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  1. #81
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    Jan. 30, 2010
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    Alberta
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    3,754

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    Taking out the emotions, this is an interesting ethical question.

    My thought is: if the seller didn't "own" the x-rays, so didn't have a copy, then comments on the -x-rays would be based on what they were told by the previous potential buyer, correct? In this case I think it would be somewhat unethical to mention anything from the x-rays as "fact", other than perhaps to say " a previous buyer had him vetted, and they only mentionned a minor issue with the front feet. As i feel he is sound I didn't bother to buy the x-rays, or re-x-ray him, but you are of course welcome to" or some such.

    I do think the OP should have done a PPE, but also that the Seller should have had something in the sales agreement about the previous vet check if they wanted to go for full disclosure. If they wanted to go with no disclosure, then they should not have mentionned the x-rays at all.

    I am assuming the seller was at the PPE (the "failed" one) and either heard the vet say the horse was "clean" in the hocks, or the potential buyer told them that, but it is important to keep in mind that the vet may know the buyer's tolerance level, and may consider minor changes clean enough. The vet wasn't working for the seller, and so the seller should not assume the vet was fully disclosing the results and so should not pass the results on as "facts" unless they had the full results turned over...which didn't happen.

    My conclusion is that both parties are at fault, and that neither one is behaving in proffessional manner after the fact. I hope the horse finds a new, suitable home.


    22 members found this post helpful.

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Sep. 8, 1999
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    Libertyville, IL USA
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    4,108

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    OMG! I never log in anymore, because I have vowed to only lurk. I did not even know you could thumbs up or thumbs down a post. LOVE IT!

    Totally agree on the app to alert you to a train wreck. While I no longer participate, I do enjoy a good train wreck.

    And in an effort to keep my perfect 1 thumb up rating from a post I wrote in the last decade, I decline to state my position. Oh, okay. Naming names is just bad form. OP wasn't looking for an answer, she was looking to slander.


    26 members found this post helpful.

  3. #83
    Join Date
    Apr. 29, 2011
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,132

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    Well, Gry, you just got another
    Barn rat for life

    The Big Horse


    6 members found this post helpful.

  4. #84
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    Sep. 8, 1999
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    Libertyville, IL USA
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    4,108

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    As did you wcporter. LMAO!

    OMGosh. Just got the big thumbs down! Twice! and so did you wcporter! Bad, bad.
    Last edited by Gry2Yng; Dec. 10, 2012 at 04:23 PM. Reason: to acknowledge the OP's dislike for my posts


    6 members found this post helpful.

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Apr. 29, 2011
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    Maryland
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    2,132

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    Welcome to the club!
    Barn rat for life

    The Big Horse


    4 members found this post helpful.

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Oct. 21, 1999
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    12,424

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    Oh, what the heck. I haven't gotten a thumbs-down in a while. I don't have an opinion on this particular situation. It is much too "he said, she said" like most things on a BB. There is nothing here that we can validate as fact.

    What I do think is that it was in exceptionally bad taste for the OP to bring this up with such specificity here. It smacks too much of someone trying to get back, or, even worse, to ruin another person's reputation. An internet BB isn't the place to do that, if there is ever a place. Suck it up, OP and admit that you were in error to not do a PPE. Then go about your business of selling the horse, hoping all the while that not too many people have read your diatribe on here and are now afraid to deal with you.

    And, by the way, if I have to wear thongs, I'm taking my granny pants and leaving.
    Originally Posted by Alagirl
    We just love to shame poor people...when in reality, we are all just peasants.


    21 members found this post helpful.

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Apr. 20, 2009
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    Raeford, North Carolina
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    2,879

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    I think we need a thumb hotline. Our mystery thumber is very busy.
    "Drawing on my fine command of the English language, I said nothing" - Robert Benchley
    Cotton would fight.
    http://buildingthegrove.blogspot.com/


    7 members found this post helpful.

  8. #88
    Join Date
    Nov. 9, 2007
    Posts
    137

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    The old saying comes to mind here 'Caveat Emptor' Let the buyer beware...

    Like my hubby always says, there are 3 sides to every story, yours, mine and the truth....
    carry on


    6 members found this post helpful.

  9. #89
    Join Date
    Apr. 30, 2002
    Location
    Looking up
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    6,220

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAyers View Post
    This is the eventing forum? For a second I thought I walked into h/j land.
    Mods...time to shut'er down I think....
    "Passion, though a bad regulator, is a powerful spring." -- Emerson
    www.eventhorse.wordpress.com


    7 members found this post helpful.

  10. #90
    Join Date
    Sep. 7, 2009
    Location
    Lexington, KY
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    18,515

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    Quote Originally Posted by D1nOnlyRocketPony View Post
    come to think of it - there should be a phone app for alerting you of a potential COTH train wreck in progress......

    if Krispy Kreme has an app to tell you when the light is on (signaling hot fresh doughnuts), certainly there should be a train wreck warning app.......
    You just have to have the right friends.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    6 members found this post helpful.

  11. #91
    Join Date
    Dec. 14, 2007
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    426

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    Is this a sales pitch to sell a sound 17.2 hand gray tb? And what is the name of the today's other train wreck thread? TIA


    4 members found this post helpful.

  12. #92
    Join Date
    May. 25, 2005
    Location
    Illinois
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    147

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    Quote Originally Posted by CHT View Post
    Taking out the emotions, this is an interesting ethical question.

    My thought is: if the seller didn't "own" the x-rays, so didn't have a copy, then comments on the -x-rays would be based on what they were told by the previous potential buyer, correct? In this case I think it would be somewhat unethical to mention anything from the x-rays as "fact", other than perhaps to say " a previous buyer had him vetted, and they only mentionned a minor issue with the front feet. As i feel he is sound I didn't bother to buy the x-rays, or re-x-ray him, but you are of course welcome to" or some such..
    In addition to the ethical question(s) this raises, there are also some legal questions. X-rays technically belong to the veterinarian who took them. The horse's owner may choose to ask for and purchase copies of the x-rays, but would NOT typically be given copies as a matter of course, and would NOT normally given the originals. If a horse that has been x-rayed by, and at the expense of, Owner A, is then sold to Owner B, Owner A may or may not have x-rays to pass along to the new owner. Meanwhile, the veterinarian cannot share the x-rays (originals OR copies) or information about the x-rays with anyone, even a prospective purchaser, without the permission of the horse's owner of record. If the would-be purchaser wants to see the horse's x-rays, s/he needs to obtain permission (in the form of a signed letter) from the horse's actual owner; she can then see or perhaps even obtain a copy of the veterinarian's x-rays.

    Of course, some veterinarians may choose to observe different protocols, but what I've outlined above is industry standard. (Full disclosure: for many years, I wrote a column for Equine Veterinary Management, on many different topics but always with the goal of helping clients and vets understand one another better.)

    Obviously it's always best to arrange for your own set of x-rays as part of a PPE, assuming that you are going to set up a PPE and that you want x-rays to be part of it. Old x-rays are generally not useful unless they indicate a "red light" condition, or unless the purchaser and vet can use those earlier x-rays as a baseline to compare with the new x-rays. This can tell you how far a worrisome condition has advanced in the intervening years, or whether it has advanced at all.

    It is, IMO, a mistake for any buyer who wants x-rays to rely on x-rays produced by the seller. Those x-rays might be old enough to fail to reveal a problem that has developed in the years/months/weeks since they were taken. And then there are sellers who have a single set of beautiful x-rays, copies of which are produced whenever anyone expresses an interest in purchasing ANY one of the seller's hundred horses... I once knew a trainer/dealer who did this all the time. If someone is investing in a horse and feels that a PPE is worthwhile, it makes sense to get a set of x-rays as part of that PPE. That way, not only does the purchaser KNOW that the x-rays are (a) current, and (b) of that particular horse, but s/he can also specify the number and level (feet only? hocks? etc.) of the images taken. Digital radiology has made all of this a lot easier.
    Home page: www.jessicajahiel.com
    Horse-Sense newsletter: www.horse-sense.org


    8 members found this post helpful.

  13. #93
    Join Date
    Sep. 8, 1999
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    Libertyville, IL USA
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    4,108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasde2 View Post
    And then there are sellers who have a single set of beautiful x-rays, copies of which are produced whenever anyone expresses an interest in purchasing ANY one of the seller's hundred horses...
    Ah, yes. Always good to get a reminder of this tried and true strategy.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  14. #94
    Join Date
    Aug. 4, 2009
    Location
    MD
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    4,111

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    In addition to the ethical question(s) this raises, there are also some legal questions. X-rays technically belong to the veterinarian who took them. The horse's owner may choose to ask for and purchase copies of the x-rays, but would NOT typically be given copies as a matter of course, and would NOT normally given the originals. If a horse that has been x-rayed by, and at the expense of, Owner A, is then sold to Owner B, Owner A may or may not have x-rays to pass along to the new owner. Meanwhile, the veterinarian cannot share the x-rays (originals OR copies) or information about the x-rays with anyone, even a prospective purchaser, without the permission of the horse's owner of record. If the would-be purchaser wants to see the horse's x-rays, s/he needs to obtain permission (in the form of a signed letter) from the horse's actual owner; she can then see or perhaps even obtain a copy of the veterinarian's x-rays.
    100% correct....but w/ a small correct permission must be obtained from the Person who paid for those films whether it be horses owner or a prospective buyer..


    7 members found this post helpful.

  15. #95
    Join Date
    Apr. 29, 2011
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    Maryland
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    2,132

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    Quote Originally Posted by ACMEeventing View Post
    I think we need a thumb hotline. Our mystery thumber is very busy.
    I def. have more than one thumb's downer. I think after this thread I've now got a fan club of them
    Barn rat for life

    The Big Horse


    4 members found this post helpful.

  16. #96
    Join Date
    Sep. 7, 2009
    Location
    Lexington, KY
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasde2 View Post
    I X-rays technically belong to the veterinarian who took them. The horse's owner may choose to ask for and purchase copies of the x-rays, but would NOT typically be given copies as a matter of course, and would NOT normally given the originals. If a horse that has been x-rayed by, and at the expense of, Owner A, is then sold to Owner B, Owner A may or may not have x-rays to pass along to the new owner. Meanwhile, the veterinarian cannot share the x-rays (originals OR copies) or information about the x-rays with anyone, even a prospective purchaser, without the permission of the horse's owner of record.
    Actually, at least in Kentucky, the person who is the vet's client has to give permission...they may or may not be the horse's owner.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    5 members found this post helpful.

  17. #97
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    Apr. 20, 2009
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    Raeford, North Carolina
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    Quote Originally Posted by wcporter View Post
    I def. have more than one thumb's downer. I think after this thread I've now got a fan club of them
    Aw, don't let it get you down. 8 thumbs up trumps 2 thumbs down . . . Or something like that.



    Edited to add: ok, how is this "thumbs down" worthy? Don't feel bad wcporter, I think the red thumb fan club is growing.
    Last edited by ACMEeventing; Dec. 10, 2012 at 08:50 PM. Reason: Silly thumbs
    "Drawing on my fine command of the English language, I said nothing" - Robert Benchley
    Cotton would fight.
    http://buildingthegrove.blogspot.com/


    4 members found this post helpful.

  18. #98
    Join Date
    Mar. 22, 2005
    Location
    Where it is perpetually winter
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    Not knowing either of the people in this situation (and therefore having no dog in this fight), I think it's in extremely poor taste to make a thread like this. It really doesn't accomplish anything - in this case, it makes the OP look less than respectable and JBRP is in a tough spot because if she responds, some people think that's poor form, but if she doesn't, people might think she has something to hide.

    If I'm understanding this correctly, the horse is sound and doing its job properly, and has been since the OP purchased it a year ago. The horse apparently had a past case of mild laminitis, which the seller may/not have known about. The OP is trying to sell the horse and a buyer walked away because of the previous history, despite the fact that the horse is sound?

    As an aside, I sold a pony years ago who, upon doing the PPE, had a mild OCD lesion on one stifle. I didn't NOT disclose that to the buyer before a PPE; I bought the pony as a 2-year-old and didn't do stifle rads. He was sound and doing his job comfortably. If the buyer hadn't taken stifle x-rays, I never would have known about the lesion. If that buyer had come onto a forum and trashed me, it would have been an issue.


    13 members found this post helpful.

  19. #99
    Join Date
    Mar. 6, 2002
    Location
    Oregon
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    5,950

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    Yet another reason for both sides to put (and get) EVERYTHING in writing. That way, whatever is actually the truth of both sides' claims is plain and clear and won't ever need to be aired soap-opera-style on COTH again.

    Gah.
    What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what
    lies with in us. - Emerson


    4 members found this post helpful.

  20. #100
    Join Date
    Jun. 24, 2004
    Location
    South Park
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    3,212

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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Actually, at least in Kentucky, the person who is the vet's client has to give permission...they may or may not be the horse's owner.
    That's how I understand it.
    Usually, prospective buyers are the ones doing the PPE and they are not the owner, yet they "own" the XRays and may chose to release them or not.
    A friend told me I was delusional. I almost fell off my unicorn.


    3 members found this post helpful.

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