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  1. #61
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    I have 2 hands, how come I can't give two thumbs up to wireweiners post?

    NJR
    Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behaviour does.



  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowgirljenn View Post
    I am so torn over gun control. I don't think people need handguns or assault rifles (I know there will be arguments!). I don't think the founding fathers could have anticipated the kinds of guns we have today when they wrote the Constitution, but I do think gun control would first require a Constitutional Amendment.

    I have no problem with guns for hunting as I know people who have enough to eat only because they can hunt to put food on the table.

    HOWEVER (this is where I get conflicted) - how do you enforce stricter gun control now? Whether I like handguns and assault rifles or not, people have them. Do you go knocking on people's doors to ask them to hand over guns? (I'm being a bit facetious here). Even if we outlawed assault rifles and handguns here in the US, those who want them could get them elsewhere (they may not care about the legality of acquiring guns from outside the country). For those in favor of stricter gun control here, how do you think we enforce/enact it?

    I don't know what the answer is. I just know this situation, and many others, are heartbreaking.
    You buy them back. As many as you can buy, for whatever price necessary. And then you destroy them. I'll be the first to contribute to the buy back program.

    I'm not against guns, heck a gun is necessary out in a rural area if you have livestock, but I'll all for a reasonable licensing, instruction, and waiting period policy. In addition, ammunition purchases should be licensed and tracked.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    9 members found this post helpful.

  3. #63
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    Mayhaps, Superminion, if you were a member of Seal Team 6, I might believe that. But the average gun owner (and I've been one!) doesn't inspire that sort of confidence in me. What I do find incredible, is the sense of bravado that seems to come with concealed carry and that's what I was mockingly trying to emphasize. Bravado will get you, or an innocent bystander, killed. Quiet confidence like what I see in the special forces men, snipers, or shooting instructors I've met is a totally different animal. But hearing any average Joe or Jane Doe spout off about their Earpiness makes me want to go hide at a pacifist rally.
    Flip a coin. It's not what side lands that matters, but what side you were hoping for when the coin was still in the air.

    You call it boxed wine. I call it carboardeaux.


    12 members found this post helpful.

  4. #64
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    I think graphic pictures of these dead babies should be placed on the front page of every major newspaper in America and let the chips fall where they may.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweiners View Post
    I'm sorry but this is just a load of BS. "Open fire with whatever weapon they can get their hands on"? Oh, puhleeze, you can only "open fire" with a gun. Did all you anti gun control people ever stop and think that every gun in the hands of a criminal once belonged to some "law abiding citizen"? Where the hell do you think criminals get their guns? If we made guns, especially automatic and semi-automatic weapons, extremely difficult to acquire by anyone, maybe there wouldn't be so many guns on the street for criminals to acquire.

    Oh, and Superminion, how are you going to be sure you are going to GET to shoot first if someone pulls a gun on you? This time of statement just makes me want to puke. We don't live in the Wild West anymore people.
    Perhaps I didn't word that right. I meant that if he were going to do this, then he would have done it with what he could have gotten his hands on.

    I don't know if I'd get to shoot first, but I sure as heck am not going to just stand there. That might work for you, but not for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by MistyBlue View Post
    I prefer them outside playing as opposed to standing in the barn aisle playing "I can crap more than you"
    New Year, New Blog... follow Willow and I here.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    According to the UN, the intentional homicide rate in the US is 5.6 to 5.9 per 100,000. Our neighbor, Canada, with stricter gun control laws, has a rate of 1.5 to 2.0/100,000. Note, this is all homicides, not just gun deaths. In a comparison to European, industrialized countries, no one else comes close.

    http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-...s-05012009.pdf
    Quote Originally Posted by LarkspurCO View Post
    Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade

    Gun crime has almost doubled since Labour came to power as a culture of extreme gang violence has taken hold.

    The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
    In some parts of the country, the number of offences has increased more than five-fold.

    In eighteen police areas, gun crime at least doubled.
    The statistic will fuel fears that the police are struggling to contain gang-related violence, in which the carrying of a firearm has become increasingly common place.

    Last week, police in London revealed they had begun carrying out armed patrols on some streets.

    The move means officers armed with sub-machine guns are engaged in routine policing for the first time.

    Shadow Home Secretary, Chris Grayling, said last night: 'In areas dominated by gang culture, we're now seeing guns used to settle scores between rivals as well as turf wars between rival drug dealers.

    'We need to redouble our efforts to deal with the challenge.'
    He added: 'These figures are all the more alarming given that it is only a week since the Metropolitan Police said it was increasing regular armed patrols in some areas of the capital'.


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz2F3pJBV4Q
    Violence is about too many factors in any society to make sense to throw one figure or fact and try to make a theory from it.

    Take all guns away and when violence is what some want, they will find a way, guns or not.

    On the other hand, all that we do legally and properly with guns deserves at least a mention, when we talk about wholesale gun control/restrictions.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  7. #67
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    People who commit the kind of atrocities that we have seen lately, do not randomly wake up and decide to massacre large numbers of people. They plan. Ruthlessly, diligently and with incredible focus. Had he not been able to buy guns, he would have built a bomb, figured out the best points for arson, or, as with China, stabbed them.

    A gun is a tool, as is dynamite, a knife, a hammer or a car. All are deadly, should they all be banned?

    Flash, I am a Brit, I can tell you that while there is little gun crime (compared to The States), violent crimes have skyrocketed in the past 10-15 yrs. The police are also on record as saying that their lack of weapons was a major hinderance in the riots.

    CFF
    Last edited by CopperFoxFarm; Dec. 14, 2012 at 03:55 PM. Reason: (...)


    9 members found this post helpful.

  8. #68
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    How about we START with penalties for "petty crimes" that actually work? Someone breaks into a house once and steals a bunch of stuff, maybe steals some guns as well...they get caught and a slap on the wrist and sent on their way...guess what, they do it again, get caught, etc...now, while THEY may not actually be using the guns/items they stole, they are probably selling them so they could potentially end up in the hands of someone who intends to use them, either in a street crime or something else...well...if you impose harsher penalties on the thief the 1st time, maybe, just maybe, it could stop THEM from doing future crimes.

    I realize thats not going to solve the entire thing, but it sounds like a good place to start to me.

    My barn owner had someone break into her house, we live in a rural area...the dogs alerted her to an intruder coming in thru her kitchen window...it took police 45 freaking minutes to get there!!!! Of course, by then he was gone but did drop the very large knife he had on him...he had an intent to do something other than steal some cookies and he didnt care that there were large dogs barking at him. I would like to ask you, in a case like THIS...what would you do? How would YOU react and what do you expect of law enforcement? In a case like this, how would you protect yourself?

    Had this been me, he would have met the end of my .40cal, no questions asked...you break into my home and all bets are off.

    I have some not so nice neighbors and our local/county law enforcement has not helped one little bit with them...they are repeat offenders of their crimes. I carry my weapon on me when I am out on my property and I have one within easy reach at night...I do not know what these people are willing to do in order to get what they need/want...and I am not about to wait on the local police to come help me should they decide they need/want something else that I have.

    Gun control is not simply a "gun control" issue...its a whole bunch of "other stuff" too...again, just my thoughts.
    Busy Bee Farm, Ellijay, GA
    Never Ride Faster Than Your Guardian Angel Can Fly
    Way Back Texas~04/20/90-09/17/08
    Green Alligator "Captain"


    11 members found this post helpful.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by BabyGreen View Post
    I think graphic pictures of these dead babies should be placed on the front page of every major newspaper in America and let the chips fall where they may.
    Would you want your children to see those pictures? If your baby was one of the dead ones, would you want his/her picture plastered around the world? We worry that people have become immune to violence, yet someone would suggest that we use photos of dead children to do what? Scare people into behaving? I don't get the point.
    Visit us at Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society - www.bluebonnetequine.org

    Want to get involved in rescue or start your own? Check out How to Start a Horse Rescue - www.howtostartarescue.com


    10 members found this post helpful.

  10. #70
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    Feb. 14, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by jen-s View Post
    Mayhaps, Superminion, if you were a member of Seal Team 6, I might believe that. But the average gun owner (and I've been one!) doesn't inspire that sort of confidence in me. What I do find incredible, is the sense of bravado that seems to come with concealed carry and that's what I was mockingly trying to emphasize. Bravado will get you, or an innocent bystander, killed. Quiet confidence like what I see in the special forces men, snipers, or shooting instructors I've met is a totally different animal. But hearing any average Joe or Jane Doe spout off about their Earpiness makes me want to go hide at a pacifist rally.
    So then what do you instruct that one does?A criminal is going to get a gun, outlawed or not. If Joe Blow walks into school while I'm dropping DD off and starts waving a gun in my face, or that of my daughter, what am I supposed to do? "Well, I don't want to turn this into the Wild West... so you just might as well shoot the kid." Yea. Sorry. No.

    Have fun at your rally!
    Quote Originally Posted by MistyBlue View Post
    I prefer them outside playing as opposed to standing in the barn aisle playing "I can crap more than you"
    New Year, New Blog... follow Willow and I here.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  11. #71
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    Jun. 14, 2006
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    VA
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    Well, I have a couple of military guys in my family, including a Medal of Honor recipient, and I can tell you that while we all love shooting our guns for fun, we all have been trained to react. Some better than others obviously. We have been trained and we act upon our training. MY training is less likely to save a life than my brothers'. They have more skill than me and a hell of a lot more gun power.

    But I was trained too. And I can tell you that if I were carrying in a situation that presented today at this school, I would like to believe that I would've become a robot and shot at the shooter.

    What I'm left with right now is knowing that all I have here is mace. And two kids when they get home. And I wonder if that is enough really.
    A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

    Might be a reason, never an excuse...


    6 members found this post helpful.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by jen-s View Post
    Mayhaps, Superminion, if you were a member of Seal Team 6, I might believe that. But the average gun owner (and I've been one!) doesn't inspire that sort of confidence in me. What I do find incredible, is the sense of bravado that seems to come with concealed carry and that's what I was mockingly trying to emphasize. Bravado will get you, or an innocent bystander, killed. Quiet confidence like what I see in the special forces men, snipers, or shooting instructors I've met is a totally different animal. But hearing any average Joe or Jane Doe spout off about their Earpiness makes me want to go hide at a pacifist rally.
    Ill agree with parts of this. I have a co-worker who LOVES to brag about her carry permit and her gun...she has NEVER shot it. She thinks it makes her safe, when I think it makes her a danger to others simply becasue she doesnt know how to handle the weapon AND she THINKS it makes her safe!!

    It should be far harder to get a concealed permit than it is...and I think thats state regulated? That wont help with the people doing acts of violence like what happened today, but, it will help in the sense that the people who have permits are not just adding to the fray.

    As Superminiomn said, when I am armed I am fully aware of my weapon. Its not a toy or a purse. If I pull it, its becasue I intend to use it...and if I use it, that person will not be limping home. A reponsible gun owner takes classes, trains, and practices, even if their state doesnt require it...you have to know how to use your weapon under stress and be willing to do so.
    Busy Bee Farm, Ellijay, GA
    Never Ride Faster Than Your Guardian Angel Can Fly
    Way Back Texas~04/20/90-09/17/08
    Green Alligator "Captain"


    11 members found this post helpful.

  13. #73
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    Nov. 8, 2007
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    Yes, if it would get America out of the hands of the NRA. They could have the picture with my blessing. And the reason is that we see violence as merely a video game or movie. We never see the blasted away faces, the holes in their bodies, the reality of death. If we were forces to face that reality, we would start making rational decisions about guns.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  14. #74
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    Slightly off topic, maybe.

    What's the point of carrying concealed if the point is for the bad guy to know you have one too so he doesn't use his?

    NJR
    Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behaviour does.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  15. #75
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    Mar. 16, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperFoxFarm View Post
    People who commit the kind of atrocities that we have seen lately, do not randomly wake up and decide to massacre large numbers of people. They plan. Ruthlessly, diligently and with incredible focus. Had he not been able to buy guns, he would have built a bomb, figured out the best points for arson, or, as with China, stabbed them.
    More likely he would have just bought a gun from someone on the black market, just as criminals do every day.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by BabyGreen View Post
    Yes, if it would get America out of the hands of the NRA. They could have the picture with my blessing. And the reason is that we see violence as merely a video game or movie. We never see the blasted away faces, the holes in their bodies, the reality of death. If we were forces to face that reality, we would start making rational decisions about guns.
    Why not just ban video games and movies?


    2 members found this post helpful.

  17. #77
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    There are a mother and daughter here that were keeping foster kids.
    They had already gone thru well over 100 over many years, had three right now living with them.
    Wonderful people.

    Three weeks ago one of their kids, now moved on and 14, came in and killed the two adults and one of the kids.

    Some people are just crazy and it is so sad when others are their target.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by BabyGreen View Post
    Yes, if it would get America out of the hands of the NRA. They could have the picture with my blessing. And the reason is that we see violence as merely a video game or movie. We never see the blasted away faces, the holes in their bodies, the reality of death. If we were forces to face that reality, we would start making rational decisions about guns.
    I agree 200%. I made a very similar argument earlier this fall in the thread about politicians' (abysmal) views on rape.

    relocated and BR--when the average concealed carrier spends as a tiny fraction as much time training with their weapon as police and military, then I'll consider taking what they say seriously. Until then, I fear them far more than I fear criminals.
    Flip a coin. It's not what side lands that matters, but what side you were hoping for when the coin was still in the air.

    You call it boxed wine. I call it carboardeaux.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  19. #79
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    I dont know that the point is so the other guy knows you have a gun so he wont use his as much as it is to make him QUESTION if you have a concealed weapon or not.

    Heck, if he can see your weapon he can think of the best way to disable it or get it off of you before you even know he has intent to do harm, etc...if he doesnt know where on your person it is he cant do that.

    Jen-S....I agree 200%...the public should be required to do more training, etc in order to get a permit...hell, even to buy a gun...it is way to easy to get your permit, at least here in GA. I will agree with that all day long.
    Busy Bee Farm, Ellijay, GA
    Never Ride Faster Than Your Guardian Angel Can Fly
    Way Back Texas~04/20/90-09/17/08
    Green Alligator "Captain"


    5 members found this post helpful.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperFoxFarm View Post
    People who commit the kind of atrocities that we have seen lately, do not randomly wake up and decide to massacre large numbers of people. They plan. Ruthlessly, diligently and with incredible focus. Had he not been able to buy guns, he would have built a bomb, figured out the best points for arson, or, as with China, stabbed them.

    A gun is a tool, as is dynamite, a knife, a hammer or a car. All are deadly, should they all be banned?

    Flash, I am a Brit, I can tell you that while there is little gun crime, violent crimes have skyrocketed in the past 10-15 yrs. The police are also on record as saying that their lack of weapons was a major hinderance in the riots.

    CFF
    This is true to a certain extent. From the facts we have been given so far, this young man apparently had a great deal of anger against his parents. He killed his father, then went to the school, killed his mother, then turned his anger on the innocent children in her classroom and the rest of the school. Its very unlikely that if he did not gain access to a gun, that he would have built a bomb to blow up the school just to kill his mother. Bombers tend to have social or political agendas even if those agendas are batshit crazy. Yes, he could have used a knife, big rock, shovel or his bare hands but those methods require one to get up close and personal with one's victims, take longer, thus allowing more people time to get away, plus are less lethal than a gun. So the argument that if he couldn't get a gun, he would have found another way is specious at best. Yes, he might have bludgeoned his parents to death but it is highly unlikely he would have killed 18 children.

    Also, don't even try that "gun is a tool" argument. Guns have one purpose, to kill things, the other articles you mentioned have other uses, killing things with them is incidental.

    Oh and the increased violent crime in Britain, my research showed, is related to gangs and drugs. That's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

    I heard about this tragedy just as I was dropping lunch off for my precious,beautiful daughter and her friend at their school. I was literally still in the school parking lot. I almost had to pull over and it was all I could do not to turn around and take her home with me. (She's in high school and would have been mortified.) I did text her and tell her I loved her. I can only imagine those poor parents, the presents that won't be opened this year, no bright happy faces anticipating Santa. God.


    6 members found this post helpful.

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