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  1. #101
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    Well, the President no longer has to hide from the debate as he will not face reelection and political pressure from special interest groups. If he chooses a continued path to nowhere, I will be very, very unhappy.

    Much can be done if our reps organize and choose a path forward, be it a serious discussion about assault weapons, mental health, school security, general security or all of the above.
    But do something, he and Congress must.

    This is just unacceptable.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  2. #102
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    Aug. 20, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by prairiewind2 View Post
    Informed speculation is all that we can do. Notice I said "informed." It's my understanding that schools don't teach much history these days, which shocks me no end. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana

    And I don't consider informed discussion as "bickering." (It's a shame if schools are also teaching that disagreement is bad.) Disagreement and discussion are necessary for the survival of our country. That's something that the general populace seems to have forgotten - ie, anyone who doesn't agree with you is evil or stoopid.

    The U.S.'s founding was - even among the founding fathers - extremely contentious.

    Liz
    LOL! Someone gave me a thumbs down for this. They don't agree with Santayana? They don't think history should be taught in schools? They don't think discussion and debate is good? They don't think the founding fathers ever disagreed?

    Liz


    9 members found this post helpful.

  3. #103
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    Mar. 22, 2005
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    I'm obviously not making my point very well since I still haven't gotten it across.

    Interpreting the Constitution and its amendments as to how they apply to today is different from trying to put words/thoughts in the mouths of some deceased gentlemen.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  4. #104
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    But it isn't, really. That is what some of the justices are doing. They are trying to read the thoughts of the founding fathers. So it behooves all of us to have an opinion on that too. Because ultimately, we the people have a lot to say about the justices we end up with.

    Liz


    4 members found this post helpful.

  5. #105
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    Sep. 13, 2000
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    Greenville, MI,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donkerbruin View Post
    I feel like I'm reading that the Second Amendment supporters believe they need to have guns in order to protect themselves from the government.

    What, pray tell, do you think the government is going to do?
    MY word, Does the name Adolf Hitler mean anything to you?
    Oh sure, I know that could never happen again.
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  6. #106
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    Jun. 22, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    Um, hello, automatic weapons did not exist at the time of the founding fathers.....Different time and place and more importantly different technology. We have other "checks and balances" besides weapons to make our points about how we are to be governed. And yes, fear of "government going bad" that is not on my list of things I fear. I fear lack of the right to collective bargaining, lack of the right to birth control, lack of healthcare, lack of the right to quality public education, and a corporate take over of our political system and owning firearms will never make me feel more secure or resolve the issues that I do fear. .....but I see you speak with the founding fathers.
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
    — Thomas Jefferson
    http://www.tbhsa.com/index.html

    Originally Posted by JSwan
    I love feral children. They taste like chicken.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  7. #107
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    Apr. 3, 2006
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    ^ However, the only way we could do that is to own modern day weapons.
    Reminds me of Raiders of the Lost Ark...the guy admirably swinging/twirling the substantial sword only to be shot with a gun by Harrison Ford.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DzcOCyHDqc


    3 members found this post helpful.

  8. #108
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    Jun. 22, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    ^ However, the only way we could do that is to own modern day weapons.
    Reminds me of Raiders of the Lost Ark...the guy admirably swinging/twirling the substantial sword only to be shot with a gun by Harrison Ford.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DzcOCyHDqc
    LOL I do so love that part of the film.

    But seriously, there's no indication that the Founding Fathers thought we'd all still be using muskets. They weren't unfamiliar with advances in technology.
    http://www.tbhsa.com/index.html

    Originally Posted by JSwan
    I love feral children. They taste like chicken.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyGiantPony View Post
    LOL I do so love that part of the film.

    But seriously, there's no indication that the Founding Fathers thought we'd all still be using muskets. They weren't unfamiliar with advances in technology.
    Maybe not...but did they think we would have "smart" bombs or suitcase nuclear bombs? Or rockets or..or..or nano technology. Could they even imagine it? Did they have a Gene Roddenberry?


    2 members found this post helpful.

  10. #110
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    Nov. 18, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyGiantPony View Post
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
    — Thomas Jefferson
    You people who believe like Mygaintpony that the citizens of the US need to stockpile weapons to use against the US government and that is the message of our founding fathers have missed the boat completely. Literal understanding of the words in a vacuum, maybe, but you lost the message.

    The message is to always be vigilent against tyranny, yes vote against the tyrants. Be involved, advocate for freedoms-for everyone. We are not colonies anymore, the western US is part of the US, we have states, local governments. It is 2012 people, you will NEVER make your political point with weapons.

    So hoard your weapons if you think that is a powerfull political statement, however, I think you are all misguided about the message.


    12 members found this post helpful.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    Maybe not...but did they think we would have "smart" bombs or suitcase nuclear bombs? Or rockets or..or..or nano technology. Could they even imagine it? Did they have a Gene Roddenberry?
    It doesn't really matter - they left the wording vague enough to adapt to the times. I think they had the wisdom to that on purpose. The intent of the words is the same, no matter the age.
    http://www.tbhsa.com/index.html

    Originally Posted by JSwan
    I love feral children. They taste like chicken.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    You people who believe like Mygaintpony that the citizens of the US need to stockpile weapons to use against the US government and that is the message of our founding fathers have missed the boat completely. Literal understanding of the words in a vacuum, maybe, but you lost the message.

    The message is to always be vigilent against tyranny, yes vote against the tyrants. Be involved, advocate for freedoms-for everyone. We are not colonies anymore, the western US is part of the US, we have states, local governments. It is 2012 people, you will NEVER make your political point with weapons.

    So hoard your weapons if you think that is a powerfull political statement, however, I think you are all misguided about the message.
    Then what do you think the message is? Specific to the wording of the 2nd Amendment.
    http://www.tbhsa.com/index.html

    Originally Posted by JSwan
    I love feral children. They taste like chicken.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  13. #113
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    Mar. 22, 2004
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    I would hope if you watch the interviews with the parents of the children who were lost or the teachers who tried to save them, you might agreed that heavy weapons have no place in our society. All the children were killed by multiple bullets from a high powered rifle. The answer is not to arm everyone, but to keep the citizenry safe by restricting access to heavy weapons. The knee jerk reaction of "oh, if the teachers had guns, this would have been prevented" is a specious argument - the murderer in this case and in the recent shootings were all wearing body armour, so unlikely that they would have been stopped except by another high powered weapon


    9 members found this post helpful.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by ponymom64 View Post
    I would hope if you watch the interviews with the parents of the children who were lost or the teachers who tried to save them, you might agreed that heavy weapons have no place in our society. All the children were killed by multiple bullets from a high powered rifle. The answer is not to arm everyone, but to keep the citizenry safe by restricting access to heavy weapons. The knee jerk reaction of "oh, if the teachers had guns, this would have been prevented" is a specious argument - the murderer in this case and in the recent shooting were all wearing body armour, so unlikely that they would have been stopped.
    Arming teachers works in Isreal, as well as a few other countries.
    http://www.tbhsa.com/index.html

    Originally Posted by JSwan
    I love feral children. They taste like chicken.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  15. #115
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    Mar. 10, 2007
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    I think the Founding Fathers anticipated advances in all areas of this country. I think they were extremely forward thinking and had they been able to see a glimpse of the future they still would have had the 2nd Amendment.

    Probably they would instead ban television and video games and cell phones.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  16. #116
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    Jul. 31, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyGiantPony View Post
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
    — Thomas Jefferson
    And if you think that will do you any good, even in the last analysis, you are quite mistaken.

    I ask you: What will be left preserving if you find yourself with the opportunity to get a killing shot at this or that federal official?

    IMO, you need a much, much better reason for the Second Amendment in today's world.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    6 members found this post helpful.

  17. #117
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    Apr. 3, 2006
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    We are gun owners. My husband is an avid sportsman. I no longer hunt and for me personally guns are a means of varmint protection and red meat. I can shoot. Was a dead aim using only sights back in the day. Rusty these days I imagine in ALL things regarding gun. I experienced it a couple years trying to quell a varmint trying to kill chickens. What a wake-up call.

    Proper gun use takes practice. If you don't practice you do dumb things. It is not a toy, much like horse. You can't just practice and throw it out to pasture and several years pick it back up where you left off.

    I shot trap, I killed deer, I hunted squirrels, I killed varmints, shot targets etc etc. for many years in my twenty's. I was skilled and comfortable. Thought I always would be....I know all about guns. I sucked! I fumbled around, forgot half of what I knew, blah blah blah!

    I am a typical legal gun owner. I am not a gun hobbiest.

    The NRA, not unlike the HSUS, need to get off their lobbying a$$es and build a think tank to at least address one prong of a solution, to keep unstable people from gun access.

    How do we do that without tromping on Amendment "rights"? Is there even a compromise from the die-hard NRAers? Hell I'd like to collect suit case bombs, I love those metal suitcases. Can't they just dumb it down so it isn't such a huge threat? Like Civilian automatics. I mean really. WTH!


    8 members found this post helpful.

  18. #118
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    Mar. 22, 2004
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    While I support Israel, I would never choose many of their policies to model my country after.


    7 members found this post helpful.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    And if you think that will do you any good, even in the last analysis, you are quite mistaken.

    I ask you: What will be left preserving if you find yourself with the opportunity to get a killing shot at this or that federal official?

    IMO, you need a much, much better reason for the Second Amendment in today's world.
    And in my opinion, the reason stands as valid today as it did in the 1700's. I hope it's never needed, but if that time would ever come I sure as hell don't want the government being the only ones with guns.
    http://www.tbhsa.com/index.html

    Originally Posted by JSwan
    I love feral children. They taste like chicken.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  20. #120
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    Nov. 18, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyGiantPony View Post
    Then what do you think the message is? Specific to the wording of the 2nd Amendment.

    At the time being able to own firearms allowed the people of the US to defend themselves against potential British tyrants and perhaps others who would dictate the new laws of a new nation. So much of the communities were very rural and governments were being established that could allow people to become dictators within their own rural areas. By establishing the rights of individuals to be armed, it made the government (people acting in that capacity) less powerfull to dictate tyrancy to the community. People could essentially take over a tyrancy of government by their weapons.

    We still have a right to own weapons but the courts have ruled the 2nd ammendment to be more of a right of self defense in more current times. The message of not allowing the government to be a tyrant to the communities is still valid, however, an individual or group will never effect change by weapons that they own. Currently voting and being involved and taking our politicians to task on their decisions is more effective.

    That is what I see the message to be. And thank you Mygiantpony for the thoughtfull question.

    I now have a tree to trim and two extremely curious kitties who are experiencing their first ever Christmas tree. I am hoping the tree will be still standing by morning....


    4 members found this post helpful.

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