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  1. #61

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    Yes, I agree that a roadblock for many in buying babies/yearlings is that they have to board out. I offer boarding for my youngsters as well with turnout with their classmates. I currently have one that sold as a weanling to a customer in NY, in a few months I will put 60 days on her and she will go to her new home! I also have another foal for a customer in CA. One thing that I always ask of my boarders is that they insure their horses. I do not board as a money making adventure and just do it for my customers therefore, am very concerned of the liability if a youngster where to injure itself.

    I too do think the market has recovered over the past two years. I'm not certain the buying market has caught up with this as I still have people who come and look who think giving a half price offer is appropriate

    I also agree with others that if I have a top prospect - hunters, dressage, jumpers...that is the horse I hold onto at a higher price to make my profit. There are many that breeders end up taking a loss on so you must make up for those with the top ones.

    Eowyn Brewer
    http://www.serendipitysporthorses.com



  2. #62
    Join Date
    Mar. 17, 2006
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    North Central Florida
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    Quote Originally Posted by omare View Post
    "Most people don't own their own farms..."

    I was told by a breeder that they found this a major block to selling babies as people had to board their babies which of course was costly and often in nonbaby friendly environments (like a show barn). I always wondered if breeders would be willing to board baby (for a boarding fee) after sale (as long as said baby was insured of course....) Same wirh getting them broken and going as it seems like some breeders already have good connections with starting horses or live in an area where all that is a lot cheaper.
    We encountered exactly the same reluctance and this is why we have devised a Young Horse Incentive Program. We are very happy to keep our sold foals as long as the buyer wishes. They receive daily handling, preparation for in hand showing at the local Hunter Breeding shows and the YHSs where we are pleased to take them for the experience, long reining when the time comes, backing, starting...We treat them as we do our own and clients have been very happy with this arrangement. We keep costs down to the minimum and are able to provide reports and professional-quality photos gratis and regularly, thanks to Monica's photography career. We, like a previous poster, do require Major Medical and Mortality insurance on the youngster with the buyer as the payee to protect all involved.

    So far, we have done this with four youngsters from 2010 on and by all reports, clients are pleased to have the peace-of-mind that their purchases are being well nourished, cared for and handled properly.

    it is as important to us as it is to the buyer that the foals receive a good start in life and foundation in training.

    There are surely other breeders who offer this same service and I would suggest asking the seller at the outset.
    Last edited by Sakura Hill Farm; Dec. 6, 2012 at 12:41 PM.
    Sakura Hill Farm
    Now on Facebook

    Young and developing horses for A-circuit jumper and hunter rings.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Feb. 2, 2009
    Location
    Boerne, Texas
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borntorun View Post
    I get it. I feed my own horses and run my own barn. I know exactly what it costs and it's extremely expensive for land and feed in the East now. I'm looking at yearlings because I can't find what I want for less than 20K in an older horse. It wasn't a debate over why BROKE 2 year olds cost more. It was about why unbroke 2 year old horses cost so much more than yearlings.

    Theres still a lot of risk to hold onto a nice weanling from the breeders point of view in hopes of selling it for 25K as a rising 3 year old, don't you think?
    I agree there is more risk, but it also does not make sense to sell the weanlings/yearlings at a loss either. It takes quite a bit of work and expense even just to get them to that stage, so if you sell at a loss, you have NO possibility of recouping your investment by putting in more time and training to bring a better price later on.

    I currently have a 2012 weanling filly, a 2011 yearling filly and a soon-to-be 3 y/o 2010 filly for sale, all of which were awarded Premium status and based on their calm disposition and lovely movement, the younger two were called "super hunter prospects" by the GOV judges at their inspections. The older one would probably do fine as a hunter as well, but she is primarily dressage bred.

    To answer your question regarding the price differences between the three, we do not simply put them out in the field after weaning and pull them in again at 3 y/o to start them under saddle. We do a considerable amount of ground training, lunging, ground-driving, long reining, etc. all along, before they ever see a saddle or a rider. When they are physically developed enough (18 mos.+ on average) we put a saddle on them for their groundwork. That is why the price goes up so much between a weanling, a yearling and a 2 y/o even though they are not yet under saddle with a rider.

    By the time we actually get on them, they are totally comfortable and familiar with the feel of a saddle and bridle, in addition to being responsive to the rein aids and voice commands. Being ridden is just the next step in the game to them. Backing them is very easy, no stress, no fireworks or explosions.

    All this time and effort we put into our young horses costs money and the prices we put on them reflect that. In the long term, it saves the buyer money because the young horses progress more easily and quickly through training since they have such a great foundation already in place.

    We also are willing (space permitting) to "keep" our young horses here for the buyer if desired, until the horses are further along in their training and/or are started under saddle. We of course charge board and training fees to do this, but these charges are generally far less than what the buyer would have to pay for the same level of care and services provided someplace else.
    Tricia Veley-First Flight Farm
    Boerne, Texas
    830-537-4150 phone/830-537-4154 fax
    www.firstflightfarm.com
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  4. #64
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    Nov. 28, 2003
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    MO
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanchoAdobe View Post
    I am not sure that unbroken two yr olds cost that much more than yearlings- I think there are far fewer for sale. We are much more likely to let a talented weanling and yearling go at a reasonable price than a two year old. At rising 2, I have worked them through the shoot, sat on them, fooled around on the lunge, ect- I've put time and effort in and can "see the light at the end of the tunnel". It's not much more risk to sit on them for another year or two until they are worth real money- and a top quality, pretty, good moving 3/4 yr old with a super jump can bring more than 25k.

    Interestingly, I find the jumper market far different than the hunter market. Jumper buyers seem to understand that top quality is expensive and hard to find - the jumper babies are mostly gone before they hit the ground (and for more money), even though at 4 a good jumper young horse will be on par price wise with a superstar hunter prospect.

    Have others found the market for foals/young horses far different (and more predictable) for jumper bred than hunter bred ?
    I breed exclusively for jumpers and I have found the market to be consistenly good for young jumper bred babies. I don't quite understand the hunter market for youngsters, for all the reason listed in this thread, so I'm glad to be in the jumper market ! For me, I have a small program, but the vast majority of the horses I have produced have sold either in-utero or before weaning. The exceptions to that are usually fillies that I keep for a while, to see what I'd like to retain for my program, and then I sell the ones I've decided not to keep. I have always heard that the market for jumpers is when they are going and already jumping, but my experience is that there is a strong market for jumper babies with good bloodlines. Most of the jumper people I sell to are well-educated on bloodlines and are often looking for particular bloodlines, as opposed to my (admittedly limited) experience with the hunter buyers.
    Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
    --Winston Churchill
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227
    www.HillsideHRanch.com



  5. #65
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    Sep. 10, 2009
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    I have found this thread to be very interesting. I recently retired my mare and am starting to look for a new project. I am a working amateur with a family and have a budget of around the 15000 dollars. I have been doing a lot of research regarding blood lines etc. over the past two years so that I would have a better chance of being able to pick a talented youngster. I certainly understand that it is a gamble to breed and an expense and think that breeders should make as much money as possible on the gamble. I am glad to see that there are some breeding facilities that will board youngsters until they are older. This has been a major concern as board for me is around 1200 a month with only 2 hours of turn out a day. Obviously not an ideal situation for a young one and hard for me to swallow financially as it could be a few years before riding etc. This has been a big road block with me moving forward. The other road block is not being confident about buying such a young one. I recognize that my budget is not large, but for me it is a lot of money. I know that jumping is one of the most inheritable traits and therfore knowing about bloodlines can be helpful. What I do not know is what in the jump is inherited. If I was looking for a jumper I would probably not be as concerned since style would not be as important as scope. Since I am looking for a hunter, style is important, and I do not know how to recognize that in a yearling. I am also concerned about temprament. My last mare was very quiet on the ground, never a spook and very laid back, but when riden she had a very competitive brain. She was very talented and did well, but did take prep. I do not mind prep, but this did show me that ground and undersaddle personality may be quite different. Once again thank you for all of the information.



  6. #66
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    Dec. 14, 2006
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    Quebec (Canada)
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    For me, I have a small program, but the vast majority of the horses I have produced have sold either in-utero or before weaning.
    I think market is good right now. Economy is not good, but young horse market is obviously better than 4-5 years ago. So buyers have to adjust. There's less foals being bred, so of course the good ones are in demand. So unless the breeder wants to keep them until they are 3yo to have them broke under saddle and shown so he can make better profit on them, the quality young horses will sell fast. To get a real deal as of now is to secure the foal you want when he's in utero. Or, be the first one to inquire if you are lucky enough he has not sold in utero. Or... be prepared to pay for it. Cheap ones are cheap for a reason. You get the occasional deal when owner is sick, or lost his job or retiring from business, but you'll have to look hard for it and be prepared to wait for it.

    As much as I find the idea of paying 1/2 of the shipping cost for a foal you sell a good marketing tool, I also think that if you can't afford the shipping, shop closer to your barn, or shop horses that are priced so you can still have some $ left to bring them home. I live in a remote area, and for years, for clients to be interested just to come and SEE my horses, I had to offer them at very attractive prices. That means that I took into consideration the cost of shipping buyers would have to pay to get the horse they are buying from us to their barn. Now I don't encounter this problem often anymore, because I get to be known in my area.

    Last year I got a lovely Sir Gregory colt. He was born tall, 4 high socks, very masculine and flashy. Got one client interested. Price was 7.5k firm. He wanted to get a 1k discount. I said no. He answered me that I was missing the "chance" to sell my foal. Next week or so said foal was sold for full asking price to a wonderful home. I knew the foal was worth the price asked, why would I loose my tiny profit margin on him?? I evaluate my cost to breed and put on the ground a foal at 6k. Then you have to feed it until he's weaned and register it etc. So to get 7.5k on a quality weaning foal is the BARE minimum, cause in the 6k, I don't count the hours, the stomach cramps of anxiety breeders lives constantly with (did the mare took? will she carry on term, will the foal be healthy, will the mare foal out without DYING, will the foal don't kill himself in a fence, or playing, before I can sell him, etc.), etc.

    This year, I randomly put some ads for the two foals we are expecting in 2013. One will be out of a St.Pr. hanoverian mare with a good production record and nice mareline. He is already under contract. The lady who will get him benefits from a price that is lower than what we would have asked when he will be born. Wise customer, who knows exactly what she wanted and went for it.

    There's a very nice lady who, in 2011 and 2012 contacted me around August each time to buy a foal from us. Each time I had to tell her they were all sold. She don't want to buy in utero. And I understand completely and respect that. I would love to see one of my foals go to her. I hope she will contact us sooner this year...

    Of course, if I get stuck with a yearling I absolutely don't want to keep, I will give you a discount (well... I will price it very cheap so he'll go fast). But the good ones, usually worth the hassle (on a breeder's perspective) of keeping them 2 more years to get a decent price on them are not that much negociable.

    It would be much more easy for everybody if we can just throw in the garbage the whole "negociable" concept. Price your horse the price you want. Period. So buyers knows they'll have to pay THAT price if they want it. Easier for everybody. Clearer too. This is what I do since 2010 and it has worked very well so far for us.
    Last edited by Spike; Dec. 6, 2012 at 02:25 PM.
    Les Écuries d'Automne, Québec, Canada
    Visit EdA's Facebook page!


    3 members found this post helpful.

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Nov. 28, 2003
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    MO
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    Just to clarify (if the above post was referencing my "travel incentive") I don't pay for 1/2 the shipping of a sold horse. We do pay 1/2 the travel costs for the BUYER, if they come to see/try a horse and actually end up buying it. I find that in a geographic area like mine that you have to be creative to convince potential buyers to come to an area that they wouldn't usually consider.
    Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
    --Winston Churchill
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227
    www.HillsideHRanch.com



  8. #68
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    Dec. 14, 2006
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    Quebec (Canada)
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    I don't pay for 1/2 the shipping of a sold horse. We do pay 1/2 the travel costs for the BUYER, if they come to see/try a horse and actually end up buying it.
    Haa!! ok! Must be the language issue thanks for clarifying it to me.
    Les Écuries d'Automne, Québec, Canada
    Visit EdA's Facebook page!



  9. #69
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    Feb. 2, 2003
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    Wynnewood, Oklahoma
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    Interesting discussion and some varying opinions and ideas. But I am left scratching my head somewhat. I think marketing is always a challenge and some people are just darn good at it. Others are more challenged and due to the dynamics of the industry, it's not a one size fits all proposition, either. As both I and Hillside noted, we can afford to market our youngsters for less, but the flip side is convincing buyers to come to this oh so trendy part of the country . It's a little more difficult convincing people to come to Oklahoma or Missouri on a shopping trip as part of a mini vacation than say - Florida. So sometimes, what is gained on the roundabouts are lost on the swings. Buyers will also have to pay to ship the horse further in most cases. But, it is what it is.

    I prefer selling all of the babies while they are babies especially after my last couple years of injuries. I've reached the point that I'm not climbing on young, green horses anymore and SOMEONE has to start those three and four year olds which means finding someone that you trust to do it right, and of course, more expenditures. The biggest issues we find is getting photos and videos when they are looking their best. This time of year we have more time but everyone is a hair ball. In the spring, everyone is sleek and shiny and not sun-bleached, but we're busier than one armed paper hangers, so videos and photos are NOT a priority. Add to that, Jos and I have decided that photographing and videoing horses together is a divorce-able offense or at the very least, may need to be put out there as a full contact sport. Fortunately, most of the kids are gone before we have to resort to doing anything with them, but occasionally, it happens.

    The one thing that we try to do and I think it does help, is if we don't have what a buyer is looking for, we refer them to someone else that may have an appropriate match. It's no skin off our noses if someone else gets the sale and it engenders good will It's distressing sometimes to see the dog eat dog and negative demeanor that is sometimes so pervasive on these boards. And the negative thumb down thing that was added here is just another way to promote that. Heck, even some of the comments made to the OP here were not particularly kind or helpful! For crying out loud - she/he may very well have been on your website and without knowing it, you may have tanked your sale! I love breeders like Allie/Worth A Shot Farm who I have yet to see post something negative, snarky or demeaning - even if I don't agree with everything she says!

    When I post here, I truly try to take a giant step back and take the emotion out of what I post or how I respond. I recognize that it is so easy to take offense or to offend, even where none is intended. I also realize that it's not always rainbows and roses on these boards, but I think if we support each other, try to be helpful and positive, it is a much better community for everyone...or maybe I'm not drinking enough eggnog these days :P. But truly...am I missing something here?

    Happy Holidays everyone!
    Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
    Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity


    9 members found this post helpful.

  10. #70
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    Dec. 14, 2006
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    Quebec (Canada)
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    Despite having felt the need to express how I feel as a breeder, I think Kathy is absolutely right in what she said:

    The one thing that we try to do and I think it does help, is if we don't have what a buyer is looking for, we refer them to someone else that may have an appropriate match. It's no skin off our noses if someone else gets the sale and it engenders good will It's distressing sometimes to see the dog eat dog and negative demeanor that is sometimes so pervasive on these boards. And the negative thumb down thing that was added here is just another way to promote that. Heck, even some of the comments made to the OP here were not particularly kind or helpful! For crying out loud - she/he may very well have been on your website and without knowing it, you may have tanked your sale! I love breeders like Allie/Worth A Shot Farm who I have yet to see post something negative, snarky or demeaning - even if I don't agree with everything she says!
    I think why breeders like me or other take offense sometimes is that it is so hard to try to just survive as breeders and produce good foals, that when people around don't seem to think what you are sacrifying so much for, what you are working your a** off each day from 5am to 10pm and more sometimes, worth to be recognized at its just value, it is easy to just... vent. And where else but a breeding board to do so and try to let some steam out lol!

    But Kathy is right, we should (me first) take one or two pairs of white gloves before doing so

    When I post here, I truly try to take a giant step back and take the emotion out of what I post or how I respond. I recognize that it is so easy to take offense or to offend, even where none is intended. I also realize that it's not always rainbows and roses on these boards, but I think if we support each other, try to be helpful and positive, it is a much better community for everyone...or maybe I'm not drinking enough eggnog these days :P. But truly...am I missing something here?
    Les Écuries d'Automne, Québec, Canada
    Visit EdA's Facebook page!


    2 members found this post helpful.

  11. #71
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    Mar. 11, 2009
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    I love threads that end up being quality discussion and great opportunity for learning! Sakura mentioned that jumper and hunter foals are on par price wise as foals- does everyone find this to be true?
    In my experience a top jumper foal, especially a filly, is a minimum of $15,000 and can be as high as $20,000. Rarely do I see even a super hunter advertised for more than 12,000 and many closer to $10,000. As I'm looking to add another hunter mare to the herd, I have really been trying to put a finger on what makes a certain hunter foal more desirable than the next? Is it bloodlines? Performance record of mare? Redwine babies sold at top of market for years- why him (just as example) over Cunningham who has lengthy performance record and solid bloodlines?

    With jumpers it seems much more straightforward - I hate to say this but jumper buyers as a whole seem much more knowledgeable. They want to see the dam line has produced for sporthorse, they want to see production of approved stallions and international horses, they want to see performance record of mare, ect...

    Thoughts?



  12. #72
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    In regards to Redwine: Marketing, pure and simple. Jill may be many horrible things, but no one can argue that she isn't a marketing genius.
    Not all who wander are lost.

    Ralando II


    1 members found this post helpful.

  13. #73
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    Mar. 17, 2006
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    North Central Florida
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    ^ This. Cunningham has proven talent as a derby horse and outstanding conformation not to speak of impeccable bloodlines. Redwine is a very beautiful animal, to be sure, who has benefitted from amazing promotion. The proof of the pudding will be in the performance of his offspring not only in hunter breeding but also in the perfomance ring.
    Sakura Hill Farm
    Now on Facebook

    Young and developing horses for A-circuit jumper and hunter rings.



  14. #74
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    Do breeders find that marketing becomes a greater percentage of the equation in the hunter bred foals?



  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanchoAdobe View Post
    ....As I'm looking to add another hunter mare to the herd, I have really been trying to put a finger on what makes a certain hunter foal more desirable than the next? Is it bloodlines? Performance record of mare? oved stallions and international horses, they want to see performance record of mare, ect...

    Thoughts?
    We have, at times , had trainers make inquiries for their clients who were interested solely in purchasing progeny of mares with stellar hunter performance careers. This is not always the case, but can occur. Just a tip as you add to your herd.
    Sakura Hill Farm
    Now on Facebook

    Young and developing horses for A-circuit jumper and hunter rings.



  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by RanchoAdobe View Post
    Do breeders find that marketing becomes a greater percentage of the equation in the hunter bred foals?
    I find marketing is a HUGE part of the equation regardless of whether it is hunter, dressage or jumper. If the sire is well known, well promoted and "out there", it helps with the marketing of his offspring. Regardless of how fantastic the sire is, if he is essentially unknown, it makes it a bit more difficult to market the foals. It creates an aura of success and success "breeds" success <smile>...no pun intended!
    Equine-Reproduction.com Now offering one on one customized training!
    Leg-Up Equestrian Assistance Program, Inc. A 501(c)(3) non-profit charity



  17. #77
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    Jun. 16, 2007
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    Default do the best job

    I kind of feel sorry for the buyers and the babies. You all put so much pressure on the whole buying the perfect...hunter, dressage, jumper...young horse. The huge majority of horses don't achieve their owners goals because the plans were incomplete or they went awry or they were over ambitious for the RIDER/OWNER not for the horse. I know it is winter and shopping and over thinking is what we do in the winter but maybe just find the 6 best young candidates in your area and pick the one and get on with it...learn succeed or fail...do the best you can by that young horse. Make it a fine young citizen, well made and if it is not the "right" one then sell it proudly to it's new person and shop again with what you have learned. PatO


    8 members found this post helpful.

  18. #78
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    That is my goal with any horse I own. THEY get to decide what they want to be. I do my best to make them well rounded, and to do the best by them, but at the end of the day, what they end up doing as a career is totally up to them.
    Not all who wander are lost.

    Ralando II



  19. #79
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    Sep. 12, 2007
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    Default I have met and talked to some WONDERFUL horse people!

    Quote Originally Posted by Equine Reproduction View Post
    Interesting discussion and some varying opinions and ideas. But I am left scratching my head somewhat. I think marketing is always a challenge and some people are just darn good at it. Others are more challenged and due to the dynamics of the industry, it's not a one size fits all proposition, either. As both I and Hillside noted, we can afford to market our youngsters for less, but the flip side is convincing buyers to come to this oh so trendy part of the country . It's a little more difficult convincing people to come to Oklahoma or Missouri on a shopping trip as part of a mini vacation than say - Florida. So sometimes, what is gained on the roundabouts are lost on the swings. Buyers will also have to pay to ship the horse further in most cases. But, it is what it is.

    I prefer selling all of the babies while they are babies especially after my last couple years of injuries. I've reached the point that I'm not climbing on young, green horses anymore and SOMEONE has to start those three and four year olds which means finding someone that you trust to do it right, and of course, more expenditures. The biggest issues we find is getting photos and videos when they are looking their best. This time of year we have more time but everyone is a hair ball. In the spring, everyone is sleek and shiny and not sun-bleached, but we're busier than one armed paper hangers, so videos and photos are NOT a priority. Add to that, Jos and I have decided that photographing and videoing horses together is a divorce-able offense or at the very least, may need to be put out there as a full contact sport. Fortunately, most of the kids are gone before we have to resort to doing anything with them, but occasionally, it happens.

    The one thing that we try to do and I think it does help, is if we don't have what a buyer is looking for, we refer them to someone else that may have an appropriate match. It's no skin off our noses if someone else gets the sale and it engenders good will It's distressing sometimes to see the dog eat dog and negative demeanor that is sometimes so pervasive on these boards. And the negative thumb down thing that was added here is just another way to promote that. Heck, even some of the comments made to the OP here were not particularly kind or helpful! For crying out loud - she/he may very well have been on your website and without knowing it, you may have tanked your sale! I love breeders like Allie/Worth A Shot Farm who I have yet to see post something negative, snarky or demeaning - even if I don't agree with everything she says!

    When I post here, I truly try to take a giant step back and take the emotion out of what I post or how I respond. I recognize that it is so easy to take offense or to offend, even where none is intended. I also realize that it's not always rainbows and roses on these boards, but I think if we support each other, try to be helpful and positive, it is a much better community for everyone...or maybe I'm not drinking enough eggnog these days :P. But truly...am I missing something here?

    Happy Holidays everyone!
    I would like to commend those breeders/owners out there that I have personally talked to and met in person over the past few months. I have sincerely enjoyed talking with each and every one of you and ALL have been nice and willing to answer my questions. Although the horses haven't worked-out for one reason or another, I've found the PEOPLE to be very accomodating and truly in love with their horses. It's something that bonds all us crazy horse people and I'm glad I'm one of them


    4 members found this post helpful.

  20. #80
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    And FYI......I have been to MOST of the breeders websites listed in this thread and I have done my homework on breeds and bloodlines. I have searched in every knook and cranny for horses, been to all the breed registry websites and traveled to BIG national horse shows to look at whats winning. I have NOT limited myself to any particular breed, bloodline, size, color, location....I have bought off videos and shipped horses across the country before so I don't let locale factor into my decision. A good horse is a good horse and I will figure out the logistics. I have said in the past that I don't care if it's half donkey if it moves well and has a quiet temperament. I do agree that my best bet is to buy a weanling, coming yearling. Although it's much longer to wait, I can enjoy doing ALL the groundwork training and by the time he/she is ready to break, it should be a snap.

    There is no such thing as the "perfect prospect". All I can do is make my best, educated guess and take the plunge! I'm not a perpetual shopper or tire-kicker and I'm ready to BUY.

    So to all the breeders out there, thank you for advertising on-line so I can find you. There are plenty of adult ami's out there (like myself) that showed years ago and want to get back into it who don't have last names like Springsteen and unlimited budgets! LOL

    Have pity on us poor, regular working folks, who slave 9-5 at our jobs, then come home and have to muck stalls, feed horses, mow pastures and only get to ride on the weekends. We have limited time and $, but yearn to have that one, special "dreamhorse"


    3 members found this post helpful.

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