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  1. #41
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    I wanted to share one of Taez -- this is a GP freestyle:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrhLRs7AqEo
    Quote Originally Posted by HuntrJumpr
    No matter what level of showing you're doing, you are required to have pants on.



  2. #42
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    Love Balagur! he is a horse that is working his heart out and that is the kind of horse i would love to ride

    he proves you dont need to be mr fancy pants flashy mover to do great things



  3. #43
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    1 members found this post helpful.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    Every horse is "suitable for dressage." Meaning, every horse can be trained to use his body correctly and harmoniously under saddle, calm, forward, straight and on the aids. Every horse's gaits can be developed to the limits of what Nature has given him to work with; and, yes, most horses can attain some if not all of the movements we classify now as "FEI." These movements are natural, after all.

    If judges were judging correctly, as Dr. Max Gahwyler told me in the early 90's, they would be judging how the horse is using himself based on what his conformation says he should be able to do. Unfortunately, that requires an "eye" honed over a lifetime of riding, training and observation as well as intimate knowledge of conformation, movement, equine physiology and psychology. I've just described probably a handful of all the judges roaming the Earth!

    A so-called "trainer" once got on my QH who did not tolerate rough riding. He grabbed a big handful of reins and crammed his nose in by sheer force, then slammed his "driving" seat into the horse's back. And promptly got what he asked for--an express ride straight up and over backwards! Dusting himself off, he opined in his heavy accent that "This horse is suitable only for meat!"

    Trying not to snicker, I said "He never does that with me, but then I don't ride him like a butcher!" That horse, like the wonderful Arab in the video, went on to do very nice upper-level work indeed.

    Success in dressage is a matter of human self-discipline and consistent application of truly correct principles day in and day out for years. You get there.

    Can every horse be competitive with those bred specifically for that purpose? Different question. Answer is No, but then that is not everyone's ambition.
    Like, like, like!!!!!



  5. #45
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    There used to be a LOT of "average movers at the top. The one that comes to mind most recently is Max ridden by Kyra Kyrklund. Certainly not impressive, but very correct. Brentina had her movements, but was not what I would call a super mover, but very correct.

    Dressage is SUPPOSED to be something ALL horses do naturally, so ALL horses CAN do the GP movements with varying degrees of quality in them. In the past 10 years we've actually seen flamboyant movement combined with the movements, but that hasn't always been so.

    And I don't agree it takes something so special. With time, training, and conditioning, pretty much every horse should be able to do it to some degree. I think it has more to do with the determination of the rider. Chelsey is a good example of that.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lost_at_C View Post
    Sorry, but why would you assume that? I didn't get that impression from the OP at all. I can think of plenty of warmbloods that lack stunning paces or breathtaking conformation, and I also know of quite a few non-WBs who DO possess those traits.

    ...I don't want to go too off-topic but I just can't understand the increasing self-
    segregation by people who ride non-WBs in dressage. This term "off-breed" is horribly counterproductive IMO. "Average mover" is much better.
    Slow down. I'm not being a crazy non breed can't do dressage person. I call them off breeds because that's what i choose to call them. Heck I have mine in my backyard right now and he is a apha registered horse. Not really a dressage horse. If I saw a Dutch warmblood running barrels at a show or roping cattle I'd say it was an off breed also. I call them this because this is not what they were bred to do. I'm sorry my paint is more built for a roping horse and what his breeding is for so IMO he is an off breed for dressage but idc that is what we are doing and having fun at it with hopes of getting him to 3rd possibly 4th. He is an off breed and that's all it is. Not meaning anything derogatory just calling a spade a spade. Why do we all have to be so politically correct.
    To answer your question, why I assume she is meaning an off breed. Because, what she asked to see. She doesn't want to see a spectacular dressage horse video she wants an average horse which IMO means something that was not bred or built for upper levels of dressage. Yes, there is bad breeding in WBs and some may not have the perfect movement or conformation but truthfully IMO you'd be hard pressed to find perfect conformation in a lot of upper level horses. They maybe built nicer than other horses but being perfect is hard to live up to.
    Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole


    1 members found this post helpful.

  7. #47
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    Oh Wow......I didn't realize this would turn into such a long thread. I don't have time to read any of the replies tonight but I will try to get to read them tomorrow night.

    I did want to address the reason I had asked..........

    I sometimes feel that I expect to much from my own horse. He's nicely built and a decent mover but will never be highly competitive in the show ring. I have a vision in my mind of what I want us to look like and I think it may be skewed by watching so many fancy horses. I wanted to take a look at some of the other horses and give myself a more realistic picture of where we are going. Make sense?


    6 members found this post helpful.

  8. #48
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    Yes. That makes total sense. Get out to some big dressage shows. You will see that probably 99.9% of the tests are like watching grass grow. Only a handful of horses show the extravagant movement that you have probably seen in the videos that are passed around again and again on the internet, such as Blue Hors Matine, Totilas, Paragon, Valegro, etc.
    "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #49
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    yes just go to a horse show. You are comparing yourself to the world's best. When you worry about being good enough against that measure, it's no wonder you wouldn't want to leave the barn

    Go. Show. Learn. Have fun. It's just a horse show.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  10. #50
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    Better yet, go to some local dressage schooling shows AND some unrecognized local horse trials. You'll see all kinds of folks taking home good ribbons on very workmanlike beasts, who put in a solidly accurate, if not brilliant, test while many of the "fancy" ones are so busy bouncing off the walls, jumping out of their skins and even out of the arena, that the judge is hard-put to score them.

    I once had to ride a test at a big regional show on my 15.1 hh. QH, whose lengthening was a 6 on a good day, having drawn a spot between Suzanne Handler and Lendon Gray. Fortunately, by that time I had learned to have fun and not bother being intimidated . . .

    Ride not for the score, but for your personal best ride. If you can produce accuracy, harmony, and soft and correct acceptance of the aids, and do it all the time, you'd be really surprised at the ribbons you hang on the dashboard! (And boy, does that p*ss off the folks who've invested six figures . . . )


    3 members found this post helpful.

  11. #51
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    The video of the Arabian is great, because it shows how the work has developed his musculature. That is inspirational to me.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabicon View Post
    Slow down. I'm not being a crazy non breed can't do dressage person. I call them off breeds because that's what i choose to call them. Heck I have mine in my backyard right now and he is a apha registered horse. Not really a dressage horse. If I saw a Dutch warmblood running barrels at a show or roping cattle I'd say it was an off breed also. I call them this because this is not what they were bred to do. I'm sorry my paint is more built for a roping horse and what his breeding is for so IMO he is an off breed for dressage but idc that is what we are doing and having fun at it with hopes of getting him to 3rd possibly 4th. He is an off breed and that's all it is. Not meaning anything derogatory just calling a spade a spade. Why do we all have to be so politically correct.
    My post wasn't aimed solely at you, and sorry if you thought it was. I have zero interest in political correctness, but I DO have an interest in promoting dressage as an activity for all horses of all breeds and all disciplines. The big difference between dressage and barrel-racing, cattle roping, showjumping, etc is that dressage is FOUNDATIONAL to all these other activities - there is no discipline that would not benefit from classical dressage training, as evidenced by even the racehorses who've been aided by it. In that way there can be no "off" breeds, but it seems to be the people on non-warmbloods who use that term the most. My opinion only of course, and I'm only trying to provide food for thoughtfulness.
    Proud COTH lurker since 2001.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurPlexed View Post
    I did want to address the reason I had asked..........

    I sometimes feel that I expect to much from my own horse. He's nicely built and a decent mover but will never be highly competitive in the show ring. I have a vision in my mind of what I want us to look like and I think it may be skewed by watching so many fancy horses. I wanted to take a look at some of the other horses and give myself a more realistic picture of where we are going. Make sense?
    Thanks, OP, I'm the one that asked. Again, I'd recommend the On the Levels DVD from the USDF for a clearer picture of what the judges are looking for at each level. Or attend a clinic and watch (or ride) to see what the clinician recommends for horses at your level. Or take a lesson.

    Good luck and enjoy the ride!



  14. #54
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    Irish draughts were designed to be all around horses with good jumper foxhunter abilities being paramount - so not bred to be a fancy moving dressage horse. Here are 2 stallions currently out showing and competitive with WB dressage bred horses

    Steeped in Luck RID (Irish Draught) I1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZofYIZZOFTI

    Lionwood Kinsales lad PSG
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VW7SWozGbg
    Epona Farm
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurPlexed View Post
    I sometimes feel that I expect to much from my own horse. He's nicely built and a decent mover but will never be highly competitive in the show ring. I have a vision in my mind of what I want us to look like and I think it may be skewed by watching so many fancy horses. I wanted to take a look at some of the other horses and give myself a more realistic picture of where we are going. Make sense?
    I have a suggestion - start having someone video your show rides. Watch them immediately after the show if you like - it's educational. However, keep at the training and the learning, hold on to the videos, and then look at them in order over the year or every three months or at some interval that makes sense given how you think you are progressing.

    Just for grins last weekend (probably because I am missing showing after only a month off) I watched me and Mr Ay-rab do the same test as done in July and then as done in September. It was amazing to me how much he had improved - and I'm sure that if I would do the same test now he would look even better - we've been on a roll lately. Then I looked at the video from July 2011 of the same test - when I thought I had done OK - and I was both embarrassed that we had gone into public riding like that and thrilled with how much better we are now.

    I guess all this is a long winded way of saying....ride for yourself and your improvement. Celebrate your own progress - if you keep at it - others will notice and you will have lots of reasons to be happy with yourself. Seriously!

    PS I ride a very nice Arab gelding that I got from CL for $300 who I love to death. We were green (to dressage) on green but I've had a great time improving my riding and trying to make progress.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  16. #56
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    I know due to recent events Gwen Stockebrand's name may be anathema around here, but relevant to this topic, one should remember that her best International mount and Pan Am medallist was Bao, a TWH/Morgan cross from her parent's pack string. I did a quick internet search and couldn't find any video, but I saw him in person back in the day, and I must say, he didn't look much like either breed, other than being "upright" in front. He was a solid bay, and could piaffe/passage FOREVER. I was told that when he showed in Europe, they put his breed as "American Saddle Horse" (not American Saddlebred). I suppose these days, they'd probably just say "American Warmblood." LOL

    I do have to agree that there are WB's that aren't AllThat as movers, and "off breeds" that are lovely movers. My own present horse is a very good mover, and he's an Araloosa, sired by a Crabbet line Trakehener- approved Arab (unfortunately that stallion is now deceased) out of a BIG Foundation bred Appy mare.
    Last edited by Sandy M; Dec. 5, 2012 at 06:02 PM.



  17. #57
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    Lost at c. I know exactly what you are saying and my old barrel horse that was a 14.3 qh could do second level movements lol sometimes he could piaffe (not pretty or correct but he thought he was something with it) he also could jump 4th nicely. We never showed in that he was my barrel racer and that's what we did but he had a basis of dressage and I believe in all those areas it's great. What I was saying with off breeds is that yes while all horses should have a lower level dressage foundation certain breeds are built to excel in certain areas. A wb usually isn't going to succeed in running barrels but I'm sure there are a few out there that could do it and be great at it. There is a difference between training to 2nd and then 3rd and up levels just like running barrels at a saddle club or running them at national rodeos. Some horses are just built to succeed and this is why I call them off breeds. Not because dressage is Etlitist but because some are just made to go up the levels just like barrel racing is not elitist or roping is not but they have their certain breeds that excel and certain bloodlines also. I have never had a wb to compete. I have shopped for them but found I like an old qh type personality for me. Maybe I'll never make it to grand prix but that's ok. It's my dream one day but it wont kill me if not.
    Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole



  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by horsetales View Post
    Irish draughts were designed to be all around horses with good jumper foxhunter abilities being paramount - so not bred to be a fancy moving dressage horse. Here are 2 stallions currently out showing and competitive with WB dressage bred horses

    Steeped in Luck RID (Irish Draught) I1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZofYIZZOFTI

    Lionwood Kinsales lad PSG
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VW7SWozGbg

    OMG, never heard of Tom Dvorak, but I can watch him ride for days. I don't usually have the attention span to watch an entire test, but I watched his!

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).



  19. #59
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    Aug. 25, 2012
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    I DO go to shows. Problem is I'm always showing and never have time to watch much. When I do watch it's normally the upper levels (where most of the horses are really nice and bred for the job------unless they just look like that bc they've been trained properly)!! lol I rarely have time to watch my level anything close to it.

    The thing is I just think sometimes keep asking and asking and asking and it's never going to be the flashy, floaty type of horse. Of course I can make him the best that he will be and that's fine by me but sometime it's nice to see other people who've actually dealt with the average horse and just continued on.

    I've been waiting to move up a level now for the past year just because I didn't think his gaits were competitive enough. I think I just need to ride him to his best ability and ride accurately with suppleness and throghness and not worry if he's wow-ing anyone. He may never wow anyone lol That's fine with me....(it will have to be) The funny thing is he does look so beautiful when he's ridden properly. He's looks about 2" taller and his movement is greatly improved.

    Maybe as we continue on someone on the sidelines one day will say "Oh,. look at the beautiful WB" and it will be meeeeee



  20. #60
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    Of course I can make him the best that he will be and that's fine by me but sometime it's nice to see other people who've actually dealt with the average horse and just continued on.

    There's actually more than a few of us who have dealt with the "average" horse and just continued on. I guess it depends on what you consider good work and exactly what is the measuring stick - show scores, medals, a respected trainer/judge's opinion, etc? I know at least 3 who post here including myself who have taken average and obtained our silver medal and one who's gone higher. I have another average critter who's competing at third and still another who's competing at second. Scores are in the low to mid 60s. Mediocre gaits and tension are what keep our scores low. Now I also have a "princess" of the same breed who is scoring in the 70s because she's that nice of a mover and even with mistakes she just has to show up to get a nice score. This is only at training level (she is green) but it really highlights for me the difference that good gaits make. However, my point is that good and correct training can take you far and at least for me much farther than I ever would have hoped. My very average and conformationally challenged guy is learning P&P and we're doing it more for MY education than his. I can't say if we'll ever be strong enough and decent enough to compete above PSG but I don't know if I will ever have another horse this willing and with so much heart. I figure I will give it a try despite very average (6) gaits and see what we find at the other end of the rainbow You know I've achieved more when I've worried less about what my horse(s) don't have and worked hard to maximize all that they DO have.
    Last edited by exvet; Dec. 5, 2012 at 10:25 PM.
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