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  1. #81
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    Please don't attack the source of this article but rather READ what was written. It makes so much sense...and the slippery slope is real. I thought it was pretty relevant to this discussion and I agree 100% with the article and how it will likely unfold.

    http://www.thedailysheeple.com/heres...be-done_112012


    1 members found this post helpful.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by BasqueMom View Post
    Six-shooter revolvers were the handgun of the day...six shots, then you had to reload, not a quick process. The first repeating rifles required flipping the trigger
    guard forward and back to put a new bullet in the chamber.

    Newer rifles have clips, ranging from maybe 6 up to 30 although there are some larger. Some have a tube along the barrel in which the shells go--mine holds 15 bullets Clips are used in the the semi-auto handgun. Most purse, pocket semi-autos are very small, lower caliber and the clip holds maybe six or seven. Most holsters for these have a spot for an extra clip. Dropping an empty clip and inserting a loaded one takes just a few seconds, versus reloading a revolver where you have to put a bullet in each "slot" of the barrel.
    Good post, but let me add a few clarifications.

    Double action revolvers, which are very fast to reload if you know how, have been around since the 1890s.

    Semi automatic handguns have been around for just about that long. With the first commercially successful models sold by Colt and Savage here, and Luger, Walther and Mauser in Europe in the first decade of the 20th century.

    High capacity semi automatic handguns have been around since at least the 1930s when FN of Belgium unveiled the Model of 1935 with a 15 round magazine.

    Semi automatic hunting rifles also date back to the first few decades of the 20th century with Remington offering the first commercially successful ones.

    Semi and fully automatic rifles with detachable magazines date back to the teens and 20s.

    None of what we have today is any deadlier than what existed 80 to 100 years ago.


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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream Believer View Post
    Please don't attack the source of this article but rather READ what was written. It makes so much sense...and the slippery slope is real. I thought it was pretty relevant to this discussion and I agree 100% with the article and how it will likely unfold.

    http://www.thedailysheeple.com/heres...be-done_112012
    I cannot read anything seriously that brings Obama into how our freedom is threatened. The worst damage was all done under GWB's watch.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  4. #84
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    Just as an aside, I heard (on CNN I think) that the long gun was recovered in his car. He used the handguns in the assault.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perfect Pony View Post
    I cannot read anything seriously that brings Obama into how our freedom is threatened. The worst damage was all done under GWB's watch.
    And what has Obama done to undo any of it? Not a damned thing. Because he likes all that power too.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by caballero View Post
    And what has Obama done to undo any of it? Not a damned thing. Because he likes all that power too.
    I am not defending anyone, I am just pointing out I don't have any respect for someone's opinion that writes such obviously partisan BS. We had 8 years of GWB taking away our "freedoms" in the name of security, passing some of the farthest reaching regulations, while his cronies made billions via 2 wars and a "war on terror". Where is the outrage about all that? If Obama is such a threat, much of it is on the back of regulation originally put forth by the republicans over nearly a decade.


    7 members found this post helpful.

  7. #87

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    Here's my thing -- we've listened to the 2nd amendment arguments for all this time and how is that working for us?

    Are we just willing to accept that, here in America, every so often, our children are slaughtered at school. And, like traffic accidents on the highways, it's just one of those things you have to learn to live with?

    Seriously? Is that what people are saying?

    If not, then give me a real strategy that does not involve some sort of gun regulation.

    Telling me that we need to bring God back into the schools is not a real strategy. We cannot MAKE people believe in God, or honor Him in their hearts. So, don't tell me that's what we need to do.

    Don't tell me we need to arm everybody -- men, women and children. School teachers. Kindergarteners. Everybody carries weapons everywhere, fully loaded and at-the-ready to shoot "the bad guys" at all times. That is not acceptable to me.

    So tell me. What do you think we should do?

    I cannot imagine any other such calamity -- from 9-11 to attempted shoe-bombs, to Oklahoma City, to the Joplin tornado, to earthquakes -- where our response is -- well, we should all pray more.

    So -- give me your strategy, the one that makes SOME sense, calls for SOME change (not changing people's hearts, because we can't do it!), and addresses this problem in some REAL way.

    When you do that -- then I'll listen. I really will.

    Profanity and partisan hatred does not count as a strategy, either.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perfect Pony View Post
    I cannot read anything seriously that brings Obama into how our freedom is threatened. The worst damage was all done under GWB's watch.
    Gee and here I thought being forced to buy health care was an attack on my freedom too...who knew??? That article wasn't put up to attack Obama but to discuss the slippery slope of gun control. Sorry if it offends your sensibilities but I honestly don't care. Hopefully more open minded people than you will at least be willing to read another POV.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  9. #89
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    Here is one alternative...back to my earlier post about a citizen's militia of sorts.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nf1OgV449g

    I have visited Switzerland and best I can tell that video is accurate. My host had the same type of gun and also was expected to shoot it annually and serve in his country's militia. The Swiss are a proud and independent people...like American's used to be. Truly, I hardly expect America to adopt a similar approach and force everyone to own a submachine gun but here is a great example of where MORE guns equal LESS violence.


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  10. #90
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    Ponderings:
    So it's mostly young men who commit these acts. With guns and all of the Freudian aspects of guns. For a brief moment, they are all powerful. Do they live in a society that has made them feel powerless to affect their lives in any other way? Perhaps it's the same mindset that suicide bombers have.

    Chemicals: We live in a world of plastics that leach chemicals into our food and water, including synthetic estrogens. Does that have an effect? In fact, we live in a world of chemicals in the environment, and we have little or no idea how each and every one affects behavior.

    We have made recreational drug use illegal. From cigarettes to alcohol to "real drugs" we have made stress relieving self medication difficult to impossible, but certainly not acceptable.

    And as JER pointed out, the guns that are more than one shot are really weapons of mass destruction. And in the US they are widely available.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #91

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    So, Daydream Believer -- your strategy is to arm everyone with a submachine gun? Did I get that right? Just want to be sure.

    Your solution is everybody gets a submachine gun?


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  12. #92
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    This morning, on the CBC, Sunday Edition host Mike Enright led off the program with a talk about the shootings and gun culture in the US. I highly, highly recommend it, both for the content as well as the perspective of a non-American. A well-spent 3 minutes of your time today.

    Click on the first segment: Gun culture in the US won't go away


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  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by King's Ransom View Post
    So, Daydream Believer -- your strategy is to arm everyone with a submachine gun? Did I get that right? Just want to be sure.

    Your solution is everybody gets a submachine gun?
    If you had actually read my post you would see that I did not suggest that at all. Why not READ for comprehension before spouting off and looking like a nitwit?


    2 members found this post helpful.

  14. #94

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    Just asking. What is your proposal then? Just "more guns" though not necessarily machine guns for everyone?

    I'm sorry, you seem vague.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by King's Ransom View Post
    Here's my thing -- we've listened to the 2nd amendment arguments for all this time and how is that working for us?

    Are we just willing to accept that, here in America, every so often, our children are slaughtered at school. And, like traffic accidents on the highways, it's just one of those things you have to learn to live with?

    Seriously? Is that what people are saying?

    If not, then give me a real strategy that does not involve some sort of gun regulation.

    Telling me that we need to bring God back into the schools is not a real strategy. We cannot MAKE people believe in God, or honor Him in their hearts. So, don't tell me that's what we need to do.

    Don't tell me we need to arm everybody -- men, women and children. School teachers. Kindergarteners. Everybody carries weapons everywhere, fully loaded and at-the-ready to shoot "the bad guys" at all times. That is not acceptable to me.

    So tell me. What do you think we should do?

    I cannot imagine any other such calamity -- from 9-11 to attempted shoe-bombs, to Oklahoma City, to the Joplin tornado, to earthquakes -- where our response is -- well, we should all pray more.

    So -- give me your strategy, the one that makes SOME sense, calls for SOME change (not changing people's hearts, because we can't do it!), and addresses this problem in some REAL way.

    When you do that -- then I'll listen. I really will.

    Profanity and partisan hatred does not count as a strategy, either.
    Are you serious?
    Someone brought up statistics that more kids drown in swimming pools by far than are shot in cases as this.
    Do we want to ban swimming also?

    We need to help parents with disturbed kids and once they become adults confine and medicate them.

    Focus on what really happened, that a crazy fellow killed as many as he could and work on that, not bring up the politics of ban guns.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  16. #96

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    Bluey, that is a strategy worth discussing.

    Now, mind you, when kids die in swimming pools, we DO start talking about how to make them safer. We talk about life guards, fences, pool depth, etc. we don't just say we should all pray more. Same with cars. We try to make them safer, and in fact they are safer.

    We have a problem. We need to discuss solutions. Rationally. Not every solution will be a 100% solution. But if we can make progress, then that is something.

    Where do we start with mental health solutions? Do we have $$ in the federal budget to start?


    4 members found this post helpful.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by King's Ransom View Post
    Bluey, that is a strategy worth discussing.

    Now, mind you, when kids die in swimming pools, we DO start talking about how to make them safer. We talk about life guards, fences, pool depth, etc. we don't just say we should all pray more. Same with cars. We try to make them safer, and in fact they are safer.

    We have a problem. We need to discuss solutions. Rationally. Not every solution will be a 100% solution. But if we can make progress, then that is something.

    Where do we start with mental health solutions? Do we have $$ in the federal budget to start?
    Exactly, but all we hear here from some is how terrible having guns is, who needs guns anyway, lets ban guns.
    That was the whole theme in today's ABC national news and will be for the next week, they said, to try to find a way to stop people having guns.
    They also said they wanted to start the talk on mental illness as it relates to this case, guns is not the only topic they had, but it was the principal one.

    That is a knee jerk reaction to this and is what makes any talk hard to conduct, when so many are up front against guns.

    Where I live we have one person per mile, we have wildlife that needs to be managed/controlled around dwellings, we understand and use guns properly, although some times a crazy one, like a month ago a 14 year old boy killed his foster mother and her daughter and I think another foster kid in that home.
    Yes, he shot her, but would have knifed her, axed her, ran her over with the car, he meant to kill her and did, just happen to be with a gun.

    That is crazy people doing crazy things, not guns need banning because some crazy people do crazy things with guns.
    That gets lost in the debates, because some people don't like guns on principle, about like a religion to them, you can't debate against those with that mindset.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  18. #98

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    Agreed -- we need to put the knee-jerk reactions (pro or con on guns) away and really look at our options here. What can we do? What can we afford to do? What can we realistically make happen?

    Maybe there should be some gun education going on, too. I mean, if your household includes children, seniors with Alzheimer's, someone with a mental illness, or people who are unstable, then you shouldn't load up on the assault weapons! Common sense. I have guns, too, and I use them. Grew up with them. But when there are children involved, the guns get locked up. Granted, they're not much good in an emergency if they are under lock-and-key, but it's a risk management decision -- which is the higher risk?

    When my parents went through a brief period in their marriage where they were having serious marital difficulty, my dad took all of the guns out of the house. Now, these are two rational people who understood and used guns every day, my dad was a gunsmith. So he KNEW that he did not want what would otherwise be a heated argument to be forgotten years later to turn into a tragedy.

    Of course, he also dropped out of the NRA over the whole assault-weapon issue. And we can argue over what qualifies as an assault weapon and who does or does not need them, but that should be a rational discussion not a knee-jerk "don't take my guns" or "take all the guns" argument!


    5 members found this post helpful.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by King's Ransom View Post
    Just asking. What is your proposal then? Just "more guns" though not necessarily machine guns for everyone?

    I'm sorry, you seem vague.
    Well I was very clear in my post I was NOT suggesting giving submachine guns to all Americans yet you still acted as if I did? I mean SHEESH...just READ before you make comments like that.

    I already laid out my proposal. Keep it legal to carry guns both open and concealed to people who wish to and get rid of "gun free" zones that encourage nutcases to attack defenseless people. If nutjobs KNEW that there would likely be other armed people at the mall or the theatre or the school, do you think they'd be so likely to show up in these places? The Swiss are a great example of where arming the people and training them to defend themselves and their families has WORKED.

    That was all I was suggesting.

    I also believe that we need better mental health care and controls of these people in the US. There is a viral article on Facebook right now from another mother of a mentally ill son who has struggled to control him and get help. Perhaps if any good can come out of this tragedy, more of these troubled and potentially dangerous people can get the help they need.

    I agree with Bluey that a knee jerk reaction to take away guns is the wrong approach.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  20. #100
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    A knee jerk reaction to keep all guns (or the really radical people who claimed on another thread that they wanted to have the right to their own missiles and nuclear weapons) is also the wrong approach

    One extreme is no better than the other.


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