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  1. #1
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    Default New Changes to Hanoverian Breeding Policies; A sign of the times?

    This link was posted on a Facebook group that I'm a member of: http://www.eurodressage.com/equestri...ng-policy-2013

    While I don't breed Hanoverians, I do find it interesting b/c it is a topic that is often debated here on this board, i.e. "open registries" vs. an actual "breed" registry, and how much "outside" blood is allowed into the various registries.
    Already excited about our 2016 foals! Expecting babies by Indoctro, Diamant de Semilly, Zirocco Blue and Calido!
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  2. #2
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    I highly doubt it's a matter of the Verband throwing open its doors and throwing standards to the wind. IMHO, this change is overdue and a smart move. I have been in the position myself of wanting to use a particular stallion but being unable to because he is not yet AHS/Verband-approved. Mare owners in that situation have to choose between a good match and satisfying the registry. Often, they choose to have their Hanoverian mare approved in another registry in order to breed to that stallion and then the foal goes to the other registry as well. I see this most frequently with Hanoverian mares being put to GOV stallions. I see the rule change as ultimately a positive one for the AHS, though I'm sure there are those who will say this just opens a gate for "flavor of the month" stallions.
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  3. #3
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    So by, "- Wider Breeding Spectrum
    According to the plans of the Board the so-called 50% rule will disappear in future. This means that all registered mares can then be paired to all registered stallions and the consequent foal can get a Hanoverian brand."
    .... does it mean registered mares of ANY breed are qualified?



  4. #4
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    "does it mean registered mares of ANY breed are qualified?"

    No, it means that all registered Hanoverian mares can then be bred to the chosen Approved stallions from other studbooks and the resulting foal can get full Hanoverian registration/brand.

    I agree with Hansiska. I think it is a smart move. It opens the door for more bloodline options. I choose stallions based on whether they are a good match for my mares, even if it means me taking them to be inspected/approved with other registries in order to get a foal eligible for registration. This will open up many more breeding options and make it easier for the breeder to find the best match for their mare.


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  5. #5
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    I think it's a timely move; it answers the "problem" I mentioned in recent thread here about breeding within the "confines" of one's registry. I do think it is important that they stay more closed and selective in terms of outside mare approval. They are different from most other registries in terms of mare selection because they require a specific type of mare from specific population and that mare must score on par or better than a States Premium Hanoverian mare to be accepted. If this rule were to go through the only thing that would change is that approved mares of non Hanoverian blood could be bred to approved Hanoverian stallions without Hanoverian blood. Ie, I could breed my Han approved Trakehner mare to Totilas and register the foal Hanoverian.

    Quality is not really the issue when it comes to top stallions from other registries. There are lots of really good stallions out there with lots to offer the Hanoverian mare base (I would think?). I am not saying they will all necessarily work well, but they are certainly of good enough quality and of the right breeding to offer potential.
    www.svhanoverians.com

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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donella View Post
    If this rule were to go through the only thing that would change is that approved mares of non Hanoverian blood could be bred to approved Hanoverian stallions without Hanoverian blood. Ie, I could breed my Han approved Trakehner mare to Totilas and register the foal Hanoverian.
    It might also mean that you could breed your Hanoverian-approved TB mare to a Hanoverian-licensed TB stallion and get a "Hanoverian." I'm not convinced yet that this would be an altogether desirable outcome though my views may well be in the minority.
    Last edited by Bent Hickory; Dec. 14, 2012 at 11:26 AM.
    "That is why you have a pony..." - Edgewood, 2011


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  7. #7
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    I must say I am of one mind with Hansiska and Donella on the points made .... except that I also agree with Bent Hickory, that in some very few cases it could have weird consequences. I hope they temper that part of the amendment to ensure there are no 100% non-Hanoverian-bloodlines offspring eligible for branding.


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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunnydays View Post
    I must say I am of one mind with Hansiska and Donella on the points made .... except that I also agree with Bent Hickory, that in some very few cases it could have weird consequences. I hope they temper that part of the amendment to ensure there are no 100% non-Hanoverian-bloodlines offspring eligible for branding.
    Agree 100%. It opens new possibilities that I welcome, but I too hope that there will be no possibility of the scenario BH mentions.


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  9. #9
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    International Top Stallions
    In order to allow an easier approval of stallions which are part of the international world top, these stallions can be approved for Hanover without being presented at the Hanoverian licensing.
    So, is this based PURELY on performance? their conformation not going to be assessed? What about radiograph review and the health screen?

    I realize that whenever the HV has tried to protect their breeders from stallions based in other registries that have conformation concerns or concerns about suitability to the Hanoverian marebase, they have been forced to backpedal and accept the stallion anyway a year or two down the road because of the hue and cry. Without further information, I read this rule change as either "bowing to the marketplace forces" or abdicating the responsibility to protect the membership ....depending on how you want to spin it.

    - Wider Breeding Spectrum
    According to the plans of the Board the so-called 50% rule will disappear in future. This means that all registered mares can then be paired to all registered stallions and the consequent foal can get a Hanoverian brand.
    'm not reading this to be any different from AHS rules. It says registered. In my mind that means a mare with a Hanoverian foal brand (which means there are actual Hanoverian bloodlines in her pedigree somewhere). The way I'm reading the statement, it does NOT mean an HV approved Holsteiner mare bred to an approved Hanoverian TB sire gets to registered Hanoverian.

    If this IS what this means that is not, in my opinion, a good thing. The Hanoverian product is fairly consistent. That consistency can be traced to moderately consolidated bloodlines. I'm certainly not disputing that outcrossing is a good thing. It is. But ideally you outcross and then re-visit the bloodlines you wish to preserve. Otherwise, you could get a whole lot of "where did THAT come from".
    "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin


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  10. #10
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    To be clear, the so-called "50% rule" by definition deals with breeding animals from outside breeding populations and the registerability of the offspring from these animals. The high-level purpose of the rule was to ensure that an outside (i.e., non-Hanoverian) mare could only be bred to a Hanoverian stallion and an outside stallion could only be bred to Hanoverian mares, all animals being otherwise approved for Hanoverian breeding. (How else are you bringing in "outside" blood if its not actually being mixed with your existing blood?) Overall, the rule prevents the "anomalies" of a TB mare being bred to a Holsteiner stallion and the offspring being deemed a "Hanoverian" or a Holsteiner mare being bred to a Holsteiner stallion and the offspring being deemed a "Hanoverian." The "50%" rule also recognizes the marginal cases where an Oldenburg mare descending from Hanoverian blood lines really should be able to breed to the same stallions as a "Hanoverian" mare and similarly with stallions.

    To my mind, removing the "50% rule" in the context of opening the registry means no restrictions on the registerability of the offspring from any Hanoverian-approved parents regardless of whether there is ANY Hanoverian blood whatsoever in parents or the resulting offspring. This means that full-blooded TBs and full-blooded Holsteiners (and countless other permutations of these and other non-Hanoverian breeds/registries) could be registered as Hanoverians so long as both parents were approved for breeding. This means that the Hanoverian breeding societies become far less a "breed" and far more a pure "registry."
    Last edited by Bent Hickory; Dec. 14, 2012 at 03:39 PM.
    "That is why you have a pony..." - Edgewood, 2011


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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bent Hickory View Post
    It might also mean that you could breed your Hanoverian-approved TB mare to a Hanoverian-licensed TB stallion and get a "Hanoverian." I'm not convinced yet that this would be an altogether desirable outcome though my views may well be in the minority.
    I don't think so. It says any registered Hanoverian mare not any mare approved Hanoverian.
    Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonesta View Post
    I don't think so. It says any registered Hanoverian mare not any mare approved Hanoverian.
    This is an issue of either improper translation or poor word choice. If it's truly meant to be "registered Hanoverians" such a change would mean the breeding philosophy is becoming MORE restrictive than the existing philosophy and that clearly is contrary to the overall message of the article.
    Last edited by Bent Hickory; Dec. 14, 2012 at 03:12 PM.
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  13. #13
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    So, from the perspective of my fellow Hanoverian breeders, how "open" is too "open" or are the proposals referenced in Euro-Dressage article not "open" enough?
    "That is why you have a pony..." - Edgewood, 2011



  14. #14
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    I don't think so. It says any registered Hanoverian mare not any mare approved Hanoverian


    It's a typo.

    So, from the perspective of my fellow Hanoverian breeders, how "open" is too "open" or are the proposals referenced in Euro-Dressage article not "open" enough?

    I think quality control comes in through the mare base. Most stallions with any of the major registries that have passed stringent performance tests ect are not going to diminish the overall quality of the Hanoverian breed. As a Hanoverian breeder I would be totally fine, happy in fact, if they were more open in their approval of stallions.

    Conversely, I believe they need to stay the way they are with their mare base, very selective in terms of what they approve. I believe that the overall quality of a sport horse breed is directly related to the overall quality of it's mare base and you only retain quality through strict selection.
    www.svhanoverians.com

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  15. #15
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    I breed a few Hanoverians each year and have a devil of a time finding suitable matches for my mares because many are unavailable in NZ due to import regulations. On a purely selfish level, opening the stallion base up will make my life a lot easier!

    But I also agree that the mare base should be preserved and that a horse with no Hano blood should not be considered a full Hanoverian.



  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bent Hickory View Post
    It might also mean that you could breed your Hanoverian-approved TB mare to a Hanoverian-licensed TB stallion and get a "Hanoverian." I'm not convinced yet that this would be an altogether desirable outcome though my views may well be in the minority.
    My friend, who breeds TBs for eventing took a tour a few years ago of Hanoverian breeding farms in Germany, and one of the farms on the tour WAS breeding TBs to TBs and branding them Hanoverian. The guide told them it was a special farm to breed eventers. She was quite shocked as she knew of the 50% rule.



  17. #17
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    Sounds like your friend was at Fritz Butt's (breeder of Butts Abbraxxas and other top and Olympic eventers). I thought someone already mentioned him.

    http://www.georgenhof.net/fritz-butt-engl.html
    Kendra -- Runningwater Warmbloods
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bent Hickory View Post
    To be clear, the so-called "50% rule" by definition deals with breeding animals from outside breeding populations and the registerability of the offspring from these animals. The high-level purpose of the rule was to ensure that an outside (i.e., non-Hanoverian) mare could only be bred to a Hanoverian stallion and an outside stallion could only be bred to Hanoverian mares, all animals being otherwise approved for Hanoverian breeding. (How else are you bringing in "outside" blood if its not actually being mixed with your existing blood?) Overall, the rule prevents the "anomalies" of a TB mare being bred to a Holsteiner stallion and the offspring being deemed a "Hanoverian" or a Holsteiner mare being bred to a Holsteiner stallion and the offspring being deemed a "Hanoverian." The "50%" rule also recognizes the marginal cases where an Oldenburg mare descending from Hanoverian blood lines really should be able to breed to the same stallions as a "Hanoverian" mare and similarly with stallions.

    To my mind, removing the "50% rule" in the context of opening the registry means no restrictions on the registerability of the offspring from any Hanoverian-approved parents regardless of whether there is ANY Hanoverian blood whatsoever in parents or the resulting offspring. This means that full-blooded TBs and full-blooded Holsteiners (and countless other permutations of these and other non-Hanoverian breeds/registries) could be registered as Hanoverians so long as both parents were approved for breeding. This means that the Hanoverian breeding societies become far less a "breed" and far more a pure "registry."

    this is pretty much a reverse of what the Hanoverian Verband forced upon the AHS over 20 years ago when they needed to create an export market and had noticed we had begun producing great horses here in the USA - they restricted mares bred specifically for the AHS books from becoming dams of fully approved stallions( sons) or elite eligible ( mares) offspring and tried to revoke licenses of American bred stallions that had successfully completed their 100 day test .. All to improve the export market in Germany. We had 5 mares downgraded or not allowed to be presented for breeding approvall, one of these the second highest scoring in the USA, an "Elite mare", dam of Elite daughters and an approved son. Their reasoning was the lack of " proper gene pool" among US mares... Ironically, several years later , I had several Germans contacting me looking for quality TB mares to modernize their own breeding programs in Europe. Had we stumbled upon something with our readily available
    (and more modern) TB genepool of mares?


    The current trend to allow horses born in the USA to obtain Hannoveranner Verband registration is their next marketing effort to keep the funding flowing. This is exactly as was done with the GOV / Old NA, maybe not for the same reasons. Why register your Hanoverian with the AHS when u can get Verband papers so your American bred has the same exact paperwork as an import? Have they started sending separate ( vs those on the AHS Inspection tour) inspection judging teams to the USA to facilitate this yet?

    Europeans are suffering the changes in the economy as well, and looking for innovative new ways to generate income to assist their breeders and to market their own associations and members horses. Its always been about the money.

    I saw the writing on the wall when our family got caught with our knickers down so long ago. ALL of my mares are now registered with the American Warmblood Registry and are eligible to be approved with others- including the AHS.

    When an American Warmblood is exported to Europe, it is immediately inspected with a registry there and suddenly ..."discovered"

    Wakey wakey
    Last edited by MagicRoseFarm; Dec. 20, 2012 at 01:48 PM. Reason: clarify terms
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fairview Horse Center View Post
    My friend, who breeds TBs for eventing took a tour a few years ago of Hanoverian breeding farms in Germany, and one of the farms on the tour WAS breeding TBs to TBs and branding them Hanoverian. The guide told them it was a special farm to breed eventers. She was quite shocked as she knew of the 50% rule.
    IS that possibly because the 50% rule only applied OUTSIDE the breeding region of Hannover Germany
    "It's not how good you ride, It's how good your horse covers for you." -Kristan
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRoseFarm View Post
    ...our readily available
    (and more modern) TB genepool of mares?
    Hmmm, the typical modern TB is bred for precocious speed, which means short distances, which means they are built more like sprinters (I saw some TB stallions in Lexington a few years ago that were built more like Quarter Horses - very high behind - and this was at a well known racing stallion station). That is not a conformation I would want in a sport horse breeding program.

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRoseFarm View Post
    When an American Warmblood is exported to Europe, it is immediately approved with a registry there and suddenly ..."discovered"
    Immediately approved? Not sure which European registry you are referring to, but for the German Verbands, it would have to meet the pedigree requirements of the approving registry, pass inspection, and - if a stallion, meet the approving registry's performance requirements. So maybe not so "immediate".



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