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  1. #21
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    Funny, I didn't see them say anywhere that someone with a personality disorder can just get therapy and if they work really hard control themselves...that is what I thought you were saying in a nutshell (a simplified nutshell for simple minds like me If you did not say that, then I apologize for misunderstanding you. If you did say that, then I disagree with you! (Oh, and a little mind like mine can understand what was written.) If they are using medications to treat a symptom, then the symptom is coming from a physical or chemical place. Anyway, have a wonderful evening, and thank you for the educational debate. This is why I love COTH...so many opinions (mine included Thank you again!!
    Certified Spiritual Medium/ Animal Communicator
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  2. #22

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    Mental health services, and training for law enforcement, need to be addressed -- will it solve the problem 100%? No. But in my own personal experience, I know two families where a tragedy is just waiting to happen:

    Family One -- son is diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic. He is violent. He attacks both parents, has severely beaten his father, attacked his sister. Parents have gone to every imaginable agency begging for help. There is none available. The doctors have not found a "cocktail" of medications that work for this boy (who was once a fine young man, but was stricken with a true mental illness in his late teens). He is dangerous and violent -- which is why no group home will take him. His parents are financially ruined trying to get medical help for him, they are at their wit's end, emotionally distraught and ill equipped to handle the situation. Until he commits a crime, authorities won't intervene ... and when he does, the only real "intervention" is prison.

    Family Two -- (in Connecticut, by the way, and very close to yesterday's tragedy -- in fact, I feared it was this boy who did it!). Upper middle-class family who failed to EVER discipline petulant child ... who is now a 24-year-old heroin addict. He has twice been hospitalized for overdose, twice been institutionalized for rehab -- none of these incidents are on his record, though, because police see a "good family" and decide to just make a warning. He has lots and lots of guns, and a lethal bow. He is obsessed with guns. The last time his parents "lost" him, the police found him in a gun shop, buying a gun. He has lost his license for speeding -- but no one ever added he was under the influence. He lawyered his way out of a hit-and-run. His parents are clueless and also ill-equipped to handle the situation. But -- cops also have repeatedly had chances to do SOMETHING, and have repeatedly done nothing. Other than a few speeding tickets, this man has no record. And he can --and does -- buy guns easily.

    Something has to give. I don't know the answers, but I know we are COMPELLED to find them. And saying that the parents should fix these things is the real cop-out. Does me no good because the parents are NOT fixing these things. It is up to someone else -- and now is the time to stop wringing our hands and DO something.


    7 members found this post helpful.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistyBlue View Post
    A 9mm is not a WMD. It's an insult to those who work with or against WMDs to term a 9mm a WMD.
    If you fit the 9mm with a 100-round magazine, you can kill 100 people in one go. It might not be a trad WMD, but the body count is still significant.

    Quote Originally Posted by MistyBlue View Post
    Googling the capacity and uses of weapons is not an accurate way to base an opinion.
    I didn't 'base' or express an opinion. I asked a series of questions. Just like I asked a question in my OP that no one has answered with a 'yes' or 'no'. So I repeat it again: Is a body count of 89 an acceptable number for annual deaths from mass shooting incidents?

    According to this column:

    If the scenes of horror and heartbreak are now familiar, it's because the past six years have been particularly bloody. Fully 45% of the victims of mass shootings in America over the past three decades were killed since 2007.
    That would indicate a disturbing trend.

    And plenty of people have firearms as a hobby or sport. I have multiples, none are WMDs.
    You're making a faulty assumption about me. I shoot regularly and compete in pistol.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    How about the football player that killed his girlfriend over some fight they had, went to the training center, said goodbye to the coach and shot himself dead?

    We can't go putting everyone in a mental hospital and medicating them, just in case they may want to flip out and harm others.
    That's absolutely right (and you have touched on another subject which is TBI in football), without the gun, it would have never happened.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    2 members found this post helpful.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    Why would the average American citizen need two 9mm semi-automatics at home?

    These pistols are capable of rapid-fire and can be fitted with large-capacity magazines. This one -- which holds 100 rounds -- is rather extreme.

    Should the right to bear arms include these WMDs? Did the founding fathers have 9mm semi-automatics and assault rifles in mind when they crafted the Second Amendment?
    The founding fathers intended for citizens to have the SAME level of PERSONAL weaponry as infantry did.

    So as of now we are lagging behind.

    The question of need is irrelevant. First of all, the exercise of one's right is not linked to need. Otherwise it isn't a right. Second of all, if you think you can dictate what I need in any area of life, I can do the same to you.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  6. #26
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    In other news 32,310 people died on US roadways in 2011.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by caballero View Post
    In other news 32,310 people died on US roadways in 2011.
    How many of those were mowed down with specific intent to kill?

    I mean, if we're just comparing what's killing the most people, let's go with something like heart disease and blame pop and burgers, no? If you're going to derail, go all the way!


    5 members found this post helpful.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coanteen View Post
    How many of those were mowed down with specific intent to kill?
    What difference does it make? I'm going to bet the the pain of the relatives of those 32,310 people isn't any less because their loved ones were not "mowed down".


    3 members found this post helpful.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by red mares View Post
    I think to blame this all on mental health cuts is a cop out. It's easy to say so and so was disturbed or crazy. It's a lot harder to say that so and so was never taught right from wrong or how to cope with being told no or simple failure. A few have been legitimately mentally ill, more of them sound like they just were never taught how to live with people or how to live life.


    Perhaps the government should just spend a couple billion a year teaching parents how to "Just Say No" to their children.
    ........This


    4 members found this post helpful.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by caballero View Post
    In other news 32,310 people died on US roadways in 2011.
    So let's take a look at this. The Christian Science Monitor had a good overview of this just a few days ago.

    US road safety: Deaths lowest in more than 60 years. How we got there.

    The article cites technology and education as two factors in this success story.

    Over the years, lots of legislation has been enacted to provide for road standards and safety. The federal government and state governments have not been passive in this regard. For example, there are seat belt laws and motorcycle helmet laws and child-restraint laws. Those make a significant difference in fatalities and serious injuries, as do the airbags that auto manufacturers are required to install.

    Airbag systems were reviewed and revised for child- and small-passenger safety, even though the number of deaths caused by air bags was small (26 in 1996, 34 in 1998). But legislation was enacted to prevent these deaths.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  11. #31
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    The founding fathers lived in a very different world, and their words have to be interpretted that way. There is no need and no right for the citizens to own tanks, armed drones, nuclear weapons, etc. In fact, it's not allowed because we all recognize that. The infantry doesn't make their own decisions, they follow orders from captains, generals and ultimately the president. THey are trained in combat. The average citizen is neither trained nor is carrying out orders from people trained in tactical defense. The average citizen should be able to defend themselves, but they should not have access to automatic weapons, as they should not have access to guided missels. in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by caballero View Post
    The founding fathers intended for citizens to have the SAME level of PERSONAL weaponry as infantry did.

    So as of now we are lagging behind.

    The question of need is irrelevant. First of all, the exercise of one's right is not linked to need. Otherwise it isn't a right. Second of all, if you think you can dictate what I need in any area of life, I can do the same to you.
    Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation


    6 members found this post helpful.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    That's absolutely right (and you have touched on another subject which is TBI in football), without the gun, it would have never happened.
    You think so?
    He would have strangled her, knifed her, beat her.
    He flipped and was going to do harm, with whatever he could get his hands on.
    That is what people that flip do, guns don't do it.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  13. #33
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    Gun control is not goin to stop mass killings. The reason they end up with high fatalities is due to the very careful planning and preparing. Anyone who is really adament about trying this can find a gun or 3 easily...legal or not.

    I am not against stringent firearm control. I am very much against firearm bans. Especially when fueled by ridiculous reporting that doesn't come close to actual facts and taken up by the masses with little to no practical experience around or near firearms.

    Not to mention that banning legal firearms will not make a dent in firearm crimes. No ban yet in this country has made a dent in stopping illegal activities. This one certainly won't. But politicians will jump on it because the average vocal US citizen thinks it will improve something and the politicians know it won't but are always happy to take a stand to improve their popularity by pandering to the ignorant voters.

    This crime, the movie theater, other schools...has absolutely nothing to do with firearms or control of them. It has everything to do with pathetic fools wanting to take their own lives and do it in a spectacular way to gain media immortality. They'll happily die to finally be what they consider popular. Narcism. And it's disgusting.

    Want to stop these crimes? Ban MSNBC, CNN, and all other media sources that make damned sure every American will NEVER forget the names and faces of the losers who do this, the entities the media wants you to blame for this but I'd bet none of you can name ANY victim from these crimes without looking them up online.

    Victims? nameless necessities to sell news ratings. Criminals? RATINGS GOLD! Screw that. Pathetic nobody with a suicide wish (like a petulant child...They'll be REALLY sorry they didn't treat me better if I kill myself) goes from dead body in an empty house to Household Name for Eternity if he goes on a killing spree because he knows by experience that the media will give him what he wants.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte


    8 members found this post helpful.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistyBlue View Post
    Apparently the $131 billion spent worked...right? Or do some believe that since they haven't seen any foreign terrorism on domestic soil in a while that it's no longer an issue, time to forget and use that money on something we see in the news all the time.
    If so, it's a wonderful thing when the military keeps us so safe that we can forget and assume it's no longer an issue.

    Funding anything here isn't going to do bupkis for mass killings. The immediate nature of news in technology these days has created a phenom of Instant Celebrity coupled with Instant Gratification lifestyles. The young people doing these things aren't mentally ill so much as emotionally farked up. It's tiring seeing a million disorders brought up to cover anything the majority of the population finds unusual, scary or damaging. Not everyone who kills or mass kills is medically diagnosed mentally ill or insane. They know right from wrong, they plan these things a LONG time, they dress for their "Starring Role" and don't care if they end up dead too...as long as they achieve immortality through the never-ending media coverage.

    And WE feed it...because we want to find out what happened, why it happened, etc...so we tune in online, radio, TV, etc non-stop to try to understand. The more we tune in, the higher the ratings. The higher the ratings, the more media will exploit the tragedies and the more attention and celebrity the rotten attention seekers get, even post mortem.

    This doesn't happen in other countries as much because they often don't have never-ending coverage that atttracts other young men who want attention and instant fame and what they perceive as respect.

    When the Colombine gruesome twosome claimed a huge spot in history for their actions and the news couldn't get enough of the ratings reporting on it endlessly and online communities gloried in discussing it forever, including MANY sites made up of twisted morons praising it...they set the stage for countless copy-cats who wanted to grab some fame for themselves. And it will continue to become worse each time because now they know the body counts have to be higher and/or the victims have to be more shocking to get the HUGE media attention.

    THAT is why this crap happens. The instant information age...which is a GOOD thing, also has it's dark rotten mushy side as well. Serious mental illness my ass...this particular twisted sick f*ck had to go to a school to go after the easiest and most shocking targets he could think of...for his idea of the Coup De Grace of Suicide Mission.




    A 9mm is not a WMD. It's an insult to those who work with or against WMDs to term a 9mm a WMD.

    Googling the capacity and uses of weapons is not an accurate way to base an opinion.

    And plenty of people have firearms as a hobby or sport. I have multiples, none are WMDs.
    Well said..I wish I could have put this way.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-Lu View Post
    The founding fathers lived in a very different world, and their words have to be interpretted that way. There is no need and no right for the citizens to own tanks, armed drones, nuclear weapons, etc. In fact, it's not allowed because we all recognize that. The infantry doesn't make their own decisions, they follow orders from captains, generals and ultimately the president. THey are trained in combat. The average citizen is neither trained nor is carrying out orders from people trained in tactical defense. The average citizen should be able to defend themselves, but they should not have access to automatic weapons, as they should not have access to guided missels. in my opinion.
    Your opinion does not count. The opinion that does count is that of judges who interpret the Constitution.

    And as of late they have been agreeing with my side in droves.

    Just two days ago Illinois' prohibition on the carrying of weapons outside of one's property was ruled as unconstitutional by the 7th Circuit.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-Lu View Post
    The founding fathers lived in a very different world, and their words have to be interpretted that way. There is no need and no right for the citizens to own tanks, armed drones, nuclear weapons, etc. In fact, it's not allowed because we all recognize that. The infantry doesn't make their own decisions, they follow orders from captains, generals and ultimately the president. THey are trained in combat. The average citizen is neither trained nor is carrying out orders from people trained in tactical defense. The average citizen should be able to defend themselves, but they should not have access to automatic weapons, as they should not have access to guided missels. in my opinion.
    Thank you for making the point that I have been trying (and failing) to make on the second amendment thread.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coanteen View Post
    Do you really believe all mass shooters are mentally ill, in a manner that can actually be diagnosed and treated? I think it's as well established as it can be (given that the shooters are dead) that the Columbine killers weren't exactly in dire need of mental health resources.
    As for those with personality disorders - these things can't be "cured". A well-motivated person with a personality disorder can control their reactive behavior, and sometimes they need help/therapy to learn how to control it. Provided, again, they have the motivation and insight needed. But their personality remains what it is.
    I don't think we know enough about mental illness even in this day and age to determine if they were all mentally ill in a manner that can be diagnosed and treated. The medical profession changes their opinions pretty regularly.

    I can't wrap my head around the thought that you think anyone who commits a mass killing is in anyway in their right mind. Or they did it because they weren't properly parented.
    http://www.tbhsa.com/index.html

    Originally Posted by JSwan
    I love feral children. They taste like chicken.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canaqua View Post
    I think it's exactly the opposite, especially for those of us who are parents.

    It's easy and reassuring to think that if we just say "no" to our kids enough, don't spoil and enable them, do our best to raise them to be responsible, thoughtful and respectful, etc...that they will never do or be involved in anything bad and will grow up to be productive and respectable citizens. If ONLY it were so easy and as black and white as that.

    OF COURSE we should do our best to raise our children to know right from wrong, etc...and I think the majority of us do. But, that doesn't mean we can rest on our laurels, thinking we are doing a perfect job, and look critically on the parent of every child who does something bad.

    It's terrifying to think that there are some things you can't control just by doing everything as close to "the right way" as you can. "MY kid won't ever hurt someone, become a drug addict, get arrested, get pregnant, etc....because I'm a better parent than that one with the problem kid". IMO, that is the cop out and it leaves one open to missing signs that there could be something going wrong with your child.
    This is a very good point. Sometimes the parents of these people are actually normal and don't know or can't see what has happened to their child. The recent case in British Columbia of Kayla Bourque, a 22-year old criminology student, is a scary one. She admitted to torturing and killing her family pets, and fantasizing about killing a homeless person. She was arrested after telling this to her roommate. I heard an interview where the police confronted her parents about the pets, and it took several contacts before they put together the fact that on separate occasions, their pet had disappeared, and it coincided with their daughter's visits home.

    She pled guilty to the animal cruelty charges, served some time, but is now on probation for 3 years. The legal system can't do anything until she's actually committed a crime - but everyone says she has the mental profile of a serial killer.

    In her room, police found a bag containing a seven-inch knife, a razor blade, zap straps, a mask and a syringe.

    They found a video of her killing the cat plus another with her narrating the evisceration and hanging of the family dog.

    Her parents will not allow her into their home any more. What happens when her 3 years of probation are up?

    (And thank goodness she doesn't have easy access to a gun.)
    Blugal

    You never know what kind of obsessive compulsive crazy person you are until another person imitates your behaviour at a three-day. --Gry2Yng


    3 members found this post helpful.

  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyGiantPony View Post
    Oh, God, another one?

    This may sound stupid, but does anyone think people are going batty because of all the "end of days" talk? Is it something that's pushing the already mentally fragile over the edge?
    Whoever red thumbed this, I asked it out of genuine concern and curiosity. There have been mass suicides because of other "end of times" predictions or "religious" leaders making doomsday predictions.

    It just seems to me there have been an awful lot of shootings lately, and I'm curious if anyone thinks there's a link.
    http://www.tbhsa.com/index.html

    Originally Posted by JSwan
    I love feral children. They taste like chicken.



  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by caballero View Post
    Your opinion does not count. The opinion that does count is that of judges who interpret the Constitution.

    And as of late they have been agreeing with my side in droves.

    Just two days ago Illinois' prohibition on the carrying of weapons outside of one's property was ruled as unconstitutional by the 7th Circuit.
    Actually, my opinion does count. I vote. I write my representatives. The people I vote for appoint judges. If my opinion didn't count, wouldn't that mean that I'm living in a dictatorship? ???
    Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation


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