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  1. #21
    DownYonder is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by L&L View Post
    Have a look at the Cleveland bays, there are a lot of homozygous black, red bays within the breed as a whole.
    Thanks, that is the kind of info I am looking for - i.e., red bay foals coming from two EE parents who are black or a darker bay (not chestnut, nor red bay).

    Can you post some links to photos?



  2. #22
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    Sorry for the confusion. The foal pictured with his dam is not the same foal from the black and bay parents. i just wanted to see if he was a red bay. The dam in that pic is a brown bay? The pix attached here is the dam of the horse with the black and bay parents. She is definitely black. I hope this makes sense.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    red bay foals coming from two EE parents who are black or a darker bay
    Thats probably not going to happen because blacks don't have the gene for bay, and most "dark bays" are really browns and also don't have the gene for bay.

    Blacks are aa. "Dark bays" are either Ata or AtAt. "Red Bays" are AA, AAt, or Aa.
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  4. #24

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    This mare http://blumefarm.com/mymares/emroseblumehano.html is out of a chestnut dam. Obviously not a red bay but is Ee



  5. #25
    DownYonder is offline Schoolmaster Premium Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by RiddleMeThis View Post
    Thats probably not going to happen because blacks don't have the gene for bay, and most "dark bays" are really browns and also don't have the gene for bay.

    Blacks are aa. "Dark bays" are either Ata or AtAt. "Red Bays" are AA, AAt, or Aa.
    Then I guess what I am looking for is examples of red bay foals when both parents are homozygous dark bay (i.e., not themselves red bay).

    A friend asked me how to get a red bay foal, and I didn't really know. My former mare was a red bay, but she had a dark bay sire and a chestnut dam. And her three foals were all chestnut, even the two by a dark bay stallion.

    L&L tells me the Cleveland Bays sometimes produce red bay foals from dark bay parents, but again, it seems most of the ones I have run into in the warmblood world have a chestnut parent. So I am still wondering about how the genetics of red bay work.



  6. #26
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    I love the red bay "blood bay" coloring !!

    I have two red bay youngsters, both out of a red bay dam (Weltmeyer line) and by one black and one brown stallion. The red bay dam is by a chestnut stallion and out of a black dam. The red bay dam produces a mix of chestnut, red bay, dark bay and black offspring. I have another dark bay W-line mare that has produced a mix of chestnut, dark bay and brown offspring (the two chestnuts were by a black stallion). Other than the presence of a chestnut ancestor (which both of these dams have), what other predictors are there for producing red bay offspring?

    RiddleMeThis -- You mention that most dark bays are really browns. How can one properly tell the difference between dark bay and brown without doing a genetic test? I thought that some article I had read a few years ago stated that dark bays had a discernable difference between the dark brown of their body/upper leg vs the black of their lower leg and that browns had little difference between the color of the body/upper leg and their lower leg (almost black with some brown hairs through out coat). Unfortunately I cannot find that article and would like to update my understanding of how to visibly differentiate dark bay from brown from seal brown.



  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by back in the saddle View Post
    This mare http://blumefarm.com/mymares/emroseblumehano.html is out of a chestnut dam. Obviously not a red bay but is Ee
    But not bay either - she's brown

    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    Then I guess what I am looking for is examples of red bay foals when both parents are homozygous dark bay (i.e., not themselves red bay).
    But "dark bay" is really brown in nearly every case, unless by "dark bay" you mean "bay but not red bay". So, as per what RMT laid out above, you'll never find a bay, of whatever shade, from 2 brown parents, as neither of them have the bay form of Agouti or they'd be bay, since it's dominant over brown

    What do you mean by "homozygous dark bay"? Both homozygous for black (EE) and homozgyous for bay? The trouble is when you find the EEAA horse, you don't know if that's AA or AAt unless they've been tested for brown at Pet DNA Services

    A friend asked me how to get a red bay foal, and I didn't really know. My former mare was a red bay, but she had a dark bay sire and a chestnut dam. And her three foals were all chestnut, even the two by a dark bay stallion.
    Best chance - 2 red bay parents, at least one of whom is EE

    L&L tells me the Cleveland Bays sometimes produce red bay foals from dark bay parents,
    It depends on your definition of "dark bay". Usually that's really brown, and you're not going to get bay from 2 brown parents. But if they really are just a darker bay, or a bay with sooty which can darken them up, then yes, it's entirely possible

    but again, it seems most of the ones I have run into in the warmblood world have a chestnut parent. So I am still wondering about how the genetics of red bay work.
    The shade of bay (or brown, or chestnut) is a separate set of genetics from either Extension or Agouti. Just like you can get a regular chestnut out of 2 liver chestnuts, you can get a variety of bay shades, as well as brown (and a variety of brown shades) from 2 bay parents, or a black and chestnut parent.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by HVH View Post
    RiddleMeThis -- You mention that most dark bays are really browns. How can one properly tell the difference between dark bay and brown without doing a genetic test?
    Often it's very obvious Guaranteed anything labeled "black bay" is really brown for example. Even the lighter ones with very golden muzzles, and around the eyes, and the flanks, are brown.

    Sometimes they are harder to figure out, especially if you suspect sooty is there, since that can make some bays look brown

    I thought that some article I had read a few years ago stated that dark bays had a discernable difference between the dark brown of their body/upper leg vs the black of their lower leg and that browns had little difference between the color of the body/upper leg and their lower leg (almost black with some brown hairs through out coat). Unfortunately I cannot find that article and would like to update my understanding of how to visibly differentiate dark bay from brown from seal brown.
    It entirely depends on the shade of brown. Browns usually have black points, just like bays, but they might not, they might be very dark chocolate (and even then when the legs are dark brown, the mane/tail are usually still black). But a brown can be fairly light in body color and still have all black points, so there would be a pretty clear delineation.

    It's much more about the tone of the color. Bays, of whatever shade, tend more towards a red undertone, even a bit orange, even those "golden bays". Browns, of whatever shade, tend much more towards golden undertones.
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  9. #29
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    I have a very red bay mare in Abba. She can be very dark to very light in her shades of red. Father was red bay and mom is bay but not red bay. Her mom however was chestnut and sire's father was chestnut. Will try and do pics later.

    Oh yes I did get a red bay from my mare and sire was Padinus who very much was dark bay. I will get pics up of him too. FWIW Padinus was no red factor.

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  10. #30
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    My red bay mare has given me a red bay, a chesnut, a bay with pinto markings (or paint markings, whatever) and a very dark foal (who died during birth). All bred to the same stallion who is a dark bay. The painted one was a shocker, the rest are blingy 10 movers. =)
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post

    L&L tells me the Cleveland Bays sometimes produce red bay foals from dark bay parents, but again, it seems most of the ones I have run into in the warmblood world have a chestnut parent. So I am still wondering about how the genetics of red bay work.
    Sorry if theres been confusion DownYonder what I suggested was to look at the Cleveland Bay breed because only "Bay" is accepted within the breed.

    Was trying to show examples of red bay's that don't carry red factor.



  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by RiddleMeThis View Post
    "Dark bays" are either Ata or AtAt. .
    No....browns are either Ata or AtAt. Bays are never At anything.



  13. #33
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    RMT put "dark bay" in quotes because they are really brown - Ata or AtAt Nearly every 'dark bay" out there is really brown, but most folks just don't know better

    But also, bays can absolutely be "At anything" - they can be AAt
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  14. #34
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    Here's a good website for all the agouti variants: http://www.homozygous-horses.com/agouti.html
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    RMT put "dark bay" in quotes because they are really brown - Ata or AtAt Nearly every 'dark bay" out there is really brown, but most folks just don't know better

    But also, bays can absolutely be "At anything" - they can be AAt
    But that is confusing people more...if they are really brown then just say brown...so people *will* know better!

    My mistake on the second part...I was thinking of something else....



  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by OveroHunter View Post
    Here's a good website for all the agouti variants: http://www.homozygous-horses.com/agouti.html
    Hmmm...I wonder if the artist of those drawn images knows her work is being used on another website...will have to alert her!



  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by vtdobes View Post
    But that is confusing people more...if they are really brown then just say brown...so people *will* know better!
    The reason I put it in quotes is exactly what JB said. And because most times people call them dark bays they are brown. Especially in this conversation. When the OP wants a red bay out of a dark bay shes probably never going to get it because it's brown. IMO there pretty much ISN'T dark bay. It's brown. If its not brown it's just bay.

    And while yes saying oh that horse is brown makes sense, when people dont even know that brown is something separate and they ask "I want to get a red bay from two dark bays. Is it possible?" Saying "No two browns can't make a red bay" doesnt make sense and confuses them more because they don't know the genetics of it.

    Either way it confuses people, and I prefer the way I explained it. Especially since I said dark bays ARE brown and used the genetics of it.
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