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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec. 14, 2006
    Location
    Quebec (Canada)
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    806

    Default Opinions on why registries ask buyer (and not seller) to do transfer of ownership...

    It might be only because registries are often based in USA and I am in Canada and laws might be different... But still.

    Why do registries ask buyers to pay for transfer of ownership? I have always tought that a good breeding practice was for the seller (breeder) to ensure that the papers will follow the foal or the horse sold, and consequently, I use to do it (and pay it) myself, unless otherwise agreed with buyer (wich is rare).

    But by doing so.. I am basically either buying to the buyer a one year membership that he could not care less to get (like with GOV)... Because even if I am an active member, the buyer is NOT and GOV requires the buyer to be a member in order to get the discounted fee. If the buyer is a member, the fee is low. If buyer's not a member, then the fee is 100$++ AND includes a one year membership for the buyer. I end up, because I want to do things right (be sure that the papers follows the horse I am selling), paying memberships to all my clients! Why there's not the option of seller's paying so if he's a member he gets the discounted fee, and no membership for the buyer... who.. 99% of the time is not a breeder and have basically no use of becoming a GOV member (especially in Canada...where we do not have all these awards etc.)

    Or, like another registry (not to name the ISR), it is again the buyer who has to sign etc and pay. I am not a member anymore, so price wise, I would not benefit from a member-discounted fee and I'm fine with that, but even if I would be a member, I would not benefit from a discounted fee: They have a buyer's a member fee ($40ish) then a buyer's not a member fee ($80ish), and a become-a-member+tranfer-of-ownership fees of $120ish wich is basically the same cost than the non-member fee + price to become a member + transfert the ownership fee added all together. Wich is NOT a deal imho, but again, I have to rely on the buyer to send the document back to me after signing it, so I can put the cheque with it and send it to the ISR office?? Or, I have to send the not-signed form, with a cheque, to the buyer, and tell him to mail all that to the ISR office...

    Are you all relying on buyers to transfer the papers? Are you all paying those fees for each of the new buyers? Are you asking the buyer to pay it?

    Why registries cannot have on their transfer of ownership form the option for the SELLER to pay, and to sign and to say.. "Yes, I have sold X horse to Y person, please transfer the ownership to him in your files and btw, I am paying for it so as I am a member can I pretty please get the discounted fee as I am trying to do the right thing here for that horse as I want the papers to follow him"??

    Ok, it is not the LEGAL tranfer, but only the one for the registry purpose, but still, it is important.

    Another thing that annoys me... Why on earth do the ISR Oldenburg NA allows for NAME CHANGE (when mare/stallion are not yet approved) ???? Is it not something we are working hard for (that horses keep their registration name forever... so we can track them back)?? Is there other registries that allows that? Can I request from the registry, as a breeder, to prohibit name change on horses I have bred? Like a red tag NO NAME CHANGE ALLOWED in my foals's files??

    Because... I get it that it is better that the registry tracks the name change than no tracking at all of it, but asking for the new name on the transfer of ownership form is like opening the door to it... or... not? The very first filly I've bred, was registered with ISR and her new owner did changed her name. She told me, I was fine with it (the filly was 7 months old) but I never got any notice from the registry, saying something like: "hey you breeder, please take note that X horse you have bred, well, his name has changed as of today for... " I don't need to know who bought etc... just that the name has been changed.

    Like to hear what you think about those two things.
    Last edited by Spike; Dec. 4, 2012 at 12:56 PM.
    Les Écuries d'Automne, Québec, Canada
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  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar. 12, 2006
    Location
    Western South Dakota
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    2,446

    Default

    I think it stinks that registries and the USEF charge what they do for transfer of ownerships. If the fees were reasonable, more people would do them.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan. 2, 2006
    Location
    Colorado
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    2,189

    Default

    I agree - however, the Welsh, Arabian and Trakehner registries require the seller to sign paperwork to transfer ownership (although not pay for it). New Trakehner owners get a year's free membership though, so the transfer fee is only $30.

    I am actually surprised that stallion owners don't include registration in the semen contract ie that the stallion owner will pay for registration. You'd think it would benefit the stallion owner to have registered foals, but I've never seen it offered.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct. 11, 2007
    Location
    Andover, MA
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    Default

    I know a couple of breeders -- small scale here -- who will turn around and pay the necessary fees *for* the purchaser, to be sure the horse is registered. One I know does it as part of the purchase transaction and the buyer doesn't leave with the horse until everything's signed, sealed, and ready for the seller to put in the mail!
    You have to have experiences to gain experience.

    Proudly owned by Mythic Feronia, 1998 Morgan mare; G-dspeed Trump & Minnie; welcome 2014 Morgan filly MtnTop FlyWithMeJosephine


    1 members found this post helpful.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun. 9, 2008
    Posts
    173

    Default

    There is a factor that may make be a contributor to the difference between practices in Canada and the USA. In Canada, it is actually a legal requirement under the Animal Pedigree Act that the registration of animals of a Canadian breed be transferred by the seller within six months after the sale unless notation to the contrary was made:
    64. No person shall
    (j) without an express statement that the animal’s registration, identification or status as a purebred is from a jurisdiction other than Canada and that the animal will not be registered or identified in Canada by the person, sell, as registered or identified, or as eligible to be registered or identified, or as a purebred, any animal without providing to the buyer thereof within six months after the sale the animal’s duly transferred certificate of registration or certificate of identification.

    Animal Pedigree Act 64;(j)
    The USA does not have a similar Act of any sort, so there is no precedent or legal requirement to make that transfer.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb. 5, 2003
    Location
    Ballston Spa, NY, USA
    Posts
    234

    Default

    A transfer of ownership in the AHHA costs $25. Yes, the new owner has to be a member and if they are not, it is an additional $85. I have, in the past included with the signed transfer of ownership form, a check for the new membership. I did that in the interest of insuring that the transfer gets done, and to try to get a new person interested in Holsteiners. I don't do it much anymore.

    What frustrates me as a breeder is when owners of Minglewood bred horses do not register them for year end awards programs. Many of them are winning! It would be really good for my program and it only costs $25. I've even offered to pay! Oh well. I'll stop venting now.
    Maryanne Nicpon
    Minglewood Sport Horses
    Ballston Spa, NY



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb. 23, 1999
    Location
    Cypress, near Houston, Texas
    Posts
    8,438

    Default

    Maryanne, the only way to make sure that they get transferred and registered for year end awards is if you do it yourself as the seller. Seems these awards are more important to us breeders than the owners. So, I always do it.

    Same with the dogs I breed. I now register every puppy, pay for the microchipping and the lifetime enrollment in the recovery program. Better that I pay and know it is done than worry about it.
    Visit Sonesta Farms website at www.sonestafarms.com or our FaceBook page at www.facebook.com/sonestafarms. Also showing & breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb. 11, 2003
    Location
    Lincoln, CA, USA
    Posts
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    Motivation for the new owner to transfer a Hanoverian in their name with the AHS is multi faceted but one of the good reasons is - They get a free year membership!
    www.immunallusa.com
    www.rainbowequus.com Home of stallions that actually produced champion hunter, jumper and dressage offspring and now also champion eventers


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun. 8, 2009
    Location
    Ontario
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    555

    Default

    With the CWHBA it is the sellers responsibility to transfer the papers. The buyer does not need to be a member to do so.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb. 5, 2003
    Location
    Ballston Spa, NY, USA
    Posts
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    Default

    Sonesta, I agree with you and have done that on a couple of occasions. But I have lots of babies out there competing now. Most of the owners are not members of the AHHA. So, I'd have to pay $110 for each horse I entered into the award program ($25 for program and $85 for membership). Then I'd have to rely on the riders to submit all their scores in time. I just can't do it.
    Maryanne Nicpon
    Minglewood Sport Horses
    Ballston Spa, NY



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun. 4, 2001
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    4,196

    Default

    Smart move on AHS.
    "Sometimes you just have to shut up and color."


    1 members found this post helpful.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan. 29, 2000
    Location
    Brownsburg, VA
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    2,948

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ponygirl View Post
    Smart move on AHS.
    I agree.
    "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec. 9, 2008
    Location
    Maryland USA
    Posts
    1,194

    Default

    It sounds like a good deal, but I am curious. Do the recipients of the free year membership return for additional years? Or does the free year get unnoticed like so many free memberships that I get every year.

    What as a rider would you find important with a membership to a breed registy?

    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com



  14. #14
    Join Date
    May. 9, 2001
    Posts
    2,499

    Default

    I wanted to transfer my aged Norwegian Fjord's ownership, but the seller did not send her papers and went radio silent after the mare was shipped to me. I don't mind paying the fees, as the buyer, since I thought it would be fun to show for breed awards. It turns out the mare is not fond of the arena, so I haven't pursued it. The mare is 19; maybe if she were younger and/or liked showing I would put more effort to get the transfer.

    My Trakehner is registered, but I don't have the proper chain of ownership documented for transfer. The horse was abandoned at age 22 by his owner of record, and I don't think an agister's lien, internet ad, email correspondence, and photos will meet the transfer requirements. He will be 26 next year.

    As a rider, I love and am proud of my horses and want to be affiliated with their registries. It would be nice to have the option for breed awards, too. I completely understand the transfer requirements being the responsibility of the buyer, but it's disappointing when you've got an uncooperative seller.

    Interestingly, I tracked down the breeders of both horses. The Trakehner's breeder had only a vague memory of his dam, but the Fjord's breeder remembered my mare's dam fondly and was happy to hear she found a good home.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr. 27, 2008
    Posts
    2,322

    Default

    I just bought a Fjord (Where is the heart smilie?!), and the owner paid for the transfer. When I received the papers, the association included a note telling me I was responsible to transfer ownership should I sell him. (Over my dead body!)

    So with the NFHR, the seller is supposed to pay for the transfer.
    I have a Fjord! Life With Oden



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan. 2, 2006
    Location
    Colorado
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    2,189

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TrakHack View Post
    My Trakehner is registered, but I don't have the proper chain of ownership documented for transfer. The horse was abandoned at age 22 by his owner of record, and I don't think an agister's lien, internet ad, email correspondence, and photos will meet the transfer requirements. He will be 26 next year.
    I think it is probably a bit late in the day for you, but the rules changed this year in the ATA and have become more flexible to reflect situations such as yours.



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Sep. 20, 2002
    Location
    Hannover, Germany
    Posts
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    Interestingly: in Germany you do not need to do any transfer of ownership with the registry, unless you want to breed the mare or use stand the stallion.
    You have to be member of registry and mare has to be activated in year of breeding so that the breeding is registered and foal papers will be issued.
    If the mare is "just" a riding horse the registry is not interested at all. And a horse is only registered with them in the sense of "weissued papers for horse with lifenumber 123456789". The do not have a name in their database until the mare is inspectedor stallion licensed. Mare never presented, stallion never presented - no name in the registry.
    I am not responsible for spelling misstacks - just my PC
    www.hannoveranerzuechter.de
    Filly Londontime - Sandro Hit - Rouletto
    http://youtu.be/1O23BeiKpkY


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  18. #18
    Join Date
    May. 28, 2003
    Location
    NOVA
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    859

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    Quote Originally Posted by RyTimMick View Post
    It sounds like a good deal, but I am curious. Do the recipients of the free year membership return for additional years? Or does the free year get unnoticed like so many free memberships that I get every year. What as a rider would you find important with a membership to a breed registy?
    This AHS membership benefit that accompanies ownership transfers is new this year. We don't have any statistics on the stickiness of such memberships yet. But from a marketing perspective, I'm not sure the AHS could find a better "target" for its marketing/advertising dollars than someone who just bought one of their registered horses.
    "That is why you have a pony..." - Edgewood, 2011



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Apr. 12, 2006
    Location
    Seville, FL
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    703

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonesta View Post
    Maryanne, the only way to make sure that they get transferred and registered for year end awards is if you do it yourself as the seller. Seems these awards are more important to us breeders than the owners. So, I always do it.

    I do this as well, I do the transfers myself. Luckily my registry-of-choice also keeps the fees very reasonable for transfers. If it's a foal I do the USEF registration as well -- it is cheap for foals, and insures the information is correct.

    It's surprising how many people don't bother with transferring ownership -- or they don't bother until they are ready to sell the horse themselves, and are struck with the realization they're not even the recorded owner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Molly Malone
    I am actually surprised that stallion owners don't include registration in the semen contract ie that the stallion owner will pay for registration. You'd think it would benefit the stallion owner to have registered foals, but I've never seen it offered.
    I can't speak for all stallion owners, but the registration fees are so high for some registries, and there is so much pressure on stallion owners to keep their fees low to stay competitive, paying for registration could really chip away at the bottom line, so I can see why many/most stallion owners don't offer. Although I agree it's a good idea! I pay for foals by my stallion to be registered, but again, my registry-of-choice is very reasonable about fees.

    -Gigha
    River Oaks Farm - home of the Elite Book Friesian Sporthorse Grand Prix dressage stallion Lexington - sire of four consecutive FSA National Inspection Champions. Endorsing the FSA.



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