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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    well sure we can sell on any horse that doesn't work as we wish - but exactly *when* does the rider take responsibility and work on their own issues instead of blaming the horse?

    seems like a never ending cycle until this happens.....
    As an amateur rider, with limited time, it is more prudent to own a horse you can do what you want with, than own a horse that constantly causes you heartache. Horses are to expensive to not enjoy. Bornfreenowexpensive makes some good points on this.

    I cannot stand people saying that an amateur rider should just deal with the horse they have - it is unpleasant and could be dangerous. As long as you are not leaving a string of horses with the same behavioral problem, then there is no harm in moving a horse along that you do not click with. Not everyone will like the same type of ride.

    Quote Originally Posted by ideayoda View Post
    I guess I have never had the luxury of giving up on a horse, and all sales were after the horses were schooled.

    Horses imho are never intentionally 'naughty'. The lack of a particular behavior has a basis and a solution. Horses will always find the 'error in the program'/weaknesses in the rider, so we have to find the solutions. Particular solutions.
    I disagree with this. The gelding that my trainer lets me ride at times will specifically not going into any more of a frame than you make him. Jumping, you can sit on his head and he will go over the jump. Dressage is a bit different.

    The mare that I was bringing back into work decided she didn't want to play at the last horse trials and ducked out left or right from almost every jump - followed by bolting. If she ducked out left and I was stronger on the left the next time around, she may jump that jump, but then duck out right on the next one! These issues will be fixed this coming season. She may be similar to the gelding, in that she didn't work in a while. She never went to a show under saddle prior to last summer, though and stood in a field for 5 years or so, prior to that. So she is rebelling the plan to bring her out of retirement at the "ripe old" age of about 11.

    My mare also had some problems with jumping in that the jumps were evil monsters out to get her. As an ammy, I could have easily sold her to a trail home as she loved trail riding, but I decided to keep working with her. We did not get as far as I wanted, but we did get over many issues. Of course, this did lead to some defensive riding on my part that I am now working on fixing.

    So yeah, horses are just not always good for the job you want them to do and yes, they can have attitudes.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  2. #62
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    Nov. 25, 2009
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    I fought for 5 years with a poorly matched horse. (also a bit of a headcase, but that's another story) I finally had that moment of, "yes, I CAN do this. I've done it for 5yrs. but I don't WANT to anymore." Best decision I ever made. Not every horse and rider are a good fit. If we did in human/dating relationships what we often do with the wrong horse, people would say we're crazy, and rightly so. It's supposed to be fun and not a near-death experience.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  3. #63
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    It's a different story in my mind if the horse wasn't pitching the OP into jumps. That's unacceptable. It's not fun, it's not good for the OP's confidence*, and it's not safe. Just because she owns the horse doesn't mean she's got to jump it around CC. Tune him up, put a pro on if it helps put together a good dressage or H/J vid, and find him a good home doing something he likes.

    Now, I'd be all on board with MBM and IdeaYoda if the OP's story was "All of my horses put the haunches in to the left no matter what direction I go. Should I sell my horse?" Because that's likely solely pilot error. A horse that throws in dirty stops might be pilot error, but it's unsafe to fix if your breeches don't come with superglue fullseats.

    In other words, you can learn just as much about riding from a horse that's not trying to kill you. You may not learn as much about training a horse not to kill you, but sometimes it's alright to leave that job to the pros** who have both more experience at that sort of thing and, quite possibly, superglue seats.

    *understatement of the year
    **runner up for understatement of the year


    6 members found this post helpful.

  4. #64
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    Apr. 14, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajierene View Post
    ...
    I cannot stand people saying that an amateur rider should just deal with the horse they have - it is unpleasant and could be dangerous. As long as you are not leaving a string of horses with the same behavioral problem, then there is no harm in moving a horse along that you do not click with...
    Well said and worth repeating! We sometimes just do not get along with a horse for some reason, and that is truly OK. I had to come to grips with this myself last year as my one mare hated dressage (it was her because my other mare is great at dressage). She just did. She was fun the first year I had her when we were working through her previous training problems and greenness, but once we had the basics down and were moving into harder dressage work, we fought and fought and fought and fought and...... you get the picture. When I finally decided I had had enough, I swear the relief was immeasurable and when she finally sold, riding became fun again. She and I would have knock down drag out fights, but the amazing thing was when other people tried her out she was a SAINT. It was unbelievable. Basic flatwork, trail riding, fox-hunting and jumping are her things, not dressage.

    As Ajierene posted as long as this is not a chronic thing for you (i.e. you do not do this to every horse you have ever had), move on. Start having FUN again!


    2 members found this post helpful.

  5. #65
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    Sep. 2, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajierene View Post
    I cannot stand people saying that an amateur rider should just deal with the horse they have - it is unpleasant and could be dangerous. As long as you are not leaving a string of horses with the same behavioral problem, then there is no harm in moving a horse along that you do not click with. Not everyone will like the same type of ride.
    I agree.
    It is crazy to think that every person can and should get along with every horse.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  6. #66
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    Jul. 29, 2006
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    I earlier posted that I thought the OP should send the horse to a good trainer for a short time (30-90 days). I don't mean that she should do that so SHE keeps the horse and rides it. It does sound like she and the horse are not a good fit, or at least she now thinks so, which usually ends up being a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    But to sell the horse or even give it away, she has to offer something that someone else wants. I don't think any dressage rider or trail rider is going to snap up a horse who is presented as "I am getting rid of him because he is a dirty stopper on jumps and dumps me all the time."

    Hopefully, a short time with a trainer can sort out the horse's issues, determine what kind of activity and rider he would suit and then help market him. Or the trainer can honestly say this horse is not a good riding horse for anyone and then the OP can make a honest, responsible decision as far as retiring him or euthanizing him.

    And I think rather than immediately buying a new horse, the OP ought to spend some time (maybe 6 months at least) in a good lesson program with school horses. That way she can identify any issues she has that contributed to the jumping issues (if there are any) and clarify what kind of horse best fits her riding and the boarding situation she has. If her boarding doesn't offer the opportunity for consistent jumping, she needs a horse that can stay sharp with flatwork and an occasional jumping lesson/school off the property. Or maybe she has to change the boarding situation to suit eventing better or change her discipline so it suits her present boarding.

    But to just throw up your hands, say this horse is awful and then not take steps to fix the horse so he can find a new suitable home and she can find a new suitable horse is not going to change the dynamic of her riding situation and will keep her in the same unhappy situation.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  7. #67
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    Oct. 6, 2002
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    If there's no soundness issue, what's the shame in rehoming (selling/giving away) this horse to a home that is more aligned with what he is comfortable doing (dressage etc.) and finding yourself a horse who better suits your needs?
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/


    1 members found this post helpful.

  8. #68
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    Jul. 3, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by yellowbritches View Post
    What do you do? Sell him. Give him away. Whatever.

    This horse doesn't want to play the game. Find him a game he does want to play and a person he who wants to play it with him. Plain and simple.
    This. Life is too short, even when you're 23. I have a new guy now and it's <3.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by SprinklerBandit View Post
    This. Life is too short, even when you're 23. I have a new guy now and it's <3.
    YES!!!!!
    All that is gold does not glitter;
    Not all those who wander are lost.
    ~J.R.R. Tolkien
    http://theimperfectperfecthorse.blogspot.com/



  10. #70
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    Aug. 17, 2001
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    OP - I'm jumping into this party rather late, because I just realized who you are. you know me, too - I was at your last show with my chestnut gelding, riding right after your round .

    Sell him. I've watched you struggle with him this entire past year, and you are not having any fun. Are you perfect up there? No, but you shouldn't have to be. BN is 2'7, easily jumpable from a spook or a trot, and to have your pony slam on the brakes and chuck you into fences isn't just irritating (and expensive, when you consider the show fees!), it's dangerous. Even if you were able to "fix" him by sending him off to training, I'd worry that your confidence hasn't been shot by this and that you could never fully trust him again.

    What I saw at that fence when he dumped you was that he was jumping rather well until he started to spook at that jump. I'm going to be brutally honest here - yes, he telegraphed his intention to stop about three strides out. You leaned, thinking he would go (you were kicking, but your upper body wasn't defensive, like it should have been on this horse), and then he dumped on the forehand and wheeled away. HOWEVER - as an ammy, he still shouldn't have done that - you were giving him a perfectly good ride up until that point, and he was jumping well and confidently, and you weren't THAT far forward - just too forward to deal with the spin he gave you. Because he seems to do this to you A LOT, this is why you two aren't a good match. If he did it once in a while and you didn't always come off, the relationship could be salvaged, but it has happened at every show I've seen the two of you attend, and I can tell that the trust between you two is gone.

    I don't always give my horse the perfect ride, and I doubt there is anybody on this board who can say he/she does. Some of us can deal with it better than others. Still, I don't see your horse TRYING for you at all. If I accidentally catch Ollie in the mouth or take my leg off, he still tries to get me to the other side. Yours does not - not only does he quit, he spins and dumps you. You are training with one of the best in the area, so you're getting competent help. You need a horse that's willing to at least TRY for you. Your pony's first instincts seem to be to quit. Whether that's due to pain, or temperment, is immaterial - he's not the right horse for you RIGHT NOW.

    If you're willing to see if taking from a different trainer will help sort the two of you out, I strongly suggest going with someone who's a bit tough and willing to get on your pony and give him a "Come to Jesus" meeting. Has anybody else sat on him and gotten the same kind of ride? Or does he only do this with you? Try my coach, Susan Beebee, or Gina Fiore - both are tough, capable riders. Susan probably is a bit more sympathetic towards the plight of a nervous, confidence-shaken ammy, but both are quite good. If Susan or Gina says that this match is no-good, then you know you've given it your all and you can move on knowing you've done your best.

    I truly feel for you. Like I said, I've watched this scenario all year, and many times I've thought "geez, she needs to get a different horse". If you want to talk about it, PM me. Or heck, PM me and we'll talk over lunch. Love you!
    "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison

    So, the Zen Buddhist says to the hotdog vendor, "Make me one with everything."


    7 members found this post helpful.

  11. #71
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    Dec. 23, 2006
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    Jumping in as an ammy with a green horse. I think you have two things that are going wrong.

    1) Match with the horse. If you want to be "taken care of" without consistent preparation or lessons, then a horse without much experience and/or not a generous-hearted nature is not for you. There are some inexperienced horses who figure it out for themselves, but this is not one, and if he ever had the potential to be, repeated experiences as a quitter have made it extremely unlikely he's going to become that horse for you. So yes, if you can find a better situation, make a change. It's better for the horse, too. But please make an effort to get a pro on him for a month or so and come up with an honest assessment of what this horse will be like in different hands. That will help you get a good placement for him and even learn something about what went wrong in your riding.

    2) Which brings me to-- you sound like you didn't prepare yourself or your horse for the tasks at hand. As simple as BN is for the riders who are accustomed to bringing up the levels and as physically easy as it is for a sound horse to jump 2'7", riders need preparation and ammies need training.

    If/when you get the next horse, ride in more lessons and if possible have a trainer do some of the preparation you haven't got time to do.
    Shut up! You look fine! --Judybigredpony
    Ms. Brazil


    2 members found this post helpful.

  12. #72
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    Aug. 14, 2000
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    As owners of horses, we do have an obligation to them. A horse with the record that this horse has is going to be hard to sell. I do think that we, even with a sales decision, should put in the extra effort and dollars to give the horse a chance to be sold for a decent price to a decent home. Putting that 30 or 60 days with a "tough" trainer might change your mind or it might not. But he will be more attractive in the market if you've done something for him other than whine.

    Try foxhunting with him; try having him trained by a pro who will actually ride him. But try SOMETHING. Then sell him. You'll never trust him, so he's going to be for sale.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire


    1 members found this post helpful.

  13. #73
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    Jul. 19, 2003
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    Middleburg, VA
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    Just because a horse isn't suited for one job does not mean he will be a "tough" sale in another. I have sold some horses into dressage homes who HATED jumping (one was a dirty stopper- not as bad as this one- one was a rusher). We marketed them as dressage horses, being honest with their abilities and training in that sport, and if asked why they were being sold, we were honest- they don't like to jump but will make nice dressage horses. Same goes for the chicken littles on xc that would make nice hunters,or the horse who hated dressage, but was a perfect foxhunter. When marketed right, buyers don't often care that their potential new horse didn't like its old job, as long as it likes its new one.

    That being said, we made them up as dressage horses (or hunters, etc). BUT, I think that's a whole other thread for the OP, if she's going to pursue putting him on the market.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  14. #74
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    Jan. 19, 2005
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    Exactly....when I say move the horse on, even if it means giving him away....I do NOT mean dumping him on the first unsuspecting person who says they will take him.

    I mean finding him a job and a home more suited for him. If he is a good mover and decent at dressage...aim him in that direction. If he is fabulous out hacking....aim him as a trail horse. If you have ruled out pain, and think with the right rider and situation, he may enjoy jumping, find that situation. And be happy when the person who takes him on is successful with him.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **


    1 members found this post helpful.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajierene View Post

    I cannot stand people saying that an amateur rider should just deal with the horse they have - it is unpleasant and could be dangerous. As long as you are not leaving a string of horses with the same behavioral problem, then there is no harm in moving a horse along that you do not click with. Not everyone will like the same type of ride.
    it's fine to sell a horse that you don't click with - but at least acknowledge (as the OP has) that she doesn't have the skill set for this particular horse.

    its not fair to the horse for it to be responsible for the riders fun. and for sure the rider will get further and have more fun if they look to themselves first.

    pretty much the majority of instances posted here of horses being "bad" was the result of rider error. that is not a problem as long as the riders say "yep, my fault" and works hard to change themselves - because only then will the horse change.

    to blame the horse is bad horsemanship.



  16. #76
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    Oct. 6, 2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    it's fine to sell a horse that you don't click with - but at least acknowledge (as the OP has) that she doesn't have the skill set for this particular horse.

    its not fair to the horse for it to be responsible for the riders fun. and for sure the rider will get further and have more fun if they look to themselves first.

    pretty much the majority of instances posted here of horses being "bad" was the result of rider error. that is not a problem as long as the riders say "yep, my fault" and works hard to change themselves - because only then will the horse change.

    to blame the horse is bad horsemanship.
    What does blame have to do with anything?

    This horse is not a match for the OP and her goals. That's life. Find a better match for the OP and a better match her current horse. Send it to a sales barn where they can find a better niche, sell it as a dressage horse herself since that's a strong point-- whatever.

    Blame's not relevant.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/


    4 members found this post helpful.

  17. #77
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    Sep. 2, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    What does blame have to do with anything?

    This horse is not a match for the OP and her goals. That's life. Find a better match for the OP and a better match her current horse. Send it to a sales barn where they can find a better niche, sell it as a dressage horse herself since that's a strong point-- whatever.

    Blame's not relevant.
    Yes!
    I do not get the theme here of posts going over how the OP must be a bad rider and if only she knew how to ride this horse could be perfect.

    Really there is no fault here. Horse and rider do not get along. Even the best riders do not get along with every horse they ride. There is no reason to point fingers at an ammy because their skill set does not make them a match to the horse they happen to own.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  18. #78
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    Nov. 13, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    it's fine to sell a horse that you don't click with - but at least acknowledge (as the OP has) that she doesn't have the skill set for this particular horse.

    its not fair to the horse for it to be responsible for the riders fun. and for sure the rider will get further and have more fun if they look to themselves first.

    pretty much the majority of instances posted here of horses being "bad" was the result of rider error. that is not a problem as long as the riders say "yep, my fault" and works hard to change themselves - because only then will the horse change.

    to blame the horse is bad horsemanship.
    Admitting you are not a right match for the horse is not the same as blaming the horse. I don't see anyone *blaming* the horse here, just people trying to convince the OP that as an ammy she does not have to struggle along with every horse that crosses her path. There are some horses who are not meant for some riders, no matter how hard you try or how much you want them to be. That does not mean the horse, or the rider, is to blame.

    OP...riding is supposed to be fun, and it does not sound like you are having any right now. Find this horse a job he will enjoy, and then decide what to do next for yourself. That may not be buying again straight away. Maybe you need to ride lots of different types of horses to figure out which ones you "mesh" with, maybe leasing for awhile would be a good idea. If you're feeling as burned out as you sound, maybe taking a break wouldn't be a bad option. Good luck!
    "Choose to chance the rapids, and dare to dance the tides" - Garth Brooks
    "With your permission, dear, I'll take my fences one at a time" - Maggie Smith, Downton Abbey


    3 members found this post helpful.

  19. #79
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    its not about blaming its about taking responsibility for your riding - saying the horse did x actually means i wasn't able to ride x in a manner that resulted in a good outcome.

    riders will only progress and have "fun" once they realize that they are responsible for each outcome.

    and yes, horses are horses but still - 99% of the time the outcome is due to the rider....

    sooo..... all of that just means that for those that keep saying my horse does "x" i suggest turning it around into an "i" statement. that direction leads to progress and fun - if for no other reason than the understanding that the rider has control over the outcomes for the vast majority of situations. and *that* leads to confidence, understaading, learning, progress, and yes, more fun


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  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnm161 View Post
    It's a different story in my mind if the horse wasn't pitching the OP into jumps. That's unacceptable. It's not fun, it's not good for the OP's confidence*, and it's not safe. Just because she owns the horse doesn't mean she's got to jump it around CC. Tune him up, put a pro on if it helps put together a good dressage or H/J vid, and find him a good home doing something he likes.

    Now, I'd be all on board with MBM and IdeaYoda if the OP's story was "All of my horses put the haunches in to the left no matter what direction I go. Should I sell my horse?" Because that's likely solely pilot error. A horse that throws in dirty stops might be pilot error, but it's unsafe to fix if your breeches don't come with superglue fullseats.

    In other words, you can learn just as much about riding from a horse that's not trying to kill you. You may not learn as much about training a horse not to kill you, but sometimes it's alright to leave that job to the pros** who have both more experience at that sort of thing and, quite possibly, superglue seats.

    *understatement of the year
    **runner up for understatement of the year
    Thank you. This sums up how I feel about the OP's situation as well.

    Maybe this horse just doesn't want to jump enough to make it work for him, so sometimes he says 'meh'. That meh could get the OP seriously injured or worse.

    Any grown up with two brain cells knows that horses are bought, sold, and given away seven days a week. One may elect to sell a horse, give one away, donate them to a cause, whatever. He's your property: manage his ass out of your life if you want to, that's completely legal, you know


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