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  1. #21
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    Apr. 28, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by subk View Post
    His sire ran 62 times for 11 wins and 2.6M in winnings, that would be more indicative to me for inherited soundness than a ggsire.

    And I love the Hail To Reason, much closer up than we generally see these days.
    Different Times Equestrian Ventures at Hidden Spring Ranch
    www.DifferentTimesEquestrianVentures.com



  2. #22
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    Dec. 31, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levade View Post
    He's known for passing on unsoundness, from what I've heard, so doubling up on that seems risky to me, in theory.
    Jet's Great grandfather is Mr P. Jet is 14 now, and never been unsound, except once when he made himself temporarily sore kicking in a stall. He has great feet. He's super athletic, but a little hot under saddle. Very people oriented.



  3. #23
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    Jun. 1, 2002
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    Indiana
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    Quote Originally Posted by subk View Post
    His sire ran 62 times for 11 wins and 2.6M in winnings, that would be more indicative to me for inherited soundness than a ggsire.
    What does this mean anyway? I know that if a horse held up for that many races he's hardy and sound by race horse standards. Does it mean anything for dressage? There's such a big difference in what people consider to be sound, and in my opinion I think that race horse soundness is different from dressage horse soundness. Race horses move SO different fresh off the track then a few months down the line. We want dressage horses to be through and soft and even, and I think a "lame" horse is more noticable when we're working for all these things.

    Lastly, a horse is always sound until the check is cashed.


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  4. #24
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    Jan. 19, 2005
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    PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by enjoytheride View Post
    What does this mean anyway? I know that if a horse held up for that many races he's hardy and sound by race horse standards. Does it mean anything for dressage? There's such a big difference in what people consider to be sound, and in my opinion I think that race horse soundness is different from dressage horse soundness. Race horses move SO different fresh off the track then a few months down the line. We want dressage horses to be through and soft and even, and I think a "lame" horse is more noticable when we're working for all these things.

    Lastly, a horse is always sound until the check is cashed.

    Racing sound means that structurally the horse is put together well. No horse races well for that many races if they are not structurally well made and use themselves well. This IS important for our sport as well as no amount of dressage or xc puts the level of stress on a horse as racing. So if this horse's sire was that well structurally made, then it is a positive factor for his offspring.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **


    7 members found this post helpful.

  5. #25
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    Nov. 9, 2012
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    Have you seen him move? That would be the next thing to check IMHO. Obviously you are going to vet him and radiograph ankles; but if he moves like a pogo stick it's probably not worth the $$.

    FWIW, my new OTTB mare has two big ankles - both flex fine, palpate fine and she trots very sound. I didn't x-ray because she was free (and flexed fine). But - I'm not sure I would've paid $1500 for her.



  6. #26
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    Jul. 10, 2009
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    Ohio
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    Racing sound means that structurally the horse is put together well. No horse races well for that many races if they are not structurally well made and use themselves well. This IS important for our sport as well as no amount of dressage or xc puts the level of stress on a horse as racing. So if this horse's sire was that well structurally made, then it is a positive factor for his offspring.
    I would thumbs up this post many more times if I could. I have a Mr. P grandson (which is a pretty close relation considering he died in '99) who ran 37 times and has spent the past six years in the H/J world and more recently, eventing. If a horse can last that long racing, its always a good sign.



  7. #27
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    Feb. 14, 2001
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    Lexington, KY--GO BIG BLUE!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    Racing sound means that structurally the horse is put together well. No horse races well for that many races if they are not structurally well made and use themselves well. This IS important for our sport as well as no amount of dressage or xc puts the level of stress on a horse as racing. So if this horse's sire was that well structurally made, then it is a positive factor for his offspring.
    Quoting for emphasis. Eventing at advanced level is pretty tough on a horse, as is 100-mile endurace races...anything that requires a high level of fitness (and frequent pounding) is hard on the equine body. But racing, even at the lowest $5K claimer level is a high level of stress. Only the strong and sound survive. True...a racehorse doesn't have to pass an FEI jog to start, and some medication may be allowed. But an unsound horse cannot race for long...a high number of starts means the horse was tough enough to last, and if sound at the end of it, probably won't be bothered by low or mid-level jumping and dressage.


    Sometimes people get a little too hung up on Past Generations...look up close to determine what you have. True, certain lines may be known for unsoundness; but the more you dilute it, the less influence that ancestor has.
    “A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it.”
    ? Albert Einstein

    ~AJ~


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  8. #28
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    Apr. 2, 2009
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    North Carolina
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    I wouldn't let the pedigree bother you -- there is so much more to soundness than that. Mine has Seattle Slew on both sides 3 gens back, and Mr. P (who produced his grandsire, who in turn produced lovely jumpers) as well -- and he has great legs, great build, BEAUTIFUL tough amazing feet and fantastic bone. I always look at the horse as an individual. His record is far more important than that of a horse who sired a gabazillion babies.

    Mine's got an ankle with a couple osselets too, old and set, along with an impressive set of pinfire scars down his front legs; he raced for 3 years; I did xray them (after I bought him, rofl, oh well) and they do not interfere with joint space, nor have they caused him any problems schooling up to about 3'3" so far. But you have to investigate each on a case-by-case basis.

    Has mine had soundness issues that needed to be addressed? Absolutely (he IS a horse) but they had nothing to do with his lineage nor were they unique to OTTB-land. So I think perspective is really important. Oh heck, just go get a horse from jlee, hers are the best anyway. Not that I'm biased or anything... >.>


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  9. #29
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    Jul. 26, 2012
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    THANK YOU guys, I feel a LOT better about pursuing this guy. I think the osslet thing freaked me out a little bit about his soundness, but I'm not going to condemn him now because of his pedigree. He just has the sweetest face and his exercise rider says he's very uphill and naturally athletic with a springy trot, and she think he's make a wonderful eventer.

    What do you guys think of how he's put together? I've already got some feedback about that from some of you guys.



  10. #30
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    Feb. 4, 2004
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    I wouldn't worry about the pedigree at all.
    As for the ankles, you can't really tell joint involvement or lack thereof from seeing pics of them. I have a horse with 30 starts whose ankle rounding looks about the same as your pics on the outside and has been sound for 3 yrs OTT eventing. But I agree with everyone else, if you meet and like him, vet him and x-ray the ankles so you know for sure, as a lot of different ankle issues can look the same from the outside.



  11. #31
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    Jul. 26, 2012
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    Could I ask what level your horse has been eventing at? I definitely would like a horse SOUND enough to do at least prelim (other suitability factors aside). Do you think a horse could be racing on that ankle if there was actually joint involvement? His equibase says he raced yesterday (??) and was fourth, so he's definitely still chugging along.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beam Me Up View Post
    I wouldn't worry about the pedigree at all.
    As for the ankles, you can't really tell joint involvement or lack thereof from seeing pics of them. I have a horse with 30 starts whose ankle rounding looks about the same as your pics on the outside and has been sound for 3 yrs OTT eventing. But I agree with everyone else, if you meet and like him, vet him and x-ray the ankles so you know for sure, as a lot of different ankle issues can look the same from the outside.



  12. #32
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    Okay guys, his right front looks a little crooked in this pic--this is the leg with the old, small osslet. Am I seeing this right? (keep in mind he's just moseying along on a hot-walker).

    http://i48.tinypic.com/mtqj44.png
    Last edited by Levade; Dec. 10, 2012 at 02:21 AM.



  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levade View Post
    Could I ask what level your horse has been eventing at? I definitely would like a horse SOUND enough to do at least prelim (other suitability factors aside). Do you think a horse could be racing on that ankle if there was actually joint involvement? His equibase says he raced yesterday (??) and was fourth, so he's definitely still chugging along.
    My guy came OTT in late fall 2009, did novice last year (2011) and training this year (2012) plus 1 prelim. I expect him to continue on at prelim next year. Pics (though not ankle-specific, you can somewhat see it is the LF, the white one that has more rounding) here http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...1&l=94a7c1b2b4

    Sound and racing are good signs, but yes horses can run on some ugly issues. Sometimes that is because of medication, other times they might not be in pain yet but they are still doing themselves damage by continuing, so I'd definitely vet/x-ray if you are interested.



  14. #34
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    Aug. 4, 2009
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    Mr P is not so up close and personal to be of super concern he like Storm Cat were zealously "over Used" for years...Woodman though I have had experiances w/..Good and Bad... Tough mined opioneated VERY talented Jumpers lovely movers made of Granite but can have attitude's to match..

    Racing Sound is a much more a forgiving term and does not translate to Sports Horse "pass a Vetting/jog" sound...

    Unless he is a stunning mover and/or Passes a non-track et PPE there are alot of fish in the sea....and JLG is right 1 occelot is more of a concern than 2 that match..



  15. #35
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    Nov. 9, 2012
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    They don't nit pick soundness at the track (like Judy said). He could be slightly off and still get in the starting gate. Not to mention, they could be injecting the ankle often, especially if he's making money. So, I wouldn't use the fact that he is still racing as an indicator of anything.

    If you like him - go look! Flex and jog him. Bring a friend to help. Watch him train in the mornings, ask the trainer when he's going out for a gallop. Video it! Staring at these pictures of his legs isn't going to help you.



  16. #36
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    Jan. 19, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levade View Post
    Okay guys, his right front looks a little crooked in this pic--this is the leg with the old, small osslet. Am I seeing this right? (keep in mind he's just moseying along on a hot-walker).

    http://i48.tinypic.com/mtqj44.png
    You can't see anything from that photo.

    Again...if you like him, go meet him in person and vet him. Pay for an expert opinion. You really can't tell from the photos whether or not he will be sound for what you want. A PPE will tell you a ton more...and even that will not tell you whether he has the mind you will want. You have to buy these guys with the mindset of picking ones you want to work with....and the put some time into them and then see what you have.


    And remember...very few that are actively racing will be "sound" by sport horse standards. Some yes...but most will have some soreness. That is where you need a good PPE to help decide if the soreness is just the type that will resolve with time and maybe a little body work or if it is an indication of a more serious issue. Some injuries they will come back fine from...some will just be body sore...and some will have chornic issues that will prevent them from doing much more. Most of these things you absolutely CAN NOT tell by looking at pictures alone.
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **


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  17. #37
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    Nov. 8, 2011
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    Wow, I love your guy, he's such a lovely jumper! I love the successful OTTB stories.



  18. #38
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    Jul. 26, 2012
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    Thank you guys, I definitely agree that it's important to check out the horse in person. It's just a tricky situation because this track is 5 1/2 hours away from me, so trailering down here with my trainer for a vet check is a big financial commitment, I can't just nip down there and take a look casually. My trainer wants me to look at horses locally since we have a track here too, but for whatever reason I'm so drawn to this horse and feel better dealing with a reputable person who has worked with him and knows personally he's a very athletic horse, as opposed to dealing with unknown sellers/trainers and rescuers who have ottbs in their backyards but don't necessarily know much about the horse as working athlete. If that makes any sense. I'll have to think on it...



  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levade View Post
    Thank you guys, I definitely agree that it's important to check out the horse in person. It's just a tricky situation because this track is 5 1/2 hours away from me, so trailering down here with my trainer for a vet check is a big financial commitment, I can't just nip down there and take a look casually. My trainer wants me to look at horses locally since we have a track here too, but for whatever reason I'm so drawn to this horse and feel better dealing with a reputable person who has worked with him and knows personally he's a very athletic horse, as opposed to dealing with unknown sellers/trainers and rescuers who have ottbs in their backyards but don't necessarily know much about the horse as working athlete. If that makes any sense. I'll have to think on it...
    Maybe a compromise is to have a vet go give him a quicker once over for you. Just to see if he is worth pursuing.

    It sounds like you a smitten...and that happens. Some times you have to just listen to that gut feeling
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  20. #40
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    Oct. 17, 2002
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    I agree with Fairweather. A true osselet is not IN the joint. It is on the FRONT of the joint.
    So if you have a bulge or bump or knot anywhere else....it isn't an osselet.
    They wouldn't flex sore with a set osselet, but they would with a green one.
    If you have mild "ankle rounding" you could still have a chip or something else going on.
    OR....maybe nothing but some pressure from training or even training
    on bad foot angles.
    RIP Spider Murphy 4/20/02 - 10/31/10



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