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  1. #21
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    OP - I think it would be useful if you could get some video of the horse moving around, just to give people an idea, and also a picture of how he looks w/ the hernia.
    Also, it seems there are some gaps here, which you might want to address perhaps in the give away ad. Horse is now 9; surgeries were a year ago when horse was 8. But he had been showing some spookiness ("baby horse"?? - at 7 or 8 yrs old?) prior to that and was a difficult sell. No mention of ever showing. What was this horse doing w/ his life prior to 8? Is he likely to be an ammy ride - doesn't quite sound that way - or would he need a professional? Be very upfront re his disposition because this is the kind of thing that could ultimately get him sent down the road... Its a big bet to spend the time and $$ on a horse that may be a tough ride when you wont even know for quite a while...
    We don't get less brave; we get a bigger sense of self-preservation........



  2. #22
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    Yes, horses are an extremely risky investment. My family has been completely soured by the situation and we will never invest in horses again.

    We are not going to hide anything from anyone willing to take him on-- we were dealing with some spookiness issues, and he hadn't gotten in the show ring yet (schooled at shows and did a good job, we were just waiting for until he had a chance to REALLY do well before we spent money actually putting him in a class). But it wasn't like he was unworkable or dangerous. We attributed it to him being cut late-- right before he was imported at almost 5 yrs old. Could it have been pain? Perhaps. He didn't display as being a horse in pain, IMO. More like a testy baby.

    We have looked into the option of euthanasia. It's a long story, but some messiness occured the night he required two colic surgeries in 24 hours. There were miscommunications. If all parties had been fully aware of the potential outcomes for a horse after undergoing 2 surgeries, we would have put him to sleep right then and there-- for our sake, and his.

    We have spoken with the vets about euthanasia as an option now. The vets don't believe he is in any pain and aren't willing to do it without reasonable cause. Don't think we haven't looked into it. We obviously agree that euthanasia is a better outcome than many others. I am worried sick over the fact that in his condition his future looks grim-- the potential for falling into a bad situation are high for him- a unproven horse with medical issues. But if we did find a potential home, we would do everything within our power (terms of sale, last rights, etc....) to ensure that he lands safely.

    Does anyone have any experience in that department-- legal precautions/contracts about right of last refusal, etc.?



  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2tempe View Post
    OP - I think it would be useful if you could get some video of the horse moving around, just to give people an idea, and also a picture of how he looks w/ the hernia.
    Also, it seems there are some gaps here, which you might want to address perhaps in the give away ad. Horse is now 9; surgeries were a year ago when horse was 8. But he had been showing some spookiness ("baby horse"?? - at 7 or 8 yrs old?) prior to that and was a difficult sell. No mention of ever showing. What was this horse doing w/ his life prior to 8? Is he likely to be an ammy ride - doesn't quite sound that way - or would he need a professional? Be very upfront re his disposition because this is the kind of thing that could ultimately get him sent down the road... Its a big bet to spend the time and $$ on a horse that may be a tough ride when you wont even know for quite a while...
    Its been such a long time im actually a little foggy on the time frame myself (horse was with trainers, I am at school-- so he not always on forefront of my mind/in my daily life. I know that not an excuse, but its the truth)

    We purchased the horse at about 5 yrs old. He was young, green, and cut late, so we knew he was going to be a longer investment. We had hoped for a year, max. Trainer issues arose-- not going to get into it, but we stayed with the trainers WAY too long than we should have. They were not good at marketing a horse of his quality (didn't have that level networking); told us they were working on it, and we foolishly held out hope. This carried on for about a year I think-- horse was between 6 and 7.

    To make a long story longer, horses training got somewhat neglected as trainers went through some personal and financial issues. Horse was always kept in good health but his training stagnated as he was shuffled between barns as the trainers kept on relocating. They were telling my parents (I was told that this was something I shouldnt have to worry about; my parents didnt want me to get caught up in their investment/financial drama) that they were still trying to sell him, had potential buyers, yada yada... No idea if any of that was ever true. This continued for another year or so. Horse was now 7-8. Finally ended up in NJ and was okay for about 6 months or so before he coliced.

    I know that the 'year by year' time frame may sound like too long to let these problems go on-- but unfortunately that is the case.
    My parents are not horse people. They believed what the trainers told them. The horse was not within their sight at all times; he was in a different barn, then a different state. They had a relationship with the trainers and foolishly kept hoping things would turn around. My parents could have been more on top of things, but this type of thing was so frustrating/so unknown to them I admit they avoided the problem due to lack of knowledge on what else to do. I urged them to find a new trainer for the horse (before he coliced) but it never happened.

    Horse had spookiness issues, yes, but also a lack of consistency/good training/show experience. He probably could have been much better developed in a program that actually had success with investment horses.

    He was getting more mature/growing out of his spookiness when this all happened. Late bloomer, poor training, both?

    Then he coliced, and now we are here.



  4. #24
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    Did horse have insurance for the colic surgeries? Since the hernia was a complication from the colic surgeries, it should of been covered by insurance if your parents had it on this horse.



  5. #25
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    and all your doing is extending his agony- and he will only end up as meat in the end who ever has him cos no one in there right mind in this days economy is going to spend 2k on an op and possible more expense with future colic if he servives a horse thats unridable and for a very long time plus he wont be insurable either
    As much as I love some good hyperbole, it sounds to me like what she's doing is trying to give the horse a chance. It's hardly unreasonable to look into alternative options, I would be doing the same under the circumstances.

    Cava, he's lovely. I would consider this in a heartbeat having seen the pictures, of course, if only I were in the market for another.
    ---
    They're small hearts.


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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by PonyPenny View Post
    Did horse have insurance for the colic surgeries? Since the hernia was a complication from the colic surgeries, it should of been covered by insurance if your parents had it on this horse.
    He was insured for colic, and they covered the surgeries (or in part?) as far as I know. But I think they have dropped him from anything further related to the colic.

    And thank you Trixie, I am trying to do right by this horse. Its hard considering the complexities and length of this whole situation. The horse does deserve for me to exhaust all possible options.



  7. #27
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    I commend you for trying. For saying he deserves your best efforts, and for networking to find him a good home.

    I understand that there is no money tree, and sometimes a decision has to be made for financial reasons.

    If you could afford to fix his hernia and find him a nice cozy place to live out his life, that would be great.

    Giving him away is an option, and it sounds like you will do your best to insure any takers are screened and a good contract will be written.

    If you can't keep him, and can't find a good home, euthanasia IS an option. Please don't think you are at the mercy of vets that see it as a "convenience euthanasia" , and refuse to help you. You SHOULD be able to find a vet that is willing to euth, and if not, a competent person with a firearm is just as humane.

    Best wishes
    I\'m not crazy. I\'m just a little unwell.



  8. #28
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    and all your doing is extending his agony- and he will only end up as meat in the end who ever has him cos no one in there right mind in this days economy is going to spend 2k on an op and possible more expense with future colic if he servives a horse thats unridable and for a very long time plus he wont be insurable either


    Some of the "advice" here just makes me shake my head. "Extending his agony"????? Seriously, it's a hernia, the horse isn't running around with a freaking broken leg! A hernia is a fairly simple fix, the vets have given him a good prognosis to return to sport. I get putting a suffering horse out of it's misery but the quickness at which people here recommend killing a horse with any sort of health problem (or not) is almost astonishing.

    OP, your horse sounds lovely and I am sure you will have no problem rehoming him. Many talented young riders that cannot afford a horse of his quality CAN afford $2000.00 surgery. Just do your best to get the word out and have patience and the right home will come along.
    www.svhanoverians.com

    "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  9. #29
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    I think the right owner for him is someone who

    1) knows exactly what they are buying

    2) has way more than $2K to put into him

    3) has the cajones and vet that will accomplish a euthanasia if it looks like he can't be used for riding.

    Would you mind if his next owners took him with all three conditions, including the last?

    I ask only because he will be hard to insure and hard to sell. He's not yet a horse that just anyone can ride. The "smart money" will know how to care for him well and finish his training.... but they'll also realize that this isn't an investment horse per se; it's one that might turn into a great horse for the one person who puts in the time and takes the risk. And that means that the investor can't make a toxic mortgage out of him if it looks like they should. Instead, the risk is all theirs for the next 20 years.

    I'm not speaking as someone who is cynical, but as someone who crosses her Ts and dots her Is. That's bad if you are sentimental about someone feeding him forever, no matter what. But it's good if you wanted an owner to tailor this horse's treatment, training and the rest exactly to him.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


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  10. #30
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    3) has the cajones and vet that will accomplish a euthanasia if it looks like he can't be used for riding

    The cajones? I am not sure one needs to have balls/courage to accomplish such a thing.
    www.svhanoverians.com

    "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.



  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donella View Post
    3) has the cajones and vet that will accomplish a euthanasia if it looks like he can't be used for riding

    The cajones? I am not sure one needs to have balls/courage to accomplish such a thing.
    I'd need courage to do that if I owned a horse like this.

    It would involve being clear with this horse's owners, myself and everyone who knew this horse and helped me care for him about what I was doing and why.

    Have you called a vet and asked him/her to euthanize a horse who wasn't suffering? Was it easy?
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  12. #32
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    I think you mean cojones.

    Cajones are boxes/drawers.


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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donella View Post


    and all your doing is extending his agony- and he will only end up as meat in the end who ever has him cos no one in there right mind in this days economy is going to spend 2k on an op and possible more expense with future colic if he servive's a horse that's unrideable and for a very long time plus he wont be insurable either


    Some of the "advice" here just makes me shake my head. "Extending his agony"????? Seriously, it's a hernia, the horse isn't running around with a freaking broken leg! A hernia is a fairly simple fix, the vets have given him a good prognosis to return to sport. I get putting a suffering horse out of it's misery but the quickness at which people here recommend killing a horse with any sort of health problem (or not) is almost astonishing.

    OP, your horse sounds lovely and I am sure you will have no problem rehoming him. Many talented young riders that cannot afford a horse of his quality CAN afford $2000.00 surgery. Just do your best to get the word out and have patience and the right home will come along.

    since- you have read it my reply - then you come up with the goodies and buy the horse and take him on


    point is hes really is high risk in maintanance / welfare
    high risk financially
    doesn't do anything
    has been cut so cant use him
    cant be ridden
    cant be insured- only probably for theft or straying

    and what talented rider is going to take on a horse who cant afford to buy one yet spend 2k and more on operations and the high finance this horse is going to cost them
    get real------------



    even if used as companion- which home going to take him
    and what reitrement centre is going to take on a horse or rescue or welfare centre whatever is going to take a horse on thats high in finance when they are all screaming out for donations

    there are horses been dropped of left right and centre - due to the economy or dire strait situations etc and most giveaway's always nearly always have something wrong with them be from a quirk thats never been addressed as most of the time its an educational thing- as with this horse as well or its from abussive situations be that mental or pysical or straved medical etc


    some people need to live in the real world------- the horse is being given up

    as they dont wont to spend any more money on him- read between the lines

    so where on earth do you think the horse will eventually land or end up


    once hes gone- as hes only worth meat money at this time

    responsible owners- yes i am one and have rescued many horses and ponies and re habbed them - but one has to be real in the real world there no pot of gold

    so his future is bleak---------- so why put him through that
    hes not worth anything at all and has nothing going for him so who going to take him on- you nah so give your advice all you want

    its unfair on him- as a horse - i would rather pts knowing he was safe and free from pain or any suffering in the future
    cos the end will be the same - but at least he wont be in a tin or in akill pen ready to be taken for the meat man

    harsh as it is- one has to be realistic - people will not take this horse on the expense out weights his worth as he doesnt do anything

    so in reality your extending his suffering -


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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteyPie View Post
    I think you mean cojones.

    Cajones are boxes/drawers.
    Thank you for the correction. Gringas like me always screw it up.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  15. #35
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    Have you called a vet and asked him/her to euthanize a horse who wasn't suffering? Was it easy


    No, I don't euth horses who aren't suffering. I have three geldings that can't be riding horses but are perfectly sound and I pay for each and every one of them. I go without in other ways. I always said to myself if I have to kill a horse because it becomes inconvenient I will get involved in another sport/career that doesn't require the care of a living, breathing, sentient animal. But that's just me.


    Goeslikestink,

    You are assuming that nobody is interested in taking this horse... all most of us are suggesting is that all options be exhausted BEFORE considering killing a perfectly sound, healthy horse. I know the economy is not great, I know people are getting rid of horses left right and center and I know the horse COULD end up somewhere bad. But it IS a quality horse that could very realistically turn out to be a superstar for someone if they could do a very simple surgery. That is the reality of the situation and any responsible owner would go to huge lengths to try and get this horse lined up with the right person before even thinking of killing the horse. The horse is NOT suffering right now nor is the owner condemning her horse to a bad ending by looking for a suitable home.

    Believe it or not there actually are people out there that DO care for their horses and want the best for them even when things don't turn out as planned. Just killing them is the easy way out and then we all pat each other on the back and tell each other that we are being compassionate. Sorry, I don't buy it. Killing any animal that is not suffering should never, ever be a first resort.
    www.svhanoverians.com

    "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.


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  16. #36
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    I wouldn't be a 100% sure that he's actually in any pain; I know my big guy isn't! My eq horse had not two but THREE colic surgeries as a two year old that left him with 3 hernias, each about the size of an apple. He's now coming 11 and he jumps around 3'6" like it's a ground pole. Over the last year, we've also started to see some good shrinkage in the size of his hernias; and it's all from field work. His vet actually recommended sending him to the track to be a pony horse; galloping apparently helps those muscles rebuild and can cause the hernia(s) to close. We didn't go that route, but we started taking him out to do gallop sets as well as a crap ton of lateral work. The key is keeping him as fit as possible and letting his body naturally figure out how to work around the problem. Obviously, talk to your vet before starting any program, but that was just the experience with my guy. And he's a big, sexy WB, too :P

    I will say that the place Biggie has and always will struggle is with his changes; they are definitely hard for him unless he's in top shape and even then, they're not perfect. I wish you all the best with your boy! I don't suppose that keeping him and enjoying him yourself is an option provided he gets the go-ahead to be in work?
    Last edited by Punkie; Dec. 6, 2012 at 11:22 PM. Reason: grammar
    Nine out of ten times, you'll get it wrong...but it's that tenth time that you get it right that makes all the difference.



  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cava Pony View Post
    He was insured for colic, and they covered the surgeries (or in part?) as far as I know. But I think they have dropped him from anything further related to the colic.
    How come the hernia wasn't fixed as a problem related to the original colic surgery and paid for by the insurance co as such?

    No need to answer if you don't want to, OP. My question isn't important, given where things stand now. It just seems weird that a horse could go from an imported WB (who was cut late, perhaps because someone somewhere thought he was very, very nice) to 2 surgeries, that produced another problem, and now he's not worth $2K. Had this been my imported investment horse, I would have been up the insurance company's butt to get the hernia fixed. That's why I asked.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    1 members found this post helpful.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donella View Post


    Have you called a vet and asked him/her to euthanize a horse who wasn't suffering? Was it easy


    No, I don't euth horses who aren't suffering. I have three geldings that can't be riding horses but are perfectly sound and I pay for each and every one of them. I go without in other ways. I always said to myself if I have to kill a horse because it becomes inconvenient I will get involved in another sport/career that doesn't require the care of a living, breathing, sentient animal. But that's just me.


    Goeslikestink,

    You are assuming that nobody is interested in taking this horse... all most of us are suggesting is that all options be exhausted BEFORE considering killing a perfectly sound, healthy horse. I know the economy is not great, I know people are getting rid of horses left right and center and I know the horse COULD end up somewhere bad. But it IS a quality horse that could very realistically turn out to be a superstar for someone if they could do a very simple surgery. That is the reality of the situation and any responsible owner would go to huge lengths to try and get this horse lined up with the right person before even thinking of killing the horse. The horse is NOT suffering right now nor is the owner condemning her horse to a bad ending by looking for a suitable home.

    Believe it or not there actually are people out there that DO care for their horses and want the best for them even when things don't turn out as planned. Just killing them is the easy way out and then we all pat each other on the back and tell each other that we are being compassionate. Sorry, I don't buy it. Killing any animal that is not suffering should never, ever be a first resort.
    Well, you didn't answer my question about whether or not it would take courage to ask a vet to euthanize a horse who wasn't suffering. (And by the way, it's not clear that this horse isn't suffering a bit. OP said he is frustrated and that interpretation makes sense to me, given his current living situation.)

    Instead, you implied that it wouldn't take courage... perhaps just some callousness.

    And I said in so many words, "Yeah, it would take courage precisely because so many people would feel that the euthanasia was immoral."

    So you don't actually know whether it would take courage or not-- if it would be "easy" to ask a vet to put down a horse not in pain-- because you have a loophole of a principal that would prevent you from ever having to try this bit of action out.

    It's easy to judge from this position, but it doesn't help out people who might consider taking on this horse, or the OP's non-horsey parents who need this bad investment to end one way or another.

    Back On Topic: OP, given the dough you guys have put in already and the amount you are paying now to keep him in what sounds like a show barn, could your parents wrap their mind (or wallet) around fixing the hernia, doing rehab and putting this horse in a cheaper pasture or retirement place? Not a wonderful solution, but perhaps the math works out since board at a retirement facility will be much less than what you guys are probably spending now.

    I wish you guys and your horse the best. There *are* people out there who can put in the care and training he deserves. If it turns out that this horse never should have a performance career, there are some folks who like to ride very pretty trail horses-- it matters to them that they are sitting on gorgeous creatures like this one.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    1 members found this post helpful.

  19. #39
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    OP, I'm hoping you're able to find a good place for him. I would think he could fit well with a pro or a good ammy. A pro might be willing to take a gamble - if he's not the right fit for a personal horse, he could be leased out to advanced students. I would put an ad up on one of the sales sites to get their attention (not Craigslist!).
    I would definitely get some recent pics and video.
    I hope it works out well for him. He's lovely. Bad luck all around. Hopefully that's about to change.
    Born under a rock and owned by beasts!



  20. #40
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    Are you near any large equine hospitals? Someone there may have a connection and know someone willing to do/pay for sx in exchange for the horse. I've seen it happen to horses with other health issues before, no reason it couldn't work for your guy. I commend you for wanting to do what's best for his comfort in the long term. Sometimes the horse may not be suffering now, but there's a big chance he will be in the near future is he leaves your hands. I speak from experience. And yes, it does take courage to euthanize a horse you know to be unhealthy, but the rest of the world looks at and thinks, "but he looks fine right now". Good luck with him.



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