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  1. #61
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    Perhaps I am being a tad paranoid here, but this reeks of creating a further divide between the masses.

    The established FEI riders with a long string of horses (and owners with $$$) will be grandfathered in based on their MERs.

    The little people that are really trying to make it up the levels with one or two "started from scratch" mounts will end up in a continuous loop of expiring qualifications. Seriously, how many non-fulltime riders can spare the time away from work and the expense of racking up that number of shows? Even here in Area II there is no way I could get to more than 2 FEI shows a year (if I could even afford it)

    Added on top of the recent "no non-sanctioned competitions for FEI riders" hubbub, it certainly gives the appearance of segregating out the little guys.

    Unless the FEI can quote specific studies with regard to horse and/or rider injuries based specifically on being under qualified for the level, than this is nothing more than elitism and money hunger.
    "Drawing on my fine command of the English language, I said nothing" - Robert Benchley
    Cotton would fight.
    http://buildingthegrove.blogspot.com/


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  2. #62
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    I share the concern about this change in qualifications imposing greater barriers to entry at the upper levels.

    Eventing Nation quotes Malcolm Hook of the U.S. Eventing Technical Committee saying the Committee is generally in favor of the rule change. If someone is in Colorado and has the opportunity to ask during the open forum, suspect many of us will be curious as to reasons for their support of the change in qualifications, and the problem they view the change as solving.


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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summies182 View Post
    OK that is confusing! I already have a CCI* so was hoping to use that for a CIC*. I don't think I could do a CIC*, CIC** and a CCI** this spring way too much missing class and finances!
    If I'm reading it correctly, I think you don't have to do a CIC* if you have already completed a CCI*. In the actually document they list the qualifications for a CIC** as "NF requirements + 1 CI 1*". I don't know exactly what a "CI 1*" is but I'm pretty sure it is not a typo as in other places they use CIC and CCI not problem. I think it is an abbreviation that allows any type of 1* to qualify you for a CIC**. I might be wrong but although I believe the FEI to often be misguided, I don't believe they are malicious. Since a CCI* is supposed to be harder than a CIC*, I think the "CI 1*" abbreviation can allow for both. I'm waiting for clarification after the convention before I completely throw a fuss or change my spring plans.
    Hanlon's Razor

    Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.



  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Comedy View Post
    To put this in perspective you used to need the following FEI qualifiers at bare minimum to run a CCI4*:

    1 CIC2*
    1 CCI2*
    1 CIC3*
    1 CCI3*

    So four total.

    Under the new rules, you need:

    1 CIC1*
    2 CIC2*
    1 CCI2*
    2 CIC3*
    1 CCI3*

    So now seven total.

    You've almost doubled the number of events needed. That's extremely significant, and will certainly slow down the qualification process.
    So it looks like the FEI is simply requiring more CIC competitions.



  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by GotSpots View Post
    Eventing Nation quotes Malcolm Hook of the U.S. Eventing Technical Committee saying the Committee is generally in favor of the rule change.
    EN is taking that information from a report in COTH: FEI Approves New Eventing Qualifications for 2013.

    I do hope people speak up about this at the meeting. I also hope COTH revisits this with some actual journalism.

    We deserve real answers.


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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tootsie View Post
    If I'm reading it correctly, I think you don't have to do a CIC* if you have already completed a CCI*. In the actually document they list the qualifications for a CIC** as "NF requirements + 1 CI 1*". I don't know exactly what a "CI 1*" is but I'm pretty sure it is not a typo as in other places they use CIC and CCI not problem. I think it is an abbreviation that allows any type of 1* to qualify you for a CIC**. I might be wrong but although I believe the FEI to often be misguided, I don't believe they are malicious. Since a CCI* is supposed to be harder than a CIC*, I think the "CI 1*" abbreviation can allow for both. I'm waiting for clarification after the convention before I completely throw a fuss or change my spring plans.
    You may very well be right. I did not notice that before. Certain clarifications may need to be made, but this would help things.

    It would mean the shortest path to four star would be:

    1 CCI1*
    1 CIC2*
    1 CCI2*
    2 CIC3*
    1 CCI3*

    So six shows now instead of four. This is more doable than seven, but still can be problematic with expirations. You can do either two CIC3* and one CCI3* or one CIC3* and two CCI3*. I have two CIC3* and one CCI3* written down because a CIC is less wear and tear on the horse.

    What I'd really like to see is a way to re-establish yourself at the CIC level, similar to what they have at the CCI level. That or an extension of the expiration.

    But if what Tootsie says turns out to be correct, the only change is the addition of a CIC/CCI* requirement and the addition of an extra CIC/CCI3* before a CCI4*. Basically, you can either do one CCI* on the way up, or you can do a CIC* and an extra CIC2*.
    Last edited by Divine Comedy; Dec. 5, 2012 at 11:44 AM. Reason: Made a mistake in my qualifications summary.


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  7. #67
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    I guess I don't really have an issue with the qualifications, it just means that more of the horse trails in my schedule with be replaced with CIC's at all the levels rather then doing the extra CIC's in addition to the horse trials. I'm more upset that they gave us absolutely no "grace period" before the rules are to go into effect. For example, I finished the year with my advanced horse qualified for Rolex 2013. But with the addition of the second CIC ***, we are now not qualified which we could have easily done in the fall had I been aware of the coming change. It's the lack of time between the announcement and when it goes into effect.


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  8. #68
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    So for those of you who find no issue with having to do more CICs etc. then I assume you are not concerned with yours costs?

    CIC/CCIs are almost more than double the cost to run a competition due to the number of officials required. That gets passed to the competitors as a large cost of entries. Therein goes to what was AMCEventing's point. Many capable amateurs become excluded completely as the result of time and costs.

    I suspect as a result of the rules, there will be a reduction in the overall available CICs/CCIs in the US as the result of diminished amateur involvement and increased costs to the organizers.



  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAyers View Post
    So for those of you who find no issue with having to do more CICs etc. then I assume you are not concerned with yours costs?

    CIC/CCIs are almost more than double the cost to run a competition due to the number of officials required. That gets passed to the competitors as a large cost of entries. Therein goes to what was AMCEventing's point. Many capable amateurs become excluded completely as the result of time and costs.

    I suspect as a result of the rules, there will be a reduction in the overall available CICs/CCIs in the US as the result of diminished amateur involvement and increased costs to the organizers.
    I don't see anyone who's unconcerned with having to run more CICs....I know I am. I broke the bank doing a CIC* a couple of years ago (Why I thought that was a good idea, I'll never know), and NEEDING to more FEI sanctioned events to move along the levels is leaving me shell shocked. And it is obvious I'm not alone. It is expensive and time consuming.

    On top of that, I will have to worry about things like passports sooner, which means less time to save and more time scrambling to get all the expenses covered.

    DC, yes, they need to leave more time for QRs to stay valid. Good to slow the process down a little (maybe), but they need to make it attainable, too. Of course, it IS the FEI.

    FML.


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  10. #70
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    What this means is, simply, if you aren't part of the elite, have a source of funding, you are going to be s.o.l. Getting anywhere. Sigh. This is about as clear as mud really, and we still havent answered what the letters mean, because it seems you have to competed at so many FEi events to be eligible to move up....and its not seven!
    May the sun shine on you daily, and your worries be gone with the wind.
    www.mmceventing.com



  11. #71
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    This doesn't just affect amateurs who are on a budget. A lot of younger professionals are footing part or all of their own entries. So this will be yet another financial challenge to our this group.


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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by gold2012 View Post
    What this means is, simply, if you aren't part of the elite, have a source of funding, you are going to be s.o.l. Getting anywhere. Sigh. This is about as clear as mud really, and we still havent answered what the letters mean, because it seems you have to competed at so many FEi events to be eligible to move up....and its not seven!
    The letters only apply to basically professionals who ride so many horses at the FEI levels that they can qualify those. The letters allow a four star rider to buy a four star horse and not have to start at the one star level.

    Us one horse wonders still have to climb the levels and it can be done in six FEI events, as I enumerated above. Well, six plus Rolex, lol. It currently only requires four to qualify for Rolex, which does seem skimpy when I say it out loud, but one must take into account that there are NF requirements as well.


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  13. #73
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    I think that in Europe the fei competitions are very cheap to do CICs, around a hundred dollars or so, not like here where it is around $700 for CICs and $850 for CCIs. So in Europe it is a lot easier to ride in the fei competitions, since they are a dime a dozen (and they don't have to drive far.) The closest event is 10 hours away for me...fun fun...interesting qualifications now, glad i have most of mine, need one more cic *** to qualify for Galway in the fall.
    Last edited by three_dayer; Dec. 5, 2012 at 09:14 PM. Reason: Just changing wording


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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by three_dayer View Post
    I think that in Europe the fei competitions are very cheap to do CICs, around a hundred dollars or so, not like here where it is around $700 for CICs and $850 for CCIs. So in Europe it is a lot easier to ride in the fei competitions, since they are a dime a dozen (and they don't have to drive far.) The closest event is 10 hours away for me...fun fun...interesting qualifications now, glad i have most of mine, need one more cic *** to qualify for Galway in the fall.
    My coach and I were discussing this last night. He also mentioned that it is much cheaper to compete/hold events in the UK and Europe and was wondering what the key was. My guess was lottery funding...but I could have been way, way off!



  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
    This doesn't just affect amateurs who are on a budget. A lot of younger professionals are footing part or all of their own entries. So this will be yet another financial challenge to our this group.
    You are correct, I didn't mean to exclude that group.

    And call me sappy, but this will affect the fans as well. Those of us that, during our own struggles to progress, enjoy cheering on a local rider as they make it to the top will be disappointed when the expense of these changes hits home.

    More than the cost of entry, it's the time and cost of travel. A 4 hour trip to Aiken is fine, but taking my little bumper pull 9 hours to Fair Hill? Yikes.

    The Carolina Horse Park used to hold *'d events during the Southern Pines Horse Trials. Maybe they can bring that back.
    "Drawing on my fine command of the English language, I said nothing" - Robert Benchley
    Cotton would fight.
    http://buildingthegrove.blogspot.com/


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  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACMEeventing View Post
    You are correct, I didn't mean to exclude that group.

    And call me sappy, but this will affect the fans as well. Those of us that, during our own struggles to progress, enjoy cheering on a local rider as they make it to the top will be disappointed when the expense of these changes hits home.

    More than the cost of entry, it's the time and cost of travel. A 4 hour trip to Aiken is fine, but taking my little bumper pull 9 hours to Fair Hill? Yikes.

    The Carolina Horse Park used to hold *'d events during the Southern Pines Horse Trials. Maybe they can bring that back.
    After pondering the expense of doing FEI events, I am really thinking about just foregoing them altogether, and working at intermediate and moving up to advanced. I am not aiming for Rolex. I just had this strong desire to get to the Fair Hill CCI** before retiring. But if I don't do that, it is not the end of the world. My time and finances are limited, and in the end, it is the joy of running a challenging xc course that is most dear to my heart. I don't need the FEI to do that.

    Another Amateur, without a big checkbook.


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  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
    My time and finances are limited, and in the end, it is the joy of running a challenging xc course that is most dear to my heart. I don't need the FEI to do that.

    Another Amateur, without a big checkbook.
    You are an inspiration.

    I am tempted to go on the other thread (yours?) about goals for 2013 and add "Organize a coup to overthrow the FEI and replace it with Reed". I will, of course, be the beverage emissary.
    "Drawing on my fine command of the English language, I said nothing" - Robert Benchley
    Cotton would fight.
    http://buildingthegrove.blogspot.com/


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  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACMEeventing View Post
    You are an inspiration.

    I am tempted to go on the other thread (yours?) about goals for 2013 and add "Organize a coup to overthrow the FEI and replace it with Reed". I will, of course, be the beverage emissary.
    bahaha! And you must know how old I am too BTW, regarding beverages, I prefer Single Malt Scotch, straight up with a tall glass of water on the side.



  19. #79
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    If *'d events are so much cheaper in Europe. Then perhaps we need to explore how to make them more available and affordable here.

    Perhaps the FEI can contribute to that (ha, not likely). But the USEA and USEF can perhaps look into more. Maybe we need our own lottery.....
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  20. #80
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    Part of it is proximity of competitors, officials, and judges to venue. And a large volunteer base too.

    Some CICs in Europe are run over one day, without stabling. Try that in North America!
    Blugal

    You never know what kind of obsessive compulsive crazy person you are until another person imitates your behaviour at a three-day. --Gry2Yng



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