[Xmas]

Shooting is fun, and personal enjoyment is a use.

Sure. Keep them locked away at your gun club. Then no one can misuse them in the community.

But surely everyone here would agree that shooting for enjoyment is not a good enough reason to allow everyone to own a gun at a cost of 10,000 lives a year?

[Dance_To_Oblivion]

lol xmas...we already established that I cannot keep them locked away at the gun club because I might need them for farming activities! And why do I need a gun club when I can shoot on my own property? As I said before, you are out of touch.

And I am quite confident that many of the victims of genocide in the past century felt secure and comfortable with their government when they were turning their guns in. History repeats itself, why walk down a path that has lead to so many deaths already?

[Xmas]

lol xmas...we already established that I cannot keep them locked away at the gun club because I might need them for farming activities! And why do I need a gun club when I can shoot on my own property? As I said before, you are out of touch.

And I am quite confident that many of the victims of genocide in the past century felt secure and comfortable with their government when they were turning their guns in. History repeats itself, why walk down a path that has lead to so many deaths already?

And if youre a farmer with a genuine use for a gun I said that was reasonable didnt I?

However, a semi automatic weapon shouldn't be needed for farm animals should it?


So how many developed nations in the last century have suffered genocide?

Are you suggesting countries like Australia, NZ, Europe are at imminent risk?

Are you suggesting armed civilians would stand a hope in hell against the countries armed forces?

Please attempt to be realistic.

[rodawn]

Okay, it's more than gun control though.

Generally speaking, Canadians have a different attitude towards guns, towards human life, and towards other countries. We have guns in Canada, a lot of guns, probably 1/3 of our citizens have guns, but we feel no need to flaunt them or holler or yell that it is our right to bear arms, beat on our chests, and the like. We just have our guns that are kept in our safe or discreetly on our person. They're not used to shoot holes in cans or street signs (well, most of the time, can't speak for 100% of the population). The guns are respected for their purpose - in Canada the attitude toward guns is - they're used specifically for the purpose of killing (something, someone), therefore, there must be respect for the power owning a gun entails. In our society it is a right, but it is also a privilege. We don't get as emotionally charged about protecting our country and our rights - we don't feel we have to protect our rights, our rights are just there in place and there is no need to stress about it - and if the need to defend Home and Country ever arises, we will, but you will never hear about us preparing to do so. We just quietly will go about it stoic, prepared, and steadfastly determined. There are certainly not AK47s walking around the streets! We value human life and the differences each culture adds to our society. We embrace multiculturalism, encourage it, and thus encourage immigration and the multiculturalism it brings. Multiculturalism enriches our country. We might feel exasperated by some country's political policies, but we feel it is better to talk and discuss than to threaten. We prefer as a society as a whole, diplomacy over violence. But we will also defend and go to battle if the need arises. Many, many, many Canadians believe in what the UN can accomplish if given the chance, and that goes for accomplishing peace and quiet throughout the Middle East, although that's a very complicated situation there.

The Criminal Code of Canada recognizes self-defence with a firearm; the Firearms Act provides a legal framework wherein an individual may acquire, possess and carry a restricted or (a specific class of) prohibited firearm for protection from other individuals when police protection is deemed insufficient.

But, in Canada, there is rarely insufficient police protection. We have the national police force (RCMP) and big cities have a city police force. None of them are politically tied. There are no elected offices in policing - to be elected is to be potentially swayed in some way or another. They are appointed through rank, having been promoted their rank due to their efforts as a police officer in leadership and abilities.

And while we have had mass shootings (every country in this world has), we have very, very few of them, and generally speaking Canadians feel safe.

It might be said that our health care policies play a strong role, perhaps yes. But I believe it is more likely a combination of all of the things that make up Canadian society. We are in many ways, very similar to Americans, but there are other ways in which our attitudes and values and fundamentals are very, very different.

[dressurpferd01]

And if youre a farmer with a genuine use for a gun I said that was reasonable didnt I?

However, a semi automatic weapon shouldn't be needed for farm animals should it?


So how many developed nations in the last century have suffered genocide?

Are you suggesting countries like Australia, NZ, Europe are at imminent risk?

Are you suggesting armed civilians would stand a hope in hell against the countries armed forces?

Please attempt to be realistic.

You're so naive it's almost funny, if it wasn't so sickening. Countries off the top of my head that have suffered genocide: Germany, well, most of Europe in WW2, Armenia, China, Russia, Cambodia, Iraqi Kurds who were gassed by Saddam, Bosnia...shall I continue?

Any armed resistance to tyranny is better than being enslaved, or worse massacred, by your government. And yes, there are enough gun owners here, many of them military trained, to pose a significant resistance to any attempted takeover here in the US.

[Xmas]

You're so naive it's almost funny, if it wasn't so sickening. Countries off the top of my head that have suffered genocide: Germany, well, most of Europe in WW2, Armenia, China, Russia, Cambodia, Iraqi Kurds who were gassed by Saddam, Bosnia...shall I continue?

Any armed resistance to tyranny is better than being enslaved, or worse massacred, by your government. And yes, there are enough gun owners here, many of them military trained, to pose a significant resistance to any attempted takeover here in the US.

So we are talking early last century or developing countries. Thought so.

Seriously, you think I'm naive when youre afraid of tyranny in a developed country in this day and age. Let alone the fact you think having a gun at home will make any difference.

[dressurpferd01]

So we are talking early last century or developing countries. Thought so.

Seriously, you think I'm naive when youre afraid of tyranny in a developed country in this day and age. Let alone the fact you think having a gun at home will make any difference.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

There is no use arguing with delusional people.

[LauraKY]

Xmas, I don't care for the whole thumbs thing, but you get a public thumbs up from me!

[Beentheredonethat]

Xmas, me too! Good for you. Thoughtful discussion instead of paranoid fear mongering.

[Xmas]

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

There is no use arguing with delusional people.

Are you calling me delusional when you think theres a chance the American government could commit mass genocide on its own people?

Do you honestly think a government that evil would be voted into power? Do you honestly think a government that evil would care if civilians had guns? Do you honestly think civilians with limited arms and ammunition could even last a day against the armed forces of a corrupt government..

With all due respect youre speaking madness.

You are talking about an unbelievably unlikely event. Yet the likelihood of another 10 thousand people dying from gun shot wounds in the US next year is almost a certainty.

Are you seriously happy to accept such a high cost for such a ludicrous chance?

I think maybe you can start to see why some people blame these atrocities on pro gun advocates. I personally don't. I just find the entire thing so sad especially since its based on ignorance and paranoia.

The rest of the developed world has moved on from early last century. We'd love for you to join us.

[Xanthoria]

You are talking about an unbelievably unlikely event. Yet the likelihood of another 10 thousand people dying from gun shot wounds in the US next year is almost a certainty.

Are you seriously happy to accept such a high cost for such a ludicrous chance?

Exactly my thoughts.

[Xanthoria]

On the contrary ... Because of the second amendment of the US Constitution, I have no fear of mass murder by our gov't.

But mass murder of each civilians by civilians is OK? Because that's what's happening. Because you're afraid of the government. Oops...

[Xmas]

But mass murder of each civilians by civilians is OK? Because that's what's happening. Because you're afraid of the government. Oops...

Well said.

This highlights maybe another reason why some people blame gun owners for recent tragedies. They accept the fact that others will be killed each year, as long as they can protect themselves against the "government".

The genocide incidents mentioned above were in communist countries, or dictatorships, or developing nations with unstable leadership. Seems to me the US isnt in the same boat wouldnt you say?

[hosspuller]

Are you calling me delusional when you think theres a chance the American government could commit mass genocide on its own people?

Do you honestly think a government that evil would be voted into power? Do you honestly think a government that evil would care if civilians had guns? Do you honestly think civilians with limited arms and ammunition could even last a day against the armed forces of a corrupt government..

With all due respect youre speaking madness.

You are talking about an unbelievably unlikely event. Yet the likelihood of another 10 thousand people dying from gun shot wounds in the US next year is almost a certainty.

Are you seriously happy to accept such a high cost for such a ludicrous chance?

I think maybe you can start to see why some people blame these atrocities on pro gun advocates. I personally don't. I just find the entire thing so sad especially since its based on ignorance and paranoia.

The rest of the developed world has moved on from early last century. We'd love for you to join us.

Xmas ... Suffice to say I choose to be prepared. When I travel, I take a cell phone, check the fluids of the vehicle, etc. Am I delusional that the vehicle might fail? I was glad for the blanket one winter. All preparations are a matter of degree.

History has shown that the impossible can happen. (I was born and raised in NY city) In my lifetime, NYC has been flooded, attacked with mass deaths, blacked out for days. What else could happen?

Could the American gov't be taken over? Happened in Germany. Hitler was not voted in, but he took advantage of circumstances to gain control of the gov't. Anyone saying it couldn't happen today are delusional in the face of history.

People getting killed by gunshot is a certainty based on history. Vehicular failure is a certainty based on history. I try not to be a victim by behavior, awareness, and preparation.

Last point: I have no illusions that my weapons will hold off the military. My weapons will force the airman, soldiers, marines, seaman etc to consider the oath they took. "...To support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic ..." Further, that the orders they are under are lawful. Otherwise The UMCJ requires they refuse them.

In China, not so long ago, a single determined man held off a column of tanks without a shot.

That is all..

[MHM]

In China, not so long ago, a single determined man held off a column of tanks without a shot.

Was he using a gun?

[Xmas]

Xmas ... Suffice to say I choose to be prepared. When I travel, I take a cell phone, check the fluids of the vehicle, etc. Am I delusional that the vehicle might fail? I was glad for the blanket one winter. All preparations are a matter of degree.

History has shown that the impossible can happen. (I was born and raised in NY city) In my lifetime, NYC has been flooded, attacked with mass deaths, blacked out for days. What else could happen?

Could the American gov't be taken over? Happened in Germany. Hitler was not voted in, but he took advantage of circumstances to gain control of the gov't. Anyone saying it couldn't happen today are delusional in the face of history.

People getting killed by gunshot is a certainty based on history. Vehicular failure is a certainty based on history. I try not to be a victim by behavior, awareness, and preparation.

Last point: I have no illusions that my weapons will hold off the military. My weapons will force the airman, soldiers, marines, seaman etc to consider the oath they took. "...To support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic ..." Further, that the orders they are under are lawful. Otherwise The UMCJ requires they refuse them.

In China, not so long ago, a single determined man held off a column of tanks without a shot.

That is all..

If the cost of being prepared for the extremely unlikely event of your government being overthrown by evil was small then I'd say more power to you. But its not. Its 10,000 lives a year, most perfectly innocent, and many who probably haven't made the choice to own a gun, as with these kids.

In fact over the last 50 years its been estimated at 1 million american deaths by guns. Imagine if a government came in and killed 1 million Americans. Would this be called Genocide? Well is this current situation better or worse, Or just a slower version of genocide?

[MHM]

There is no use arguing with delusional people.

Clearly.

[Fred]

History has shown that the impossible can happen. (I was born and raised in NY city) In my lifetime, NYC has been flooded, attacked with mass deaths, blacked out for days. What else could happen?

Could the American gov't be taken over? Happened in Germany. Hitler was not voted in, but he took advantage of circumstances to gain control of the gov't. Anyone saying it couldn't happen today are delusional in the face of history.

You want to reread your *history* hosspuller.
Hitler was in fact elected initially.
The aristocracy and industrialists didn't 'like' him but felt he would be useful to them to stem the tide of communism. So they voted for him.
He also played very effectively on the fears, biases, fears of the 'Other', sense of 'injustice' and ideas of racial purity and superiority of Germans and Germany to win over others.
He and Goebels also had a very clear understanding of the usefullness of controlling the media and the message that the public got.
He also spent a lot of time busting unions and anything that smacked of 'socialism'

Something seems oh so familar to me about all that.....

[Bluey]

You want to reread your *history* hosspuller.
Hitler was in fact elected initially.
The aristocracy and industrialists didn't 'like' him but felt he would be useful to them to stem the tide of communism. So they voted for him.
He also played very effectively on the fears, biases, fears of the 'Other', sense of 'injustice' and ideas of racial purity and superiority of Germans and Germany to win over others.
He and Goebels also had a very clear understanding of the usefullness of controlling the media and the message that the public got.
He also spent a lot of time busting unions and anything that smacked of 'socialism'

Something seems oh so familar to me about all that.....

Dictatorships, by any name, following any agendas, religious, social, madness, are all about the same, a few controlling all.
Fascism, communism, theocracies, all those were/are/end up as dictatorships.

Most people in the USA don't know how lucky they are, in the midst of their first world problems.

[Dance_To_Oblivion]

And if youre a farmer with a genuine use for a gun I said that was reasonable didnt I?

However, a semi automatic weapon shouldn't be needed for farm animals should it?

If a pack of coydogs is going after my sheep (one of my neighbors counted I think 16 in a pack on one of my back fields a couple winters ago) my AR-15 with a large magazine will absolutely be my first choice.

You really DO NOT get it.