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  1. #61
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    This article that ran in the New York Times a while back is a frightening, close look at the challenges of parenting a difficult to dangerous child. It also looks at schools for those kids. Really a good, if scary, read.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/ma...pagewanted=all

    Each child's situation is different and it's hard to generalize what one parent should do. but I feel for parents who are dealing with mentally ill-to-dangerous kids. It's a classic nature vs nurture debate. I don't know the answer.


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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by CiegoStar View Post
    Each child's situation is different and it's hard to generalize what one parent should do. but I feel for parents who are dealing with mentally ill-to-dangerous kids. It's a classic nature vs nurture debate. I don't know the answer.
    It is, and an interesting debate at that.

    Every situation has so many variables I don't think there is one single model that is going to work for everyone.

    Access to health care, resources and support are key. It's shocking the expense that comes with mental health resources, if you don't have insurance, or insurance doesn't cover it. Not to mention, a lot of people just don't know where to turn or who to talk to. I know for kids, going through a school district is often one avenue, but that can present so many challenges also and take SO freaking long. For our own daughter, we fast-tracked it by going private, but christ was that expensive.

    The system is hard to navigate, and it has to be scary for a parent who is legitimately afraid of their kid.

    It's really kind of like horses. You have to know which ones you can push, which will snap if you do, which need an out-of-the-box approach, etc.
    We couldn't all be cowboys, so some of us are clowns.


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  3. #63
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    ^ I understand what you are saying. I in agreement with FG tho - calling his mother Bitch didnt just pop up over night. Honestly, if any of my kids called me a bitch I would be reaching further into my bag of tricks than taking their electronics away for the day. That is *nothing*. He started with purposefully wearing clothes he knew he could not wear to school. Does she confront that? No. Since it escalated into what it did, I think it is safe to say her method is not working. And here is the thing: if I played dumb to my sons true behaviours and motivations, I think he would escalate. Because part of him needs me to make sense out of the chaotic world for him by saying look, you know better, and here is the line.

    I think I read something different into it. I read that she is not going to set boundaries, she is scared of her child and she has turned the boundary setting over to the police, the school and the hospital. Well, the police are for dealing with criminals, the school is for educating children and the hospital is for treating sick people. NOT PARENTING. I left this out of both of my other posts but frankly.. It really bothers me, when people do this. At school, the same kids whose parents refuse to control them take up so much of the teachers time and it is not teaching, its parenting. My kids talk about this. There is a little girl in LMEqTs class who is extremely disruptive and her teacher told me during their conferences that she cannot get thru to the parents that there needs to be consequences for the bad behaviour, that she is not there to parent their child. While the police are dealing with her child, They could and should be dealing with crime instead. When the hospital deals with her kid (who managed to calm himself in the ER - hmm, when faced with consequences like lockdown? ) In a busy ER, people with serious physical and true mental illness needs may have to be triaged behind him. Her child has not been diagnosed with a mental illness, not for lack of trying, by her own admission. So is he mentally ill? Or is he acting out what he knows to do? Is he looking for boundaries and this is the way he finds them ? It certainly sounds like that is exactly what happens. I dont know if he is mentally ill or not. Like FG, I know people whose kids are indeed mentally ill and there are expectations that are met, its not a free ticket to bad behaviour, as GAP was trying to explain.

    I am the bottom line to my children. It would never occur to me, with the exception of suicidal behaviour (and I am not entirely sure her example is suicidal behaviour, is a threat the same? I dont know, I do know a child who used it as her most effective tool to get what she wanted) to have someone else set their boundaries... Their teachers, no, the police, no, the hospital, no.

    I do feel for her because no, I dont know, and she certainly does not seem like a happy camper. Perhaps she has devoted herself to parenting him and it has been an epic fail. My suspicion is that she got dealt the wrong card for her parenting style and she cannot or will not adapt to her reality and instead has spent her energy looking for a medical answer. For the life of me, I cannot imagine what type of mental illness services she is imagining can help her with him. Some type of drop off where they put the kid in a straight jacket until he calms down, or better yet, they pick him up? I dont think anyone can provide a boundary service for her kid, except those forced by law to do so and IMO she is exploiting them.

    One more thing. She has four kids. Now I know its too late to go back in time and surely she didnt have three more (is he the oldest?) knowing what she was dealing with but.. Damn. Four kids is a lot of kids to parent. Even if you can afford them, how much time can you really spend with each one when you have four? I really had a hard time convincing myself to have LMEqT. Not only because of how time consuming my son was, but because I was sincerely concerned about what type of brother he would be. I dont see how she can deal with this child and take care of the other three. How damaged are they from this?

    Oops, really... One more thing! This blog is all over FB because when you goggle the name, it pops up. Someone mentioned on FB how odd it is that someone would want their child associated with that name.. How sensationalized the blog post is , and how if you read her other posts it is really not like the others. So... Maybe we have all been set up by a very clever blogger to debate her fiction!
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
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    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.


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  4. #64
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    Yeah I dunno, the blog post bothered me on a lot of levels. One of them being that it did seem sensationalized. Another that as we have said before in this thread, that sort of disrespect doesn't happen over night. We have no background to know where the kid is the kind described in the article supplied by CS, or whether he is a kid who has a lack of structure/boundaries.

    I don't meant to have my judgey-pants on, I guess I am just wholly surprised by parents and family dynamics lately. I see it all the time at my daughter's school. I can't even recount the number of bizarre experiences I have had or observed in the last year. It's disheartening and troubling.

    I know it sounds dumb but I think having horses and animals my whole life, I understood to a larger degree the responsibility that comes with having a living breathing being as a part of your life. Maybe that is why so many horse people choose NOT to have children. Too many people are oblivious to the commitment that comes with kids... and then they expect everyone else except themselves to parent them.

    This is just a hot button in my life lately, I suppose, for a lot of reasons... so apologies for rambling on about this today.
    We couldn't all be cowboys, so some of us are clowns.


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  5. #65
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    I do have compassion for her, moreso for her child and his siblings. But compassion means empathy for the suffering of others, not an all encompassing acceptance of everything people say and do. Compassion is an interesting subject, for another thread maybe?
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
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    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.


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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashGordon View Post
    Yeah I dunno, the blog post bothered me on a lot of levels. One of them being that it did seem sensationalized. Another that as we have said before in this thread, that sort of disrespect doesn't happen over night. We have no background to know where the kid is the kind described in the article supplied by CS, or whether he is a kid who has a lack of structure/boundaries.

    I don't meant to have my judgey-pants on, I guess I am just wholly surprised by parents and family dynamics lately. I see it all the time at my daughter's school. I can't even recount the number of bizarre experiences I have had or observed in the last year. It's disheartening and troubling.

    I know it sounds dumb but I think having horses and animals my whole life, I understood to a larger degree the responsibility that comes with having a living breathing being as a part of your life. Maybe that is why so many horse people choose NOT to have children. Too many people are oblivious to the commitment that comes with kids... and then they expect everyone else except themselves to parent them.

    This is just a hot button in my life lately, I suppose, for a lot of reasons... so apologies for rambling on about this today.

    I dont think it sounds dumb at all.

    I do think that in light of fridays horrible events, people are scared and mental health, deservedly so, is a hot topic. Her blog post initially hits all the right buttons, until you read it critically and ignore the shock value of it. Then it is disturbing in a different way, for many reasons.
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.


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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by CiegoStar View Post
    This article that ran in the New York Times a while back is a frightening, close look at the challenges of parenting a difficult to dangerous child. It also looks at schools for those kids. Really a good, if scary, read.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/ma...pagewanted=all

    Each child's situation is different and it's hard to generalize what one parent should do. but I feel for parents who are dealing with mentally ill-to-dangerous kids. It's a classic nature vs nurture debate. I don't know the answer.

    Wow. Very interesting, especially the "camp" studies and how the kids change behavior. Reading about "L" I was reminded of that movie Village of The Damned where the kids understand each other so well and manipulate the adults with threats of violence. OK so they were also aliens and could read minds but still......
    HaHA! Made-est Thou Look!



  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by CiegoStar View Post
    This article that ran in the New York Times a while back is a frightening, close look at the challenges of parenting a difficult to dangerous child. It also looks at schools for those kids. Really a good, if scary, read.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/ma...pagewanted=all

    Each child's situation is different and it's hard to generalize what one parent should do. but I feel for parents who are dealing with mentally ill-to-dangerous kids. It's a classic nature vs nurture debate. I don't know the answer.

    Yes, read Deborah Spungen's book "I Don't Want to Live This Life". It is about her daughter Nancy, who was Sid Vicious's (Sex Pistols) girlfriend. What is a parent to do?


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  9. #69
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    Let's bring back "insane asylums". There was a reason for them before and there is most definitly a reason for them now. You cannot reason with insane, mentally ill people. They need to be protected from themselves and we need to be protected from them. Put them in institutions for the greater good.


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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dispatcher View Post
    Let's bring back "insane asylums". There was a reason for them before and there is most definitly a reason for them now. You cannot reason with insane, mentally ill people. They need to be protected from themselves and we need to be protected from them. Put them in institutions for the greater good.
    Maybe there is a benefit to asylums for the very ill, but why would you talk about another person like that? "For the greater good"? Maybe that's why so many people with mental illnesses don't seek out treatment; because they're afraid of the stigma that goes with it.
    I've heard there's more to life than an FEI tent and hotel rooms, so I'm trying it.


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  11. #71
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    That blog post is being passed around everywhere.

    After last Friday my sympathy for these people is dried up. It made me ill to read that mother saying she needs help (she does) and the only way she can get it is to lock up her kid and she won't "because he doesn't belong in jail." He's extremely violent and has harmed her repeatedly. Nope, after Newtown I have zero sympathy for her refusing to protect her other children and her neighbors from him. Her kid has physically assaulted her repeatedly. He repeatedly tells her he's going to kill her. There are already probation officers involved. She has TWO other tiny children (7 and 9) who are literally running for their lives from big brother - she doesn't even have to tell them to flee their own home they do it without being told. She is a horrible mother - NOT because she has a mentally ill child, but because she refuses to protect herself and her other two children from him.

    She admits he's the next Adam Lanza but it would be wrong to lock him up. !!!!!!!!!! Tough ***t. He's a violent, deranged person. I don't give a hoot that he's a "genius," and after last Friday I don't give a good god**** that "he loves Harry Potter and cuddly animals."


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  12. #72
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    Having mental illness on my monther's side of the family is one of the big factors in why I never wanted to have kids. Some bloodlines should not continue. I got lucky and got pretty much everything from my dad's side, which sadly includes the famous crawling metabolism But I will take having to struggle with staying in shape over having mental illness. My mother has problems, her son has problems (my half sibling) ALL of my mother's siblings have mental illness. There was no reason for me to take the gamble even IF I had ever wanted kids. I think if more people were willing to say that it would be best if they didn't reproduce then it might be a better world.

    I sadly am one who agrees that there was a reason and need for insane asylms


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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by GingerJumper View Post
    Maybe there is a benefit to asylums for the very ill, but why would you talk about another person like that? "For the greater good"? Maybe that's why so many people with mental illnesses don't seek out treatment; because they're afraid of the stigma that goes with it.
    Because we all need protection. The insane need protection from themselves. Those who are not insane need protection from those who are.

    I'm not talking about personality quirks that some call "mental illness". I'm talking about the seriously deranged humans.

    If one is afraid of the stigma that goes with treatment, then they may not be suffering from true mental illness


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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by GingerJumper View Post
    Maybe there is a benefit to asylums for the very ill, but why would you talk about another person like that? "For the greater good"? Maybe that's why so many people with mental illnesses don't seek out treatment; because they're afraid of the stigma that goes with it.
    They are afraid of the stigma that would get them committed With Good Reason!

    You don't have to do a lot of googling to discover the horrible history that our country (like most) has with institutionalizing the mentally ill. We consider caging those members of society better than euthanasia. Google around and see if you agree.
    The armchair saddler
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  15. #75
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    If you think the jail system will help prevent that kid from becoming a Lanza, you're dead wrong.

    The corrections industry is a joke. Sure, it might protect us for a few years, but you can't lock up a minor forever...then they are out at 18 with a clean record.

    I don't think that she's saying that she doesn't want her son in jail because poor pookie would be mistreated. I think she's saying it because she knows it won't help and could make it worse.


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  16. #76
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    Don't care. I care about keeping him from harming little kids. He's extremely violent now. She's already admitted he's capable of murdering tiny children. You can't get worse than that.

    As tragic as it is that he's like that and that she's his mother, it's reality time folks. She KNOWS you'd better "watch out" as far as he's concerned. So pookie needs to be locked up somewhere. If not in a mental institution, then I vote for jail. What about 20 tiny 6 yo children doesn't she get? I'll vote to protect her local elementary school every single time over keeping this guy out of jail.


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  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anne FS View Post
    That blog post is being passed around everywhere.

    After last Friday my sympathy for these people is dried up. It made me ill to read that mother saying she needs help (she does) and the only way she can get it is to lock up her kid and she won't "because he doesn't belong in jail." He's extremely violent and has harmed her repeatedly. Nope, after Newtown I have zero sympathy for her refusing to protect her other children and her neighbors from him. Her kid has physically assaulted her repeatedly. He repeatedly tells her he's going to kill her. There are already probation officers involved. She has TWO other tiny children (7 and 9) who are literally running for their lives from big brother - she doesn't even have to tell them to flee their own home they do it without being told. She is a horrible mother - NOT because she has a mentally ill child, but because she refuses to protect herself and her other two children from him.

    She admits he's the next Adam Lanza but it would be wrong to lock him up. !!!!!!!!!! Tough ***t. He's a violent, deranged person. I don't give a hoot that he's a "genius," and after last Friday I don't give a good god**** that "he loves Harry Potter and cuddly animals."
    FWIW, I don't think that the mom in that article talks about the good sides of her kid and thinks that he doesn't "belong" in jail, merely because she's his mother.

    It's that jail does buggar all improve the life, behavior, happiness or social value of the person who cannot reform their behavior. It may feel good to use jails to merely contain or punish.... but man, that's expensive! Not interested in financing other people's taste for revenge.

    The talk about kiddo liking Harry Potter and animals while he's also really tough to handle in other respects is about the "WTF? How does the inside of his mind work?" so that anyone can figure out a way to reform his life and behavior.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


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  18. #78
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    I understand all that. But we've learned that time is of the essence. While people are waiting to figure it out, more innocent people will be murdered and that's unacceptable. Frankly I don't believe that this kid's life is ever going to be reformed. He's not going to magically get better even with treatment, and we've all seen what psychiatric drugs do. I understand her cry for help and I hope she gets it. But until that day comes, if it ever does, I would put all my effort into making absolutely positively perfectly sure that he simply can't get anywhere near other children or even other adults. The day that mother forgets her Tupperware container is bound to happen sooner or later and I don't want to be reading another crazy murderer news report.


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  19. #79
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    Yes.. But my husband always brought up my sons positive aspects as a defense against needing further action. Its a part of being a parent :/ you want to see the best in them and it is so hurtful, in every way, when you have to confront what is really going on and its not nice

    BTW one of my friends (who knows us personally) has been lurking on this thread and she said I have painted my son out to be a monster. I dont think I have, but just in case I have - let me just say he has turned out, so far! Pretty awesome. I am particularly proud that he defends other kids who are "diferent" in a nonviolent, peace making way. He is actually quite adept at it. Whoddathunkit?
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
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    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.


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  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anne FS View Post
    Don't care. I care about keeping him from harming little kids. He's extremely violent now. She's already admitted he's capable of murdering tiny children. You can't get worse than that.

    As tragic as it is that he's like that and that she's his mother, it's reality time folks. She KNOWS you'd better "watch out" as far as he's concerned. So pookie needs to be locked up somewhere. If not in a mental institution, then I vote for jail. What about 20 tiny 6 yo children doesn't she get? I'll vote to protect her local elementary school every single time over keeping this guy out of jail.
    So what do you suggest? I get that you're mad, but I can't tell what you'd have the mom do. Perhaps you mean commit her child to a state-run mental institution for life? Can one still do that?
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


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