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  1. #41
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    And don't forget, even if you make over $250K a year and are subject to higher taxes, if Obama's plan goes through, your income taxes on your income below $250K will go down. The higher tax rate only applies to your income over $250K. So the effect on people's taxes is higher, but perhaps not as high as some of the punditry would have you believe.

    Now, if we go over the cliff, that's entirely different since taxes go up for all.

    As to the report, it was encouraging to see the number of Arabs is going up. Since I ride a purebred and do care about the future of the breed, anything that helps Arabs get used and enjoyed is good news to me. I am hoping to do more rated shows next year (trying for first leg of my bronze medal) but will probably do more open than Arab shows since we are blessed to have a lot of good open shows in my area. Arab shows are harder to find.



  2. #42
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    I think there mayb be several things at play - with the economy playing a part in some of the decision making of riders - but I think there is also a general 'fracturing' of sorts going on in the industry. Much of it as a result of a backlash not just against costs, but may also be due to the intensified controveries regarding training methods, judging standards, and a general dissatisfaction of our governing bodies.

    I think we are also beginning to see a slowing enthusiasm for the rise of the purpose bred, big moving warmblood. It may have begun due the economy, but as people have been forced to scale back, many have rethought their priorities, creating a rising backlash against the whole concept of 'pay to play'.

    As time has gone on, and warmbloods have become the norm, I think a lot of the older, adult reriders who were contributing so much to their rise, are now re-evaluating their goals, abilities, and finances; successfully exploring the possibilities of a smaller, less expensive horse with more versatility and easier trainability; having more fun trying different things, including schooling shows, and walking away from the ever more expensive and elusive pursuit of a 70% at PSG.

    I also think that arabian, morgan , and recently even TB breeders, are figuring out how to market their breeds better to the middle income amatuer rider.

    There will always be the serious competitors to keep the recognized show afloat, but the trend for many of the amatuer owners who were lusting after a fancy warmblook with dreams of being competitive at 4th level may be moving in the opposite direction simply because they're not getting enough enjoyment out of their investment.
    Last edited by Trevelyan96; Dec. 10, 2012 at 04:16 PM.
    Lowly Farm Hand with Delusions of Barn Biddieom.
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  3. #43
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    As far as recognized shows vs unrecognized, I wonder if and how the advent of centerlinescores etc affects that going forward. Do people feel less good about going to recognized shows if they're not as prepared as they'd like to be given that their score will be up on the internet for all eternity? Are people more likely to choose a recognized show if they feel well prepared given that their score will be up on the internet for all eternity?
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by poltroon View Post
    As far as recognized shows vs unrecognized, I wonder if and how the advent of centerlinescores etc affects that going forward. Do people feel less good about going to recognized shows if they're not as prepared as they'd like to be given that their score will be up on the internet for all eternity? Are people more likely to choose a recognized show if they feel well prepared given that their score will be up on the internet for all eternity?
    As the proud owner of a 38% that's up on Centerline for all eternity....I can say that having scores public really didn't change the dynamics of whether to show rated or not. A bigger influence was the observation by my trainer that showing training level at a rated show doesn't really "get" you anything - it doesn't contribute to a medal, for example. So why not use the many schooling shows in our area to gain experience (aka make our many mistakes) at training level at about $100 a day (entry fees and a stall) rather than many more $$$ to show rated for the same experience. As far as I can tell, there's no real value add to show rated in this scenario.

    Now, if I were a pro and had a horse to sell or a reputation to build, that's another story.

    I'll do the same next year when we start out at first level - many a schooling show until we are steady and then it's off to rated shows for the first leg of my bronze. A stretch goal is to qualify for our regional Arabian show, and I'd rather do that at first than training level.

    As a greenie with a greenie, now evolving to dressage duffer with a few ambitions, I have sincerely appreciated the many schooling shows in my area. It's a real credit to the people who care enough about dressage to set up and manage the circuits AND their faith that us "little guys" are worth serving.


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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticOakRanch View Post
    That is the middle income, often lower level rider, core base that we keep talking about - they may not individually spend a ton of money, but there are SO many of them (us) that it keeps the sport afloat. You won't see those (us) at Wellington, but we do show at our local rated and schooling shows, we keep the local trainers employed, we ride one or two clinics annually and contribute to the big name people that way. We fill up the non-FEI classes at the shows. We buy a new saddle once every 7 or 8 years, a new bride every 4 or 5 years, so we aren't all that important as a single person - but lump us all together, and we still make up a LOT of money and support to the horse world.
    This.

    I think I'm in the category where the fiscal cliff, if it occurs, will be pretty bad...high enough income to take a very significant hit, but not high enough that I have enough discretionary income to be able to absorb that hit without making some BIG changes to my spending.

    If it occurs, which I am hopeful it will not, I will absolutely not be doing recognized shows, and I will have to cut back or eliminate fun-but-unnecessary things like clinics, massages for the pony, non-essential purchases, etc. Which isn't necessarily so big of a deal for *me* (I'm not far removed from my ramen years and am enormously grateful for what I have so I'll have no trouble living with fewer luxuries) but I suspect there are a LOT of owners in my category and cumulatively, that's bad news for people who rely on income from things like clinics, horse massage, and non-essential purchases.


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  6. #46
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    Southern migration of riders from the Northeast and the weather were not mentioned. The year round activity in region 3 would tend to skew the figures.
    Could you further explain what you meant? When I read the part about Florida shows being the reason region 3 is the only region to see growth, but I assumed it meant participation from riders from all regions who come to Florida. I don't think the report meant the success of Florida was from Floridians alone. When I've shown in Florida it would count towards region 3's statistics, not my home region.

    I agree about Florida's year round shows. Florida is the bomb. If my life were only dressage I'd move in a heartbeat. I feel fortunate to get to compete in Florida as often as I do.
    "No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." George Burns



  7. #47
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    What people seem to neglect talking about is the extreme inflation in everything "horsey" that has happened over the past decade, much of it (like the housing bubble) because of the insane amount of money people had to spend due to the credit bubble. With taxes lowered and the explosion of credit and inflation soaring, yes people appeared to have more money, but all that did was drive up prices.

    The price of just about everything has nearly doubled since I got back into horses 10 years ago. But in addition to the prices, so have the expectations! New custom saddles, bling browbands, multiple show outfits, shows getting fancier and more expensive. And the horses, fancy imports from Europe that even middle class riders were buying with HELOCs. There was a frenzy of people living life like an episode of Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous in every aspect of their lives.

    Now comes the moment we have to pay for everything. We need to seriously think about what it really means for this country if simply going back to the 1990s tax rates will destroy this country? Or the horse industry?


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  8. #48
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    I've never understood why someone would go to all the trouble to prepare the horse, trailer the horse, get dressed up (even if it's just a clean pair of breeches and a polo shirt), braid, whatever to go to a schooling show. There is NO way I'm going through all that effort to have it not really "count". I'm sure that will bother some, but let's face it, that's the way it is.


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  9. #49
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    well for me it is purely cost and ease of showing. I sure don't want to spend $$$$$ to show my 4 yo when i can spend $ instead - as for getting ready - whats to do? put on your normal riding clothes and go! no braiding, etc. Schooling shows i think are a great way to allow a baby (or a green rider) to get in the groove in a very forgiving manner.

    for an example: i was allowed to walk my 4 yo around the arena during lunch so he could get an idea before we went in. The judge was very forgiving and gave me a heads up before blowing the whistle etc. Totally useful for my situation!

    I guess i only will show rated when i feel i have something useful and good to show to the judges in the meantime I will take advantage of teh plethora of local well run schooling shows : )

    honestly, while i agree that things have gotten more expensive, and that many people lived above their means - the core group of of real riders will be here no matter what.

    I do what i have to do to keep my horses fed and me in lessons. it is my life. other things go by the way side.


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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dune View Post
    I've never understood why someone would go to all the trouble to prepare the horse, trailer the horse, get dressed up (even if it's just a clean pair of breeches and a polo shirt), braid, whatever to go to a schooling show. There is NO way I'm going through all that effort to have it not really "count". I'm sure that will bother some, but let's face it, that's the way it is.
    I think it depends on what it means to a person to have it "count." For me, showing is about a) getting feedback so I can get a measure of my progress and become a better rider, and b) having fun and enjoying the experience. I can theoretically accomplish both of those goals at a schooling or a recognized show, so for me, both of them "count." I don't really care about where I stack up compared to other riders -- I just want to compare myself to me and become the best rider I'm capable of being. Also, all that getting-dressed-up/preparing-the-horse stuff is fun, so I don't consider it trouble -- I've spent so many horseless years watching from the sidelines, desperately wanting to have a horse to prepare, that all that stuff is still feels like a privilege and a joy to me. Maybe that will change over time. And while I'd someday like to go for medals, I'm young and in no rush, and I don't really care if my scores right now count toward anything other than my own education.

    Of course, everybody's different. People with different goals who are at different points in their riding career will want something different out of their showing experiences. I can understand why schooling shows would be not worth the bother to somebody with true competitive goals. But maybe my perspective will help you understand why they are a good fit for somebody like me.


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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dune View Post
    I've never understood why someone would go to all the trouble to prepare the horse, trailer the horse, get dressed up (even if it's just a clean pair of breeches and a polo shirt), braid, whatever to go to a schooling show. There is NO way I'm going through all that effort to have it not really "count". I'm sure that will bother some, but let's face it, that's the way it is.
    Well, aren't you lucky! For those who don't have much disposable income, it is quite easy to understand.
    "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller


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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dune View Post
    I've never understood why someone would go to all the trouble to prepare the horse, trailer the horse, get dressed up (even if it's just a clean pair of breeches and a polo shirt), braid, whatever to go to a schooling show. There is NO way I'm going through all that effort to have it not really "count". I'm sure that will bother some, but let's face it, that's the way it is.
    Sometimes showing is just about having a nice day with a bunch of horsey people at someone else's facility. And a lot of people train at home without a regulation dressage arena.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dune View Post
    I've never understood why someone would go to all the trouble to prepare the horse, trailer the horse, get dressed up (even if it's just a clean pair of breeches and a polo shirt), braid, whatever to go to a schooling show. There is NO way I'm going through all that effort to have it not really "count". I'm sure that will bother some, but let's face it, that's the way it is.
    Dune, there are no recognized shows anywhere in the entire state of Alabama. You would have to haul to Poplar in GA or up to Greystone in TN- either of which are several hours and several dollars away. For some, hitting the schooling shows locally lets them learn how to cope with show nerves and figure out how to warm up in a strange place w/o spending a boat load of cash and time. Later (maybe) they'll 'graduate' to recognized, but honestly that's just not everyone's goal.

    Locally I don't see a lot of overlap between our schooling show competitors and those who show at recognized shows. The reality seems to demonstrate that there is interest in one or the other, but not both. We routinely have to turn competitors away from our one day schooling shows, we fill up to the gills, so it makes sense to plenty of people, just not to you


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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by suzier444 View Post
    This.

    I think I'm in the category where the fiscal cliff, if it occurs, will be pretty bad...high enough income to take a very significant hit, but not high enough that I have enough discretionary income to be able to absorb that hit without making some BIG changes to my spending.
    I completely agree, and I think there are a LOT of horse owners in this category.

    I know there are lots of things I've done this year that I'll likely choose differently about if those tax hikes go into effect. Splurges like $500 clinics might easily become $35 audit passes, for example. As a newbie at dressage, I will learn a lot either way, and if our taxes go up as much as they are forecasting at the moment... there will simply be fewer luxuries I can justify.

    I really applaud Centerline Scores for doing this analysis and publishing it. Lots of food for thought.
    Last edited by Lucassb; Dec. 11, 2012 at 01:11 PM. Reason: fix typo
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dune View Post
    I've never understood why someone would go to all the trouble to prepare the horse, trailer the horse, get dressed up (even if it's just a clean pair of breeches and a polo shirt), braid, whatever to go to a schooling show. There is NO way I'm going through all that effort to have it not really "count". I'm sure that will bother some, but let's face it, that's the way it is.
    Well, if you can get judged by an "R" or even "S" judge for around 1/5 the cost of doing a recognized show and don't care about going to regionals, schooling shows are a great way to go. Not your cup of tea, but it works for many, many people.
    Quote Originally Posted by SuzieQNutter
    The whip is held across your thigh so as you can still hold the reins without spilling your coffee!!
    SillyHorse adds: Or your wine.


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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dune View Post
    I've never understood why someone would go to all the trouble to prepare the horse, trailer the horse, get dressed up (even if it's just a clean pair of breeches and a polo shirt), braid, whatever to go to a schooling show. There is NO way I'm going through all that effort to have it not really "count". I'm sure that will bother some, but let's face it, that's the way it is.
    Well, let's run the numbers. Schooling shows: $20 per class x 3 training level classes = $60. Sometimes I get a stall because it's easier on horse, but is not always necessary, but to compare apples to apples, most stalls on our schooling show circuit are $40. So $100 on entry blank, max. Schooling shows here are very close to me, as close at 15 miles from my barn. Furthest is about 60 miles away, so min. time on trailer is 20 minutes, max is an hour. Gas in this scenario is $40 max. Lunch is $10 'cause I usually buy for my sister who's my chief d'equipe. So, being very generous on costs, $200 total for a schooling show. That includes the cost of my Halloween costume, snacks, and who knows what else amortized over the 10 shows on the circuit.

    Last time I went to a rated show, I wanted to do an Arab show with dressage and it was 3.5 hours away. I showed in 4 classes, had a stall for the weekend, had a $150 hotel room for three nights, at least $200 in gas, probably $40 a day in meals, etc. In short, I spent *for one weekend!* roughly half of what I would spend if I would show the entire 10 show training circuit for the season. There are closer rated shows but they still require a 1 hr+ drive and a hotel stay, with all associated costs.

    That's not counting USEF, AHA, or USDF memberships, fees, health certificate costs, etc.

    And for year end rewards, on the schooling show circuit I got a big bag of horse treats, a saddle cover, and a 2 lb box of the best chocolates in SW Ohio. If I had been showing rated this year I would have gotten exactly zip. No scores towards a medal, no ribbons, nada. As for intangibles, I have made some really nice friends on the schooling circuit, learned a lot, and gotten good feedback from every judge I've shown under.

    So in my humble, newbie opinion, schooling shows count for quite a bit.

    ETA: I might have gotten a little wound up on the original post, so some additional thoughts: We met some nice folks at the rated show. I'm sure if I showed rated more often, I would meet other nice folks. I might have won a ribbon here or there, so that was probably an overstatement, but still, my goal is a medal sooner or later, and we were at training level, so no medal scores. Bottom line: as I've said before, there's a place in dressage for all of us. I respect those who show rated, heck I hope to do more of it myself. Respect what schooling shows are for in return, OK?
    Last edited by oldernewbie; Dec. 11, 2012 at 06:08 PM.


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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    I guess i only will show rated when i feel i have something useful and good to show to the judges in the meantime I will take advantage of teh plethora of local well run schooling shows : )
    My sentiments exactly. I'm excited to enter the world of recognized showing. I finally am in a position to maybe play in this area 1-2 times a year. But I'm not going to blow my hard earned dollars. Spend wisely!



  18. #58
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    hope Jay will take a look at trends in breeds over the time period
    Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

    The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”



  19. #59
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    i wonder if there would be a way to do a schooling show scores/results database?

    because my guess is that is where the "action" will be for at least a few years.....



  20. #60
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    If you could get GMOs that have schooling shows to sign on, you might be able to create such a database. But you'd have to find people to administer it. Good luck!
    Quote Originally Posted by SuzieQNutter
    The whip is held across your thigh so as you can still hold the reins without spilling your coffee!!
    SillyHorse adds: Or your wine.



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