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  1. #1
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    Default 2012 in the US: 17 mass shootings, 89 dead

    Sobering statistics. Nothing partisan about them: people are dead and wounded, period.

    There are a number of reports circulating -- see here or here -- on this grim reality, but none of them include today's mass shooting at a hospital in Alabama, that left 3 wounded and 1 (the gunman) dead.

    I don't have numbers for 2012, but 'terrorism' killed 17 Americans in 2011 and 15 in 2010. None of these happened in the US. The US government spent approximately $131 billion this year fighting the 'war on terror'.

    Meanwhile, states cut a total of $1.6 billion in mental health-related services between 2009 and 2012. About 3200 inpatient psychiatric beds have been lost during those years.

    At what point does the US start looking inward to protect its citizens? Or is 89 dead an acceptable number?


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  2. #2

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    Oh, God, another one?

    This may sound stupid, but does anyone think people are going batty because of all the "end of days" talk? Is it something that's pushing the already mentally fragile over the edge?
    http://www.tbhsa.com/index.html

    Originally Posted by JSwan
    I love feral children. They taste like chicken.


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  3. #3
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    Thank you, JER. It's sobering, isn't it?
    Blugal

    You never know what kind of obsessive compulsive crazy person you are until another person imitates your behaviour at a three-day. --Gry2Yng



  4. #4
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    Default

    I think to blame this all on mental health cuts is a cop out. It's easy to say so and so was disturbed or crazy. It's a lot harder to say that so and so was never taught right from wrong or how to cope with being told no or simple failure. A few have been legitimately mentally ill, more of them sound like they just were never taught how to live with people or how to live life.

    Perhaps the government should just spend a couple billion a year teaching parents how to "Just Say No" to their children.


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  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by red mares View Post
    I think to blame this all on mental health cuts is a cop out. It's easy to say so and so was disturbed or crazy. It's a lot harder to say that so and so was never taught right from wrong or how to cope with being told no or simple failure. A few have been legitimately mentally ill, more of them sound like they just were never taught how to live with people or how to live life.

    Perhaps the government should just spend a couple billion a year teaching parents how to "Just Say No" to their children.
    I don't think it's a cop out. Do you really think a mentally stable person massacres innocent people? It's not just petulance that causes that.
    http://www.tbhsa.com/index.html

    Originally Posted by JSwan
    I love feral children. They taste like chicken.


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  6. #6
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    Default

    Anyone notice that these tend to occur in "gun free zones" (churches, hospitals, schools, etc.)?

    Not all do, of course, but a whole bunch do.

    Could it be that the shooters are following the mirror image of the Willie Sutton Rule? Could it be that while they might be evil or disturbed or something else they are smart enough to go where they can be fairly well assured or no effective opposition?

    Interesting questions IMO.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão


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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyGiantPony View Post
    I don't think it's a cop out. Do you really think a mentally stable person massacres innocent people? It's not just petulance that causes that.
    Do you really believe all mass shooters are mentally ill, in a manner that can actually be diagnosed and treated? I think it's as well established as it can be (given that the shooters are dead) that the Columbine killers weren't exactly in dire need of mental health resources.
    As for those with personality disorders - these things can't be "cured". A well-motivated person with a personality disorder can control their reactive behavior, and sometimes they need help/therapy to learn how to control it. Provided, again, they have the motivation and insight needed. But their personality remains what it is.


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  8. #8
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    their personality might be what it is, but if better resources are in place, maybe, just maybe those types - or the majority of them - can be kept from owning the most damaging firearms.

    I was at an outdoor scout function...while we were at the premises, police threw up road blocks, right around the corner: In the next county, near by, a man had shot a child and was on the run, armed with a semi-automatic rifle!
    No 'mass' shooting, though he did apparently also shoot a cop, but very close by as we honored fallen service men and women, as well as the victims of yesterday's shooting...the hospital shooting had just made the rounds through the bleachers....also relatively close by.
    This is NOT what sane people do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


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  9. #9
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    According to profilers, some mass murderers are sadistic sociopaths, like one of the Columbine shooters, but for the most part, they are deeply depressed angry people who tend to have little social contact and feel like their problems are the fault of others. But, there are a lot of people who are angry depressives...what makes them pull the trigger? No one knows. But they tend to be white young males. We need to figure it out.

    Mental health services for all + some common sense new gun regulations...I believe that's might be one of the answers.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    their personality might be what it is, but if better resources are in place, maybe, just maybe those types - or the majority of them - can be kept from owning the most damaging firearms.
    You'd need generalized gun control. In the case of yesterday's shooter, the weapons belonged to his mother, who afaik was sufficiently sane to legally own them.

    But even if you just wanted to control individuals - how would the "mental health system" know about them? Should divorcing partners be compelled to undergo repeat evaluations, and perhaps surrender their guns until everything is finalized? Family annihilators often "snap" during a separation/divorce, after a lifetime of being or appearing perfectly sane, holding down jobs, etc.
    Should fired employees be mandated to undergo evaluation? So we can determine their likelihood of "going postal"?
    Perhaps all young men who have been angry at a gf after she broke up with them, or who tend to wear black a lot, should just be banned from owning guns until we can positively determine their level of sanity.

    Look, these aren't florid schizophrenics running around mowing people down. I mean yes, in a few cases they are, there were warning signs and the system failed.
    But a lot of these cases involve apparently normal people, even people pretty successful in life. How exactly would they be identified for some kind of screening?


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  11. #11
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    Why would the average American citizen need two 9mm semi-automatics at home?

    These pistols are capable of rapid-fire and can be fitted with large-capacity magazines. This one -- which holds 100 rounds -- is rather extreme.

    Should the right to bear arms include these WMDs? Did the founding fathers have 9mm semi-automatics and assault rifles in mind when they crafted the Second Amendment?


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  12. #12
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    Ummm...pretty sure that someone cannot "control" themselves if they have a personality disorder by just controlling their behavior. That is the problem, their sense of acceptable is "off". Sometimes it can be controlled with medication, but a chemical imbalance cannot be controlled though Will. That is like someone saying that hypothyroid can be controlled by Will. It is a medical issue and should be treated as such. Some treatments prove valid, and others are trickier. I believe we need a better understanding of "mental illness" as a society. Most can be managed, but some cannot...just like any other disease. Just my 2 cents
    Certified Spiritual Medium/ Animal Communicator
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    Why would the average American citizen need two 9mm semi-automatics at home?

    These pistols are capable of rapid-fire and can be fitted with large-capacity magazines. This one -- which holds 100 rounds -- is rather extreme.

    Should the right to bear arms include these WMDs? Did the founding fathers have 9mm semi-automatics and assault rifles in mind when they crafted the Second Amendment?
    There's a whole debate about this going on in the second amendment thread.



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meliora View Post
    Ummm...pretty sure that someone cannot "control" themselves if they have a personality disorder by just controlling their behavior. That is the problem, their sense of acceptable is "off". Sometimes it can be controlled with medication, but a chemical imbalance cannot be controlled though Will. That is like someone saying that hypothyroid can be controlled by Will. It is a medical issue and should be treated as such. Some treatments prove valid, and others are trickier. I believe we need a better understanding of "mental illness" as a society. Most can be managed, but some cannot...just like any other disease. Just my 2 cents
    A problem is that under current law one cannot be forced to take the medication. One person's right trump the right of society for general safety.

    I believe many of these trigger men have raised concern at one point or another, but there is nothing in place to deal with these people until they commit violent crimes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by red mares View Post
    I think to blame this all on mental health cuts is a cop out. It's easy to say so and so was disturbed or crazy. It's a lot harder to say that so and so was never taught right from wrong or how to cope with being told no or simple failure. A few have been legitimately mentally ill, more of them sound like they just were never taught how to live with people or how to live life.

    Perhaps the government should just spend a couple billion a year teaching parents how to "Just Say No" to their children.
    I think it's exactly the opposite, especially for those of us who are parents.

    It's easy and reassuring to think that if we just say "no" to our kids enough, don't spoil and enable them, do our best to raise them to be responsible, thoughtful and respectful, etc...that they will never do or be involved in anything bad and will grow up to be productive and respectable citizens. If ONLY it were so easy and as black and white as that.

    OF COURSE we should do our best to raise our children to know right from wrong, etc...and I think the majority of us do. But, that doesn't mean we can rest on our laurels, thinking we are doing a perfect job, and look critically on the parent of every child who does something bad.

    It's terrifying to think that there are some things you can't control just by doing everything as close to "the right way" as you can. "MY kid won't ever hurt someone, become a drug addict, get arrested, get pregnant, etc....because I'm a better parent than that one with the problem kid". IMO, that is the cop out and it leaves one open to missing signs that there could be something going wrong with your child.


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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meliora View Post
    Ummm...pretty sure that someone cannot "control" themselves if they have a personality disorder by just controlling their behavior. That is the problem, their sense of acceptable is "off". Sometimes it can be controlled with medication, but a chemical imbalance cannot be controlled though Will. That is like someone saying that hypothyroid can be controlled by Will. It is a medical issue and should be treated as such. Some treatments prove valid, and others are trickier. I believe we need a better understanding of "mental illness" as a society. Most can be managed, but some cannot...just like any other disease. Just my 2 cents
    A personality disorder is not a chemical imbalance, and while some people are on meds to treat concurrent mood disorders etc, there are no medications for personality disorders themselves. They are essentially clusters of certain personality traits - you can't medicate away personality traits.

    As for controlling behavior - that is the treatment (or more precisely, the management) of personality disorders. The person needs to learn to identify the pattern of thoughts that leads them down certain maladaptive cycles, and actually control it. That's why it's so difficult to do - the person might not have insight that they, not the people around them, are the problem. They might find it very difficult to control a pattern of behavior that's been ingrained for years and years. They might be plain uninterested in changing (narcissists for example very rarely seek help). But recognition and control is exactly what therapy for personality disorders teaches, those are its goals.

    Personality disorder can't be cured or medicated away. It is not a condition like hypothyroidism; it's not even a mental illness like depression or schizophrenia. It is in fact managed through education and will.


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  17. #17
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    Hi Coanteen...so I just googled Mayo Clinic and Personality Disorder, and according to the Mayo Clinic a personality disorder is usually treated with a combo of therapy and medication....it is a chemical imbalance. If you are a Doctor, then you disagree with the Mayo Clinic. Sorry, but I feel very strongly about this as do you...we may have to agree to disagree. I agree with the Mayo Clinic.
    Certified Spiritual Medium/ Animal Communicator
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  18. #18
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    I don't have numbers for 2012, but 'terrorism' killed 17 Americans in 2011 and 15 in 2010. None of these happened in the US. The US government spent approximately $131 billion this year fighting the 'war on terror'.
    Apparently the $131 billion spent worked...right? Or do some believe that since they haven't seen any foreign terrorism on domestic soil in a while that it's no longer an issue, time to forget and use that money on something we see in the news all the time.
    If so, it's a wonderful thing when the military keeps us so safe that we can forget and assume it's no longer an issue.

    Funding anything here isn't going to do bupkis for mass killings. The immediate nature of news in technology these days has created a phenom of Instant Celebrity coupled with Instant Gratification lifestyles. The young people doing these things aren't mentally ill so much as emotionally farked up. It's tiring seeing a million disorders brought up to cover anything the majority of the population finds unusual, scary or damaging. Not everyone who kills or mass kills is medically diagnosed mentally ill or insane. They know right from wrong, they plan these things a LONG time, they dress for their "Starring Role" and don't care if they end up dead too...as long as they achieve immortality through the never-ending media coverage.

    And WE feed it...because we want to find out what happened, why it happened, etc...so we tune in online, radio, TV, etc non-stop to try to understand. The more we tune in, the higher the ratings. The higher the ratings, the more media will exploit the tragedies and the more attention and celebrity the rotten attention seekers get, even post mortem.

    This doesn't happen in other countries as much because they often don't have never-ending coverage that atttracts other young men who want attention and instant fame and what they perceive as respect.

    When the Colombine gruesome twosome claimed a huge spot in history for their actions and the news couldn't get enough of the ratings reporting on it endlessly and online communities gloried in discussing it forever, including MANY sites made up of twisted morons praising it...they set the stage for countless copy-cats who wanted to grab some fame for themselves. And it will continue to become worse each time because now they know the body counts have to be higher and/or the victims have to be more shocking to get the HUGE media attention.

    THAT is why this crap happens. The instant information age...which is a GOOD thing, also has it's dark rotten mushy side as well. Serious mental illness my ass...this particular twisted sick f*ck had to go to a school to go after the easiest and most shocking targets he could think of...for his idea of the Coup De Grace of Suicide Mission.


    Why would the average American citizen need two 9mm semi-automatics at home?

    These pistols are capable of rapid-fire and can be fitted with large-capacity magazines. This one -- which holds 100 rounds -- is rather extreme.

    Should the right to bear arms include these WMDs? Did the founding fathers have 9mm semi-automatics and assault rifles in mind when they crafted the Second Amendment?
    A 9mm is not a WMD. It's an insult to those who work with or against WMDs to term a 9mm a WMD.

    Googling the capacity and uses of weapons is not an accurate way to base an opinion.

    And plenty of people have firearms as a hobby or sport. I have multiples, none are WMDs.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meliora View Post
    Hi Coanteen...so I just googled Mayo Clinic and Personality Disorder, and according to the Mayo Clinic a personality disorder is usually treated with a combo of therapy and medication....it is a chemical imbalance. If you are a Doctor, then you disagree with the Mayo Clinic. Sorry, but I feel very strongly about this as do you...we may have to agree to disagree. I agree with the Mayo Clinic.
    Amazingly, the Mayo Clinic entry on PD's not only doesn't say they're chemical imbalances (because they're not), but also says outright that there are no medications specifically for PD's (because there aren't) and that some meds may be used together with the main treatment (that would be the therapy I mentioned, the one that teaches recognition and control - read the page, it mentions 4 different types of therapy and every. single. one. is about teaching recognition and control) to control some associated symptoms like anxiety or low moods. Associated symptoms. Not the PD itself - because that can not be cured or treated by drugs. Or in fact by anything; only controlled by the person themselves.

    So as you see, I too agree with the Mayo Clicic. Only, unlike you, I actually understand what they've written.

    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/per...orders/DS00562


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  20. #20
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    How about the football player that killed his girlfriend over some fight they had, went to the training center, said goodbye to the coach and shot himself dead?

    We can't go putting everyone in a mental hospital and medicating them, just in case they may want to flip out and harm others.



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