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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    its not about blaming its about taking responsibility for your riding - saying the horse did x actually means i wasn't able to ride x in a manner that resulted in a good outcome.

    riders will only progress and have "fun" once they realize that they are responsible for each outcome.

    and yes, horses are horses but still - 99% of the time the outcome is due to the rider....

    sooo..... all of that just means that for those that keep saying my horse does "x" i suggest turning it around into an "i" statement. that direction leads to progress and fun - if for no other reason than the understanding that the rider has control over the outcomes for the vast majority of situations. and *that* leads to confidence, understaading, learning, progress, and yes, more fun
    I had a student with an absolute pig of a mare. She would spin and drop a shoulder and plant your butt on the ground if there was any chance she could get away with it. I could ride the mare successfully and she wouldn't try me, but her owner was an adult beginner that the mare had intimidated into backing down and staying hesitant. We worked hard to mend that gap between them but before we got to that elusive 'fun' of which you speak...the mare bolted in hand, double-barrelling behind her as she left, catching her owner in the wrist and the ribs. I had her butt sold and gone within the month, with full disclosure, to a more advanced rider.

    Today that mare's former owner has a new horse, a sweet little mare that she merrily rides bareback all over hill and dale -trotting and cantering everywhere, out in the woods alone- those two are a great team.

    But nooo, she really should have kept that piggy witch so that she could make 'progress'. So she could 'evolve'.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/rockand...n/photostream/


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  2. #82
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    I can kind of see mbm's point, but I'm not sure it applies to the OP's situation, especially after eventer_mi chimed in with her perspective.

    I had a difficult horse. Like, I got him because my trainer COULDN'T sell him. THAT kind of difficult. Differences between my situation and OP's:

    1. We only did dressage. Spinning and naughtiness are one thing, but trying to JUMP over solid obstacles at a gallop while dealing with spinning and naughtiness is, imo, NOT an amateur's job.
    2. I had no other option: it was that (free) horse or none.
    3. I knew going into it that he could be difficult.
    4. I was in full-time lessons with an FEI rider who is a 6'5" man who is happy to hop on and sort something out when need be. (I admit there were MANY times in the beginning that this was required; without him I absolutely would not have succeeded with this horse.)

    OP, I've known first-hand an FEI-quality dressage horse that threw fits and got people hurt for a few YEARS before a trainer with jumping ability got her hands on him, and what do you know, less than 6 months later he's an AO jumper and quite happy and good at his job, and his new Ammy owner loves him.

    It sounds to me like it would be a good idea to investigate other jobs for this horse to do.
    In order to think outside the box, one must first know what is in the box.


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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    it's fine to sell a horse that you don't click with - but at least acknowledge (as the OP has) that she doesn't have the skill set for this particular horse.

    its not fair to the horse for it to be responsible for the riders fun. and for sure the rider will get further and have more fun if they look to themselves first.

    pretty much the majority of instances posted here of horses being "bad" was the result of rider error. that is not a problem as long as the riders say "yep, my fault" and works hard to change themselves - because only then will the horse change.

    to blame the horse is bad horsemanship.
    I was going to say something, and then I read this, which pretty much covered it.

    I'd have WAY less a problem with the OP's attitude about this if the title of the thread had been "Bad Fit with Horse" or "Horse Has Habits I Can't Deal with At this Stage." The way it's worded now, it's expressed that the horse is the problem. And I agree, that's poor horsemanship.



  4. #84
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    My sweet mare can spin and bolt without so much as an ear twitch warning. I truly do not believe her intent was ever to dump me, she merely acts in a manner that will preserve her life from that scary chipmunk (or whatever).

    As a 3-4 year old, this was borderline dangerous, but I bred this horse (my first and only foal) with the intent that she will be mine forever, and I love her so much, so I was prepared to stick it out a lot longer than I would have if I didnt have such a vested interest. The fact that I almost have superglue breeches was helpful. I think that if I was getting dumped regularly, it may have ended differently.

    Now, 3 years later, the spin/spook is still in her but fairly rare and she has NEVER done it in front of a jump. I am quite certain that my confidence would not survive that sort of thing at a jump, let alone a XC jump. It would also take the fun out of eventing - the whole point of BN, N, T is FUN - if refusals and eliminations happened at many / most events, it just wouldnt be any fun.



  5. #85
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    I don't understand why some posters on this thread want to insist on people not having any fun. A bad fit is a bad fit. Why risk injury and misery to "become a better rider" if you don't want to? It doesn't have anything to do with horsemanship.

    There are plenty of horses out there that you can learn to be a better rider on that will not dump your ass into a fence.


    9 members found this post helpful.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by enjoytheride View Post
    I don't understand why some posters on this thread want to insist on people not having any fun. A bad fit is a bad fit. Why risk injury and misery to "become a better rider" if you don't want to? It doesn't have anything to do with horsemanship.

    There are plenty of horses out there that you can learn to be a better rider on that will not dump your ass into a fence.
    All of the above, and how appropriate given the posters name!

    I had a lovely TB mare during my first few years of college. Unfortunately I got her at exactly the WRONG time in my life. She was her lovely self when I could ride her 5 days a week over the summer. When I couldn't, we both suffered, but the situation clearly wasn't fair to her. I moved her along to a COTHer who then sold her to a PC kid. 4 ish years later I'm now leasing an older, QHX guy who is perfect for my needs. I wish I'd had him during college because I could have gotten away with riding him once or twice a week. The point is, our horse needs change depending on our situation. Amateur riders should not feel obligated to struggle through with a horse thats not working out for whatever reason. Apart from anything else, thats not fair on the horse either.
    "Choose to chance the rapids, and dare to dance the tides" - Garth Brooks
    "With your permission, dear, I'll take my fences one at a time" - Maggie Smith, Downton Abbey


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  7. #87
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    I'll probably get a bunch of red thumbs for this, but I'm wondering if the posters who think it's poor horsemanship to not keep trying with this horse do eventing as their primary discipline?

    I'm not saying this to be snarky, but I think an event horse especially has to love his job. It's pretty hard to "force" a horse to do cross country, as it is to "force" a horse to be a successful racehorse. If it is not in their hearts, it is much better for them to find a job that they enjoy and feel good about.

    Knowing when a horse needs a different job or a different partner is good horsemanship. It is taking into account the animals needs as well as our own.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by katarine View Post
    I had a student with an absolute pig of a mare.
    <snip>

    But nooo, she really should have kept that piggy witch so that she could make 'progress'. So she could 'evolve'.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/rockand...n/photostream/
    nowhere did i say that the OP should keep the horse - and in fact i said it should go to a trainer.

    what i did say is that blaming a horse (ie calling it a pig) is bad horsemanship


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  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkevent View Post
    I'll probably get a bunch of red thumbs for this, but I'm wondering if the posters who think it's poor horsemanship to not keep trying with this horse do eventing as their primary discipline?
    horsemanship.
    if you are responding to my posts - i never said the OP should keep the horse. and more specifically i was responding to many of the posts in this thread.



  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    nowhere did i say that the OP should keep the horse - and in fact i said it should go to a trainer.

    what i did say is that blaming a horse (ie calling it a pig) is bad horsemanship
    Are you really so limited and simple in your experience that you've never met an unpleasant horse that does not want to get along? You must be.

    Not all horses want to get along.
    Not all riders belong with all horses.
    Not all horses can excel with just anyone.

    Isn't that obvious if you have sufficient experience? You are showing your short deck, MBM: You simply cannot have much experience with many horses. My apologies for misunderstanding the depth of your experience, as your green beans are showing, plain as day.

    Send the horse to a trainer, you say...and then what?
    Then is it ok to sell him?
    Is it ok to sell him if she's wracked with guilt first?
    Or is it ok if she's just dulled to the whole deal?
    is that ok?
    When is it ok to say "I don't want this horse anymore". Ever?
    The third Tuesday of February?
    Maybe, if she cries first? Big, lurching sobs, or just quiet hitches?


    To make absolute and declarative statements like you make is to forget the first rule of horses, the rule that trumps all others:

    "It depends".



    Oink oink oink


    4 members found this post helpful.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    nowhere did i say that the OP should keep the horse - and in fact i said it should go to a trainer.

    what i did say is that blaming a horse (ie calling it a pig) is bad horsemanship
    Honestly, some horses just don't want to play with people. I have one. (I referenced him earlier in this thread.) I'm a pro. He's a lawn ornament. I got him out to do Christmas pictures the other day, took him two steps from his pasture. Literally. He could touch his buddy's nose. And he acted like a crazed maniac. He doesn't. Want. To. Play.


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  12. #92
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    Of course some horses don't want to play, and of course the rider/horse fit must be there, but given the original poster's information (particularly her repeatedly stating she's not in a position to give regular schooling over jumps) and the perspective from eventer_mi, is this horse really such a bad actor or just the other loser in the "poor fit" relationship? Eventer_mi did say the horse looked like it was spooking at the fence where the rider was thrown, which to me raises the possibility that the horse just needs more exposure/training/schooling than the OP has the time or facilities to give in her current situation.

    Like several others have said, noting the bad fit doesn't mean the OP is "sentenced" to this horse for life, just that maybe sending horsie to another trainer can reveal more (and hopefully better) information about the horse so that it is a more attractive prospect for others. Or, it will be additional confirmation that yep, this horse doesn't want to be an eventer. See what another trainer's perspective has to offer, and take it from there.

    None of that is to say the OP shouldn't find a horse she loves and feels confident on. And I really want to note that I certainly wouldn't want to tackle this horse's running out, either -- no way -- not claiming expertise here, only one outsider's perspective.
    "However complicated and remarkable the rest of his life was going to be, it was here now, come to claim him."- JoAnn Mapson


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  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by katarine View Post
    Are you really so limited and simple in your experience that you've never met an unpleasant horse that does not want to get along? You must be.

    Not all horses want to get along.
    Not all riders belong with all horses.
    Not all horses can excel with just anyone.

    Isn't that obvious if you have sufficient experience? You are showing your short deck, MBM: You simply cannot have much experience with many horses. My apologies for misunderstanding the depth of your experience, as your green beans are showing, plain as day.

    Send the horse to a trainer, you say...and then what?
    Then is it ok to sell him?
    Is it ok to sell him if she's wracked with guilt first?
    Or is it ok if she's just dulled to the whole deal?
    is that ok?
    When is it ok to say "I don't want this horse anymore". Ever?
    The third Tuesday of February?
    Maybe, if she cries first? Big, lurching sobs, or just quiet hitches?


    To make absolute and declarative statements like you make is to forget the first rule of horses, the rule that trumps all others:

    "It depends".



    Oink oink oink
    The "Oink oink oink" is your preferred mode of communication, apparently?
    You really are a nasty piece of work.
    I certainly hope you don't interact with either humans or horses for a living.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by katarine View Post
    Are you really so limited and simple in your experience that you've never met an unpleasant horse that does not want to get along? You must be.
    someone pee in your conflakes today?

    fwiw, to state a horse "doesn't want to play" based on one or two people dealing with it is just sad. sure there may be horses that don't get along with certain folks, but in general that is the handlers fault - not the horses.

    so generally when a rider has a problem with a horse - the best thing to do is find a more experienced/different person that can work with the horse to find out what the actual issues are.

    and fwiw, i never said the OP had to keep her horse - i suggested sending it to a trainer. how that is interpreted as her having to keep it is beyond me.



  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by katarine View Post
    I had a student with an absolute pig of a mare. She would spin and drop a shoulder and plant your butt on the ground if there was any chance she could get away with it. I could ride the mare successfully and she wouldn't try me, but her owner was an adult beginner that the mare had intimidated into backing down and staying hesitant. We worked hard to mend that gap between them but before we got to that elusive 'fun' of which you speak...the mare bolted in hand, double-barrelling behind her as she left, catching her owner in the wrist and the ribs. I had her butt sold and gone within the month, with full disclosure, to a more advanced rider.

    Today that mare's former owner has a new horse, a sweet little mare that she merrily rides bareback all over hill and dale -trotting and cantering everywhere, out in the woods alone- those two are a great team.

    But nooo, she really should have kept that piggy witch so that she could make 'progress'. So she could 'evolve'.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/rockand...n/photostream/
    btw your above post is exactly what i am talking about. your "pig" of a mare would work well with you, but not with her less experienced rider - and she ended up with a more advanced rider who could handle her.

    not sure why you are taking this all so personally?



  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    all of that just means that for those that keep saying my horse does "x" i suggest turning it around into an "i" statement. that direction leads to progress and fun - if for no other reason than the understanding that the rider has control over the outcomes for the vast majority of situations. and *that* leads to confidence, understaading, learning, progress, and yes, more fun
    We used to have a pony at our barn that would buck his owner off on a regular basis. He would wait to feel her lose her balance and he would buck her off the second she started to tip. She was particularly vulnerable after jumps. I couldn't get him to buck with me. He wouldn't even try, but he knew the feeling he was looking for, and when he felt a rider go there, he helped them off. Yes, the rider was getting unbalanced, but the horse was also taking advantage in a big way. The poor kid was not having any fun and was getting very scared to jump. It was much easier on all involved to put her on an APPROPRIATE pony that would not buck her off as soon as she lost her balance. She got her confidence back and was able to improve and grow without spitting dirt out after every ride. The pony went on to have great success with another kid with a more secure position. The bucking was not caused by the rider - yes, she was particularly vulnerable and her lack of balance "triggered" the bucking, but MOST horses are not going to go all bronco every time they feel a rider lose their balance.

    It sounds to me like the OP is not equipped to deal with a horse that will drop it's shoulder and spin. She's not the person to try and fix the issue. Sure, a pro may be able to fix it, but it sounds like the rider does not have the tools to deal with it. The horse may always be a dirty stopper as soon as it feels the rider start to waver. It also might go around just fine till it feels the rider waver, and then it will continue to spin and try to dump. Why would any ammy on limited resources want to jump something that was just waiting for them to mess up? The horse has to be give a little some of the time and it sounds like this one is not at this point. Something must change, whether it's finding a trainer to ride the horse, or finding the horse a new owner/job where it is a better match.

    There are plenty of good horses out there who will take care of a rider when the rider makes a mistake or loses confidence. A rider should not be shamed into keeping on with a horse they have little or no chance of success with. Now if the rider realizes that she's getting a string of horses stopping with her, maybe then she should re-evaluate, but until she comes back posting that "all the horses she's riding are nasty stoppers, I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt that the horse MIGHT be contributing to the problem.

    Personally, my ego is not so great that I'm going to continue to fumble along in a frustrating or dangerous situation. There are all types of horses for all types of riders. I have no interest in spending my limited resources on the hot horses I loved in my youth. These days I recognize my limits. I can ride two to three times a week. It's expensive but I do it because it's fun. My reflexes are not as fast as they once were. Any horse that I am going to support is going to pick up some of my slack and be an honest citizen, or else it will find an owner who is a better match.

    Everyone has their own priorities, and whatever they are, it's their own business. Some folks make the barn their priority and will make time for those extra rides and those extra lessons. Other people have to make their jobs or school or their families a priority. Neither is right or wrong. They're just different, and based upon what a person's priorities are, they're going to need to take a hard look at the type of horse they choose to own, and what their goals are.
    The rebel in the grey shirt


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  17. #97
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    When the OP is told she's a bad horseman because she's tired of getting chucked into fences, the momma bear in me comes out.

    Riding is not supposed to be a penance, or a journey someone else mapped out for you. It's a uniquely personal relationship between horse and rider, and I defend this OP's right to say "I don't want to work with this horse anymore"- she has that right. To judge her, call her opinions 'sad', to call her horsemanship bad, to say she should stay in the game with this horse, solve the puzzle, engage, learn, seek, push, try harder, try differently, more more more....It's ugly and smothering and disrespectful of her rights as a human being. And it also disrespects the horse who by all appearances, doesn't really dig this here jumping business.

    Shoving round pegs into square holes yields splinters. That's not sad. It's just true.


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  18. #98
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    OP, I don't have anything constructive to add to this, but I do want to say I would really heed the post coming from the person who knows the situation in real life. It's easy to armchair quarterback from a bulletin board, but advice from someone who has repeatedly laid eyes on this horse is much more valuable IMHO. Good luck to you and the horse!


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  19. #99
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    This is probably the most responses I've posted to any thread but it really hits home for me.

    I get the feeling the OP has limited resources to put into lessons or sending a horse to a trainer. She seems to have exhausted all the possible physical causes for the horses issues.

    There gets to be a point where you just get tired of spending money and time and hope against hope that it will get better. Sometimes it does not.

    The OP is not threatening to send the horse to slaughter or somewhere bad. She has realized that she and this horse do not match. She doesn't want to play the game anymore than the horse does. What could be so wrong with cutting your losses and finding an appropriate home for this horse?

    Sometimes giving the horse away to someone equipped to deal with him is the right thing to do.

    There is nothing more joy sucking than having to ride a horse that you no longer want to ride. Pros can at least view it as a source of income and therefore rationalize it but for ammies it is nothing but a confidence crusher. How many people get out of horses after an experience like this? Especially if they get badly injured.


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  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by katarine View Post
    When the OP is told she's a bad horseman because she's tired of getting chucked into fences, the momma bear in me comes out.

    Riding is not supposed to be a penance, or a journey someone else mapped out for you. It's a uniquely personal relationship between horse and rider, and I defend this OP's right to say "I don't want to work with this horse anymore"- she has that right. To judge her, call her opinions 'sad', to call her horsemanship bad, to say she should stay in the game with this horse, solve the puzzle, engage, learn, seek, push, try harder, try differently, more more more....It's ugly and smothering and disrespectful of her rights as a human being. And it also disrespects the horse who by all appearances, doesn't really dig this here jumping business.

    Shoving round pegs into square holes yields splinters. That's not sad. It's just true.
    if you and others would read what i actually wrote instead of adding your own spin to it you would see that i NEVER said the OP (or anyone else) had to keep a horse they didn't like riding... what i said was instead of saying "that horse is a blasted pig and does x y z to me" it is more helpful (even as that horse is out the door to someone else) to say "i was not able to ride said horse because my skills were not up to it. " the reason why this is so powerful a statement is because it shows the rider the solution to the problem - they are not equipped to ride such a horse and need to a) get more lessons and b) find a horse that allowed for a less perfect seat.

    it is taking responsibility for your riding and not giving that power away to the horse - who after all is just a horse.

    for folks reading more into this i would suggest looking at your own self here.....


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