a miserable parent. My mama was bi-polar, and her daddy was bi-polar, and while they were both good people with many talents, I never had any patience for any of their carrying-on. So I opted out of the child lottery.

    I guess this is an incredibly un-PC thing to say, but I often think the world would be a better place if more people realistically assessed their parenting limitations before having children.


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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDE Driver View Post
    This is an honest question, please don't scream at me... but why are SO many boys/young men mentally ill? Was it always this way and it just wasn't identified? Are humans that flawed that so many of us are mentally ill?

    Truly, this is a frightening concept to me.
    I don't think anyone really addressed this and that has been my main question all weekend. Why is this so much more prevalent now?
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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' View Post
    But if the birth lottery doesn't give you what you wanted, there's no where to send them back to for credit, is there?
    No, you can't pick your kid... you live with the hand you are dealt. But I think there is a lot to say when it comes to nature vs. nurture. My daughter is adopted and we knew a fair amount about her birth mom, nothing about her birth father. She is the carbon copy of her birth mom, in looks and personality. I think (hope?) we will be able to avoid the challenges her birth mom has faced via parenting, environment, etc.

    (As an aside: She is a challenging child but such a joy, too-- my life would have maybe been easier without her but it would be a hell of a lot emptier. She is amazing and will do great things, one day, I am certain of that.)

    I think when you run into trouble is with children who are dealing with issues via genetics (nature) and then they are further influenced by their environment, family situation, parenting (nurture.) The stars align and you end up with a kid who becomes an adult that has some serious problems.

    On the flipside I think there are a TON of people out there who face challenges, and have supportive families, parents, medical professionals helping them along, and they go on to be totally normal, functional, successful members of society.
    We couldn't all be cowboys, so some of us are clowns.


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