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  1. #81
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    My first thumbs down. Wow. I'm usually pretty non-controversial. Reviewing the post to see what triggered it. Could it be one of the card happy officials? Or maybe someone on here loves polygamy, hates Yvonne, is from Brazil or disfavors democracy. Or maybe HRH has joined the forum.



  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCRider View Post
    My first thumbs down.
    You're in good company. I got one for this post:

    I do hope people speak up about this at the meeting. I also hope COTH revisits this with some actual journalism.

    We deserve real answers.
    I'd love to hear an explanation for what's 'BAD' about asking for discussion and answers. Better yet, I'd love for the poster who thinks this is 'BAD' to identify themselves and explain their thinking.



    3 members found this post helpful.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blugal View Post
    Some CICs in Europe are run over one day, without stabling. Try that in North America!
    See, that would help us amateurs! It would make it an easier pill to swallow as when I have to show up on Tuesday to a CCI event for in-barns when I don't compete until Friday if I didn't have to take any time off for a CIC.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  4. #84
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    And another thumbs down. So exciting. I would love to know who it is. And which of
    1) card happy officials
    2) polygamy
    3) democracy
    4) Yvonne
    5) Brazil
    6) HRH

    is triggering the thumbs down. Perhaps I could separate them into 6 separate posts and my thumbsdowner could let me know? It's someone who is currently logged on. Hit me with another thumbs down if you want me to do that, OK?


    3 members found this post helpful.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahbaumgardner View Post

    Another Amateur, without a big checkbook.
    I think that everyone should add this to their signature lines. I see a campaign here - bumper stickers, t shirts! Be heard.
    The truth is what you can get other people to believe.

    -- Tommy Smothers


    2 members found this post helpful.

  6. #86
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    John has an interesting write up on EN now. Not much more info than we have now, except this interesting paragraph:

    "Another change is that the new qualifications are good for life, rather than having a time limit. According to Roger Haller, if you are an uncategorized rider the qualification rules are the same except that you have to qualify horse and rider together...which is a big change."

    I don't know who Roger Haller is, but he's not right. There is an addition of some kind of CIC/CCI* requirement (unclear still due to not knowing what CI denotes in the PDF) and an addition CIC3* or CCI3* required for CCI4*. That's not that different, but it's also NOT the same.

    Now, the biggest news for me is that the new qualifications have no time limit. If that is indeed true, it helps allay a LOT of my fears. It means I can continue on a leisurely pace to qualify for a CCI4* by doing only two FEI events a year, which helps the time and money factor by spreading it out. I won't have to worry about an expiration date.

    My next question is if there is no longer an expiration date, does that mean that FEI MERs obtained in 2012 and earlier no longer have an expiration date? Or will my CIC2* MER obtained in 2011 expire in 2014 while my CIC2* hopefully obtained in 2013 lasts on until eternity? Do my CIC* and CCI* MERs from 2009 and 2010 come back into play? It's all with the same horse/rider combination....



  7. #87
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    Roger Haller is a former ULR (70s/80s) and designs upper level courses, such as the 1996 Olympics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Comedy View Post
    My next question is if there is no longer an expiration date, does that mean that FEI MERs obtained in 2012 and earlier no longer have an expiration date? Or will my CIC2* MER obtained in 2011 expire in 2014 while my CIC2* hopefully obtained in 2013 lasts on until eternity? Do my CIC* and CCI* MERs from 2009 and 2010 come back into play? It's all with the same horse/rider combination....
    I'd like to know this too.
    Blugal

    You never know what kind of obsessive compulsive crazy person you are until another person imitates your behaviour at a three-day. --Gry2Yng



  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blugal View Post
    Part of it is proximity of competitors, officials, and judges to venue. And a large volunteer base too.

    Some CICs in Europe are run over one day, without stabling. Try that in North America!

    They didn't do it in one day but at Plantation HT this year, they did run it without requiring stabling. That cut the cost down quite a bit for the local crowd. I wonder if this is the solution though. Can we perhaps push the FEI on some of the officials needed to hold an FEI event or at least a CIC to make it easier to hold and more affordable?

    I wonder if there is any room in that area....
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  9. #89
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    Stabling can add up, but that isn't the primary problem.

    Looking strictly at actual entry fees for Galway Downs 2013 event (the first one I found posted for 2013):

    CIC*** $555
    CIC* and CIC** $375

    How are other countries running FEI events for $100? Sponsors? Government Funding?

    To further compare, the FEI entry fee vs the equivalent Horse Trials entry fee at the same show:

    FEI CIC*** $555 vs $305 (Advanced Horse Trials)
    FEI CIC** $375 vs $275 (Intermediate Horse Trials)

    I have yet to figure out how the FEI CIC events are different enough from the horse trials to warrant the difference in entry fees. Since its inception, I have seen nothing in the CIC format that makes a rider safer or more qualified to advance to the next level, than a horse trials at the same level.
    Last edited by SevenDogs; Dec. 6, 2012 at 05:40 PM.


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  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    I do hope people speak up about this at the meeting. I also hope COTH revisits this with some actual journalism.
    The Eventing Tehnical Committee meeting is"open"in the sense that outsiders are allowed in the room to listen. For the most part, though, only the members of the Techncal Committee are allowed to spealk. The rest of us are expected to be "seen and not heard"
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


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  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by yellowbritches View Post
    My coach and I were discussing this last night. He also mentioned that it is much cheaper to compete/hold events in the UK and Europe and was wondering what the key was. My guess was lottery funding...but I could have been way, way off!
    Part of it is that you need to have "foreign" officials. The travel costs are a lot less when a "foreign" country is next door.

    Also, I have been told (not sure if it is still true) that the officials in Europe are typically not paid for officiating.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  12. #92
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    I have several pages of notes. I will try to turn them into something comprehensible.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


    2 members found this post helpful.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janet View Post
    I have several pages of notes. I will try to turn them into something comprehensible.
    Janet, our hero! Can't wait to read your notes, comprehensible or not! Thank you!



  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by SevenDogs View Post
    I have yet to figure out how the FEI CIC events are different enough from the horse trials to warrant the difference in entry fees. Since its inception, I have seen nothing in the CIC format that makes a rider safer or more qualified to advance to the next level, than a horse trials at the same level.
    As Janet has detailed, the cost of officials shipped in from exotic locales can add to the entry fee.

    But, you're right. For all the fuss, a CIC is still a HORSE TRIAL, and commonly differs very little from the non-CIC horse trial. Conquering an extra "C" element on xc does not really make you all that better prepared (certainly not $100+ better prepared..!) than the regular HT.

    But, it "proves" that you can complete a horse trial with a sound horse under the FEI rules of no medication.

    In theory, some countries' horse trials may not be up to par or run under rules similar to the FEI. In the US, the USEF bends over backwards to matchy-match everything with the FEI (aside from drug rules), so our national shows are not much different from FEI-- as in fence heights, course lengths, course design, rule changes, etc. One thing that IS different at US horse trials: no dressage coefficient...making the sport much simpler and easier to score. (Again...is that a $100 difference?!)
    “A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it.”
    ? Albert Einstein

    ~AJ~


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  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janet View Post
    I have several pages of notes. I will try to turn them into something comprehensible.
    OK, here are my notes. Not sure how comprehensible (or accurate) they are.

    FEI Qualifications at Eventing Technical Committee

    First, though it came at the end of the meeting, it turns out that John Long (Head of USEF) has sent a letter to the FEI officially asking that the rules be delayed by a year for the “uncategorized” riders. Also, the Eventing technical Committee has put together a subcommittee to address the US impact: Phillip, John, Gina, Margie (representing organizers), Derek, Mark.

    The FEI’s overall premise is that “only FEI events count as qualifications for FEI events”.
    I don’t know if it has been documented yet, but there is apparently an agreement that, for 2013 (transition year) a certain number (number not yet determined) of CNCs (National Horse Trials) will be allowed to “count” as FEI qualifying competitions. The only constraint is that the HT (run as a normal USEF /USEA HT, with USEF drug rules and USEF dressage coefficient) must use an FEI licensed TD.

    This was generally considered a good idea, but there was considerable consternation that our new season starts in 3 weeks, and the specifics have not yet been nailed down. There is an FEI call at 1 AM ,so everything is still in flux.


    There was also some concern: if two HT both offer Advanced, in the same geographic area and within a few weeks of each other, and one of them gets named as one of these FEI-counting HT, and the other doesn’t, the one that doesn’t get named may lose a lot of entries to the one that is named.

    The rules as currently written, SOMETIMES, but not always, allow a 20 penalty point XC round to count for qualifying. There was a consensus that it was very confusing (especially since the 20 pt result would count for ‘qualifying”, but not for “categorization”), and that, even though it was designed to “help” people qualify, it would be better to get rid of it.

    There will be a “categorized rider” list (the ones who do not need to qualify “as a pair” when they get a new horse) ,and an “uncategorized rider” (the rest) list. The lists will be published once a year, and you will stay on the same list all year. So, if you meet the qualifications of a “categorized” rider in the middle of the year, it won’t matter until the next year.

    They recognized that a lot of very experienced riders won’t be “categorized”, and that it doesn’t make sense for a 4* rider with a new 4* horse to have to start from the 1* level “together”. That will probably changed, but they will have to do SOME qualification as a pair. They have not decided how far back they need to go as a pair.

    Any time the rules talk about a 50 pt dressage score, they are talking about a USEF HT, not an FEI event (I think this wording maybe in a proposal the committee members had, not what is currently published).

    For becoming “categorized”, the 8 year window is a rolling window, not separate 8 year intervals. The 8 years is because the FEI has detailed records going back 8 years, not further.
    Last time the FEI changed the qualification rules, the US requested that anyone who was qualified on Dec 31 would remain qualified for the transition year. They are going to ask for the same thing again, but no guarantees FEI will agree.

    I am sure I have missed some important points, and probably misunderstood some things I did capture, but this is what I understood.
    Last edited by Janet; Dec. 6, 2012 at 11:06 PM.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  16. #96
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    I have a couple questions.

    First, does the u.s. have no FEI officials? We have some? Right? I am trying to understand why our CCI is 800, theirs, so much less. Perhaps we need to educate some of our officials to the DEI level?

    Why cant we have one day CIC's? No stabling required? Is this just a money maker?

    For a national event, we have to have a td, judge, course designer. The judge usually avts as ground jury president. Etc. can we not double up duties for fei events? I remember seeing several FEI where they listed one person, multiple jobs.

    What did everyone think of what is going on at the convention? I was a bit concerned that there was an opinion, that if you were wanting to be on a team. You were there, if you werent....you get the idea. We are very interested in high goals, and had we been able, would have loved to be there. I am hoping this isnt a sentiment shared by anyone other then a few people!

    Loved Davids thoughts on Dressage. Will be interesting to see if it changes dressage, at the national level.
    May the sun shine on you daily, and your worries be gone with the wind.
    www.mmceventing.com



  17. #97
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    Janet, you are da bomb. Thanks for keeping us masses in the know.

    On the edge of my seat until the next update (and something representative of a final word).

    Waiting for the coup . . .
    "Drawing on my fine command of the English language, I said nothing" - Robert Benchley
    Cotton would fight.
    http://buildingthegrove.blogspot.com/



  18. #98
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    Thanks Janet, that's helpful. So CNC stuff is really only for 2013.

    EN reported that qualifications would not expire. Was that for categorized rider purposes only, or for everyone?

    I think I'm more confused now than I was before the "explanation."



  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Comedy View Post
    Thanks Janet, that's helpful. So CNC stuff is really only for 2013.
    At leastfor now.

    EN reported that qualifications would not expire. Was that for categorized rider purposes only, or for everyone?
    I don't know.

    What I think I heard (didn't write it down) was the old qualifications don't expire, but ONE qualifying result has to be within the last year.

    OK I'm more confused now than I was before the "explanation."
    Join the club. Ithink even people on the Technical Committee are confused.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janet View Post
    What I think I heard (didn't write it down) was the old qualifications don't expire, but ONE qualifying result has to be within the last year.
    If that turns out to be the case, that's both good and bad news. A year sometimes can be tight if there's an injury. On the other hand, it looks like the pair wouldn't have to climb ALL the way back up the ladder again.



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