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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    Fair enough. IF the consent is in place beforehand I would agree. So everyone who buys an air vest should be consented and informed that they are being used in lieu of prospective safety data collection. I would accept that.
    Works for me. It is amazing that for research you need to adequately consent participants, but for marketing, you can say whatever you want.

    I am not currently competing, but if I were, would not buy or wear one of those things. Hot, expensive, and an unknown impact on safety. Why do it?


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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    But since a standard vest is PASSIVE protection and an air vest is something entirely different because it essentially explodes on impact, I believe that the item that has the potential to ADD kinetic energy to a fall/injury scenario has a much higher burden of proof of safety than something that just sits there.
    I would agree with this. Also, there's the failure issue, the untimely deployment issue and the potentai-for-dragging issue, all of which are known to have happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
    If we are going to hold air vests to this standard, then I suggest we hold all safety equipment to this standard, including stirrups, safety vests, stirrup release mechanisms on saddles, martingales, helmets, boot soles, saddle balance, and the like.
    Air jackets for equestrian use are new and lack the histories or testing standards that some of these items already have.

    For example, I'm not aware of any martingales that are marketed as safety products and claim to protect you in a rotational fall, but there are guidelines for martingale use in eventing (and also in racing) that are in part based on safety.

    An air jacket requires that you be attached to your horse/saddle via the lanyard. This is why the racing authority in the UK rejected them. It is not a matter of debate whether it is a safety risk to be attached in some way to your saddle. IIRC, those clip-in irons (bad idea) were banned by some NGBs for that reason.

    The vehemence you sense from this board comes from the air jacket sellers' steadfast refusal to provide real evidence for the safety of their products. One company has been cited twice for false claims in advertising by the relevant authorities; that same company has a history of making false claims about riders who fell while wearing their jacket. None of that should inspire warm feelings in the demographic for which these 'safety' products are intended.

    Safety is very important to me. I have an EXO.


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  3. #23
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    I'm jumping in a little late here...

    I had actually thought about contacting P2 or Hit Air to see if they needed a clinical advisor with ortho, spine, trauma, surgery background and horses, to be someone who could talk to both sides, but it sounds like they are more concerned with $$$ than collecting actual data re: morbidity and mortality or educating wearers with real info.

    And being newer to the board, I'm a little lost here-Reed does what re: research? someone enlighten me, gently.
    And the wise, Jack Daniels drinking, slow-truck-driving, veteran TB handler who took "no shit from no hoss Miss L, y'hear," said: "She aint wrapped too tight."



  4. #24
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    Hmmmm... I'm pretty sure no Institutional Review Board would OK testing on humans that would mimic a rotational fall. I could be wrong now, but I don't think so.

    How about getting Mythbusters to figure out an experiment? (Just kidding.)

    But really, I would think that wiring a crash test or other dummy with all the sensors that Reed would like and rigging vest deployment with a large weight (maybe 2/3rds of the average horse) slamming down on it would give you some idea of the results. Careful observation of video recorded falls would create a data base of elapsed time from rider launch to ground impact and horse impact. some grad students who like to make things crash might have some good fun with this. Anyone have an in to MIT?
    They don't call me frugal for nothing.
    Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.


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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by La Chasse View Post
    I'm jumping in a little late here...

    I had actually thought about contacting P2 or Hit Air to see if they needed a clinical advisor with ortho, spine, trauma, surgery background and horses, to be someone who could talk to both sides, but it sounds like they are more concerned with $$$ than collecting actual data re: morbidity and mortality or educating wearers with real info.

    And being newer to the board, I'm a little lost here-Reed does what re: research? someone enlighten me, gently.
    I have no idea. He is just some pedantic weasel who keeps hanging around.


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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by La Chasse View Post
    I'm jumping in a little late here...

    I had actually thought about contacting P2 or Hit Air to see if they needed a clinical advisor with ortho, spine, trauma, surgery background and horses, to be someone who could talk to both sides, but it sounds like they are more concerned with $$$ than collecting actual data re: morbidity and mortality or educating wearers with real info.

    And being newer to the board, I'm a little lost here-Reed does what re: research? someone enlighten me, gently.
    I think that talking with them directly about their concern regarding collecting data might be a great idea. You may find that they are quite interested in tracking accidents and air vest use. It may be that the idea of doing experimental research is out of their realm but tracking accidents could be more manageable, given that they are small companies. I have talked with the Hit Air folks quite a bit and have found them to be very approachable and interested in finding ways to investigate the extent to which their vests are helpful. I have certainly never seen them as obstructive.


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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by frugalannie View Post
    Hmmmm... I'm pretty sure no Institutional Review Board would OK testing on humans that would mimic a rotational fall. I could be wrong now, but I don't think so.

    How about getting Mythbusters to figure out an experiment? (Just kidding.)

    But really, I would think that wiring a crash test or other dummy with all the sensors that Reed would like and rigging vest deployment with a large weight (maybe 2/3rds of the average horse) slamming down on it would give you some idea of the results. Careful observation of video recorded falls would create a data base of elapsed time from rider launch to ground impact and horse impact. some grad students who like to make things crash might have some good fun with this. Anyone have an in to MIT?
    It is almost impossible to do unfunded research at an institution such as MIT. It just doesn't typically happen. I've worked in such university settings and that's basically a given. However, the observational data would be easy to obtain, although I can guess that there will be naysayers, insofar as these data are open to interpretation (non-experimental; correlational). And tracking accidents would involve controlling for many factors, such as level of experience of horse and rider, level of competition, and the like. But that could be done. Our problem is that these data would take a very long time to collect, given that we do not have hundreds of falls per year. I do not know the number of falls per year in the US, but I am guessing (TOTALLY) that one would need an N of at least of 100 per group (air vest vs none). And that would be extremely hard to find at the upper levels. I rarely see anyone competing at Prelim and above without an air vest. None of the people with whom I train ride without one. So finding falls at advanced for riders without an air vest... and then controlling for all the potential confounds....? Whew! It could be 2050 before we would have enough data.

    I am sympathetic toward these reps who are challenged for lacking research data, only because I find it very difficult to envision how such research could be done in a way that these small companies could afford. Eventing is not Football.


    duck, tuck, roll


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  8. #28
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    Good realistic points.
    "Passion, though a bad regulator, is a powerful spring." -- Emerson
    www.eventhorse.wordpress.com


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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by La Chasse View Post
    I'm jumping in a little late here...

    I had actually thought about contacting P2 or Hit Air to see if they needed a clinical advisor with ortho, spine, trauma, surgery background and horses, to be someone who could talk to both sides, but it sounds like they are more concerned with $$$ than collecting actual data re: morbidity and mortality or educating wearers with real info.

    And being newer to the board, I'm a little lost here-Reed does what re: research? someone enlighten me, gently.
    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...ight=air+vests See post #99.


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  10. #30
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    Also tracking people who have vests and what accidents they have may be difficult. Not so bad for high people people and falls but it's to track every fall and what the medical results of the fall are. That would be hard data to get for every purchase and everu fall. And you have no exact controlled elements, etc.



  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmwines01 View Post
    Also tracking people who have vests and what accidents they have may be difficult.
    Maybe not so difficult.

    If you have a fall in an air jacket, you must purchase a new CO2 canister.

    An air jacket company could offer a free or discounted replacement canister in exchange for information on the incident.


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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
    If we are going to hold air vests to this standard, then I suggest we hold all safety equipment to this standard, including stirrups, safety vests, stirrup release mechanisms on saddles, martingales, helmets, boot soles, saddle balance, and the like.
    Well, I can't let Reed be the only pedantic weasel....

    Martingales, boot soles, saddle balance (?) are not marketed as safety equipment and their manufacturers do not make wild claims about how they will procure a unicorn pillow and save your life. It is the level of false marketing that vexes people so.

    Helmets and passive vests do have testing standards. Yet they are rarely mentioned in falls even though they have already been established to actually prevent serious injury or death (not just lessening of instantaneous pain response).

    ETA -- one should never accept "but it will be hard" as an excuse not to do the right thing.


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  13. #33
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    Good point JER. Recently I had a fall hacking that resulted in a concussion among other injuries. Charles Owen gave me 65% off a new helmet if I filled out an accident report and sent it and my damaged helmet to them for research. As I understood them, they'll study my old helmet to better their product. More power to them!

    And sorry, I still think that an abstracted "fall victim" scenario using dummies can be used to test the air vests. It'd be light years ahead of where we are now. Would it mimic every possible scenario? No.

    When I was in grad school we were assigned research projects (with no funding, mind you) that had been submitted by various organizations. I got to do one for the Red Cross. If the funding wasn't available for students to actually conduct the necessary research, the project goal was to define the research in great detail, cost it out and basically put the submitter in the position of being able to bid it out.
    They don't call me frugal for nothing.
    Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.



  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAyers View Post
    I have no idea. He is just some pedantic weasel who keeps hanging around.
    Lol. Thanks. I was hoping for an educated response to my question.

    @skydy- thx for the link.

    Maybe I will talk to them-- then again, my CV isnt nearly as impressive as Reed's but I am about 20 y younger
    And the wise, Jack Daniels drinking, slow-truck-driving, veteran TB handler who took "no shit from no hoss Miss L, y'hear," said: "She aint wrapped too tight."



  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by La Chasse View Post
    Lol. Thanks. I was hoping for an educated response to my question.

    @skydy- thx for the link.

    Maybe I will talk to them-- then again, my CV isnt nearly as impressive as Reed's but I am about 20 y younger
    Yes, I am OOTTOG. "One of those old guys."


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  16. #36
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    ahbaumgardner,
    You may want to check out the following:

    EXO vests, which were heavily researched & tested
    (which contributed to the downfall of the company, since the testing was so expensive)

    The actual testing that was done on Point Two vests, by TRL (results from this link should be read sceptically - how Point Two reports the results of the study definitely has a positive bias - searching this board for key terms should bring up the objections other COTHers had with this research)
    Blugal

    You never know what kind of obsessive compulsive crazy person you are until another person imitates your behaviour at a three-day. --Gry2Yng



  17. #37
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    Reed- this sounds like an opportunity for a trip to the Grizzly Rose to hit the mechanical bull :-) If you need help testing out a set up let me know. I'm pretty good at data collection.


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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAyers View Post
    Yes, I am OOTTOG. "One of those old guys."

    C'mon Reed, don't make me search for it.

    Please post the link to your photo that proves that the sun truly does shine out of your backside, so La Chasse can see..



  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahbaumgardner View Post

    I am sympathetic toward these reps who are challenged for lacking research data, only because I find it very difficult to envision how such research could be done in a way that these small companies could afford.
    If a company can not afford to appropriately test their"safety" products, they have no business marketing them. Under your scenario, a pharmaceutical company manufacturing a drug for a small group should be excused from testing, if they can't afford it because their user group is small.


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  20. #40
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    If I understood correctly, the discussion was about intrumenting riders, regardless of what vest (or not) they were wearing.

    They were also hoping to get access to the (anonomized) data from the USEA fall forms.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



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