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  1. #41
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    I believe that the rider qualification part of the new rule is meant to keep amature riders from buying a 4star horse and competeing it at that level, when they have no business doing so, which is understandable.
    The rest? I don't understand.



  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by skydy View Post
    I believe that the rider qualification part of the new rule is meant to keep amature riders from buying a 4star horse and competeing it at that level, when they have no business doing so, which is understandable.
    The rest? I don't understand.
    So we want to keep Peter Barry out of FEI Events? He has no business competing at that level?

    Given that the "old" rules seemed pretty good at making sure competent riders were competing, what was so significant to make such a change you allude too.

    As I remember, Karen O'Connor bought a 4* horse, ran it at a 4* show and did not do so well. Guess that is okay because shes a "professional".

    Now if your thought was "We, the FEI, want to just exclude the amateur from the sport"...now you'd be on to something. A "hey we need to protect the Ammies" argument really does not hold water.

    As JER pointed out, there is nothing to indicate a need for such change and while it would be great for any equestrian publication or media source to do some digging and get answers to some basic questions, the prevailing winds indicate a "Don't worry, be happy" stance.


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  3. #43
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    I think they were pointing the rider rule at people who are not accomplished riders , perhaps those who would not be safe, having never ridden at ,say the 2* level who decide to buy an advanced horse and start at the top.( I am guessing).
    The way the rules are written however may very well cause a lot of problems for people who are perfectly well qualified.
    The "hey this is about horse welfare" is completely disingenuous in my opinion, especially as the excuse given for preventing FEI competitors from competing at non-FEI events. Bunk!



  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by skydy View Post
    I believe that the rider qualification part of the new rule is meant to keep amature riders from buying a 4star horse and competeing it at that level, when they have no business doing so, which is understandable.
    The rest? I don't understand.
    I don't see how this has anything to do with professional vs amateur. It does have everything to do with experience and safety. I do not think that someone who has never run a 4* should go out and purchase a 4* horse and compete it at that level, without running first at a lower level. Just like I don't think a person who has run a 4* should go out and buy a 2* horse and run a 4*, without running first at a lower level.



  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
    I don't see how this has anything to do with professional vs amateur. It does have everything to do with experience and safety. I do not think that someone who has never run a 4* should go out and purchase a 4* horse and compete it at that level, without running first at a lower level. Just like I don't think a person who has run a 4* should go out and buy a 2* horse and run a 4*, without running first at a lower level.
    It doesn't. Perhaps my post was poorly worded.

    However the amateur seems to be the focus of the FEI at this point in time. As convoluted as the new rules are, I don't know whether they would prevent your second scenario from happening or not...



  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by skydy View Post
    I think they were pointing the rider rule at people who are not accomplished riders , perhaps those who would not be safe, having never ridden at ,say the 2* level who decide to buy an advanced horse and start at the top.( I am guessing).
    The way the rules are written however may very well cause a lot of problems for people who are perfectly well qualified.
    The "hey this is about horse welfare" is completely disingenuous in my opinion, especially as the excuse given for preventing FEI competitors from competing at non-FEI events. Bunk!
    This could never have happened before. The rider has to be qualified for each level starting at Prelim and above. If a rider is not qualified for Prelim, even if they buy a four star horse, they would be able to start no higher than Training. If they have run a 2* but no higher, they would be able to run no higher than 2* immediately, and I know they would even have to run at least one Intermediate with the new horse before running a two star. (The rules gurus can verify or refute this, I'm not digging through the rules right now.) A rider could definitely never buy a four star horse and run it above the level at which they are qualified right off the bat. The rider would only be able to use the horse to continue their qualifications until they reached four star. The protection from this practice was already in place; it's just even stronger now. And stronger means more expensive and time consuming.


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  7. #47
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    There seemed to be a lot of concern regarding the abilities of some of the "non traditional eventing nation's" riders in the Olympics and at the Pan Am games.

    Perhaps this barrage of rule revising is an attempt to assuage those concerns?
    I don't know, like most folks I'm just trying to wrap my brain around the actions of the FEI., which, now that I've said that, I realise is an excercise in futility..



  8. #48
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    This is going to be an expensive, sucky thing.

    But, in some ways I can see it being a good thing....kinda. Looking at it from where I stand (riding a quality horse with a lot of talent, trying to make it consistently into the ULs) I have now gone from not needing to even think FEI until I was ready to do a CIC** (though, I wanted to do a CCI*), and now realizing I MUST do a CIC* if I want to do that first CIC**. It also means I still don't HAVE to do a CCI*, but I can and at least it won't be a (complete) waste of money.

    Expensive? Hell yes. I may have to think about some ways to make some consistent extra cash this coming year to save for FEI related expenses. Time consuming? Again, hell yes. While I have a wee bit more leeway in my schedule than others, I don't have a ton, and will probably have to do some serious fancy footwork to keep the barn from imploding while I chase these qualifications.

    So, the small, kinda (very tarnished) silver lining? I think it will force people to slow down a little in their race to get to the top. With the way things stand before these changes, you could fling up the levels pretty quickly and easily, all the while scaring the pants off of everyone who watches you go. Too easy to just charge through a handful of prelims, do a couple of intermediates and a CIC**, then leave everyone breathless (and not in a good way) at a CCI**. I think these new qualifications will slow people down a little, which can ultimately be a good (if very expensive) thing.


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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Comedy View Post
    . The protection from this practice was already in place; it's just even stronger now. And stronger means more expensive and time consuming.
    Indeed!



  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by yellowbritches View Post
    This is going to be an expensive, sucky thing.

    But, in some ways I can see it being a good thing....kinda. Looking at it from where I stand (riding a quality horse with a lot of talent, trying to make it consistently into the ULs) I have now gone from not needing to even think FEI until I was ready to do a CIC** (though, I wanted to do a CCI*), and now realizing I MUST do a CIC* if I want to do that first CIC**. It also means I still don't HAVE to do a CCI*, but I can and at least it won't be a (complete) waste of money.

    Expensive? Hell yes. I may have to think about some ways to make some consistent extra cash this coming year to save for FEI related expenses. Time consuming? Again, hell yes. While I have a wee bit more leeway in my schedule than others, I don't have a ton, and will probably have to do some serious fancy footwork to keep the barn from imploding while I chase these qualifications.

    So, the small, kinda (very tarnished) silver lining? I think it will force people to slow down a little in their race to get to the top. With the way things stand before these changes, you could fling up the levels pretty quickly and easily, all the while scaring the pants off of everyone who watches you go. Too easy to just charge through a handful of prelims, do a couple of intermediates and a CIC**, then leave everyone breathless (and not in a good way) at a CCI**. I think these new qualifications will slow people down a little, which can ultimately be a good (if very expensive) thing.
    Amanda, I appreciate your sentiment but I am not sure this will make people slow down. A CIC* at one venue can easily be less challenging than a Prelim at another. You have to qualify for the CCI2* at intermediate and through a CIC**. Why do we now have to qualify for the 2* through a 1*? I am scrambling to find the 1* for next spring and realizing that it will be much more expensive, as I have to travel outside of the area. This means fewer more local events at intermediate and less prep for my ultimate CCI** goal. As an amateur on a limited budget, this just makes it all tougher to do, and does not present more training/prep opportunities for Mick or for me.



  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by yellowbritches View Post
    I think these new qualifications will slow people down a little, which can ultimately be a good (if very expensive) thing.
    I agree. However, the main issue I run into is by slowing the process down (not a bad thing opinion), you run into the issue of qualifications expiring after the two calendar years.

    Say you can only do two FEI events a year. I feel this is not an unreasonable schedule.

    Here's an example schedule:

    You move up to Prelim in 2013 and spend the year at Prelim. In the summer or fall you do a CIC*, and a CCI*.

    In 2014, you decide to move up to Intermediate. You do a CIC2* at the end of your spring season and a CCI2* in the fall. But now you're out of $$/vacation days for the year.

    In 2015, you move up to Advanced, and want to end the spring with a CIC3*. But oops! You need two CIC2* for that. So you run a CIC2* in the spring. In the fall, you get your CIC3*.

    Its 2016 now and your CIC* and CCI* is expired. You have a CIC2* and a CCI2* that will expire the following year, so you need to get everything you need with them in 2016. You still need another CIC3* and a CCI3* to run a CCI4*. Great, you run another CIC3* at the end of the spring season and a CCI3* at the end of the fall.

    In 2017, you have a CIC3* that will expire the following year and a CIC3* and CCI3* that are fine. Great, you go to your CCI4*.

    So, it's doable.

    The kicker is that you better not have an injury to your horse in those four years leading up to Rolex, or it's likely that some of your earned qualifications will expire. You also better get your MER at every single one of those competitions. Remember, you have limited time and $$ and can only afford to attend two FEI shows a year, regardless of whether you get your MER or not. (In this scenario, at least.)

    So you basically must have Plan A working for four years straight. And how often does Plan A ever actually work with horses?

    Now, if you get your CCI2* or CCI3*, according to the current rules (if I am reading them correctly), you are established at that CCI level. If that establishment expires, you can simply run two Intermediates or Advanceds (the rules state at the CNC level or higher, so I think this is right), and you are re-qualified to enter that CCI level again without getting all the FEI requirements. So if you lose your CCI2* establishment, run two Intermediates and enter another CCI2*. So not all is lost there.

    However, if you lose your establishment at a CIC level, it's gone and you have to completely requalify. For example, if you lose your CIC3* due to injury, life, etc, you must get two CIC2* to compete at a CIC3* again. But oh wait, you need a CIC1* to compete at a CIC2*, because if your CIC3* is expired, your CIC2* and CIC1* are definitely expired. So you could have a horse who has gotten a CIC3* MER, has an injury and is off for a while, and have to bring him back at the CIC1* level. Start all over, basically. How does that sound? I would prefer to see something better for re-establishing 'establishment' at CIC levels.

    I would also feel a lot better about these qualifications if they would allow the MERs to not expire for three calendar years afterwards instead of only two.


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  12. #52
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    Ann, I think part of the issue is there was no warning the qualifications would change. If you had known, you probably would have tried to run a CIC* and maybe a CIC2* in your area last year in preparation for riding at the CIC2*/CCI2* level this year. Now you're left scrambling to fit a CIC*, two CIC2*, and a CCI2* into your schedule. If you'd had time to prepare for the change, you would have been able to find shows in your area that fit in your schedule last year.

    So I agree with yellowbritches, ultimately it will slow down the qualification process, which might be a good thing for safety I suppose, but I fear it may slow the path so much that only professionals can make it work.

    EN is reporting that the USEF has asked for a delay to the changes until 2014. I would dearly love this to be true, as it would give us all a year to prepare, and give us all a bit of breathing room. It would solve your problem, Ann, you would still only need a CIC2* and CCI2* this year.

    I'm not going to bet on it, though. Not sure USEF has the influence to change the FEI without the help of a few other countries. Preferably the European ones.


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  13. #53
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    Can you exchange a CCI* for a CIC*? I really don't want to have to run a CIC* just to do a CIC**, which is now needed for a CCI**. I am an amateur too and in school so it is very hard for me to make it to FEI events...



  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Comedy View Post
    Ann, I think part of the issue is there was no warning the qualifications would change. If you had known, you probably would have tried to run a CIC* and maybe a CIC2* in your area last year in preparation for riding at the CIC2*/CCI2* level this year. Now you're left scrambling to fit a CIC*, two CIC2*, and a CCI2* into your schedule. If you'd had time to prepare for the change, you would have been able to find shows in your area that fit in your schedule last year.

    So I agree with yellowbritches, ultimately it will slow down the qualification process, which might be a good thing for safety I suppose, but I fear it may slow the path so much that only professionals can make it work.

    EN is reporting that the USEF has asked for a delay to the changes until 2014. I would dearly love this to be true, as it would give us all a year to prepare, and give us all a bit of breathing room. It would solve your problem, Ann, you would still only need a CIC2* and CCI2* this year.

    I'm not going to bet on it, though. Not sure USEF has the influence to change the FEI without the help of a few other countries. Preferably the European ones.
    DC, you are so right. I would have run a 1* in 2011, for sure. And I am crossing digits that they will decide to institute the new rules in 2014. That would be awesome! And your calculations for what is needed to get to Rolex are mind-boggling. I am definitely NOT Rolex bound. I just dream of Fair Hil CCI**.



  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summies182 View Post
    Can you exchange a CCI* for a CIC*? I really don't want to have to run a CIC* just to do a CIC**, which is now needed for a CCI**. I am an amateur too and in school so it is very hard for me to make it to FEI events...
    As far as I read it, you must have a CIC* to do a CIC2*. So no, unless there is some obscure rule that I'm not aware of. I don't believe there is, though.

    You don't need a CCI* at all. So run a CIC* instead of at CCI*.

    If you run a CCI*, you can get away with only running one CIC2* before a CCI2*. However, you must have two CIC2* to run a CIC3*. So the least amount of FEI events to run for qualification purposes would be a CIC1*, two CIC2*, a CCI2*, two CIC3*, a CCI3* before CCI4*. If you use a CCI1* for your CCI2*, you would need a CIC1*, CCI1*, two CIC2*, a CCI2*, two CIC3*, a CCI3* for a four star. Running a CCI1* adds an additional FEI event to the total.



  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
    And your calculations for what is needed to get to Rolex are mind-boggling.
    I think entirely too much.



  17. #57
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    OK that is confusing! I already have a CCI* so was hoping to use that for a CIC*. I don't think I could do a CIC*, CIC** and a CCI** this spring way too much missing class and finances!



  18. #58
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    Reading your posts, I have an even greater appreciation for how difficult qualifying is going to be for many people. The schedule is tight even if EVERYTHING goes according to plan. Heaven forbid your horse develops an abscess leading up to one of the precious FEI competitions.

    As I said earlier, if you're in Britain or the EU, you just reroute to another FEI event the week after or so. If you're almost anywhere else, you're out of luck unless you travel a great distance (and are lucky enough to manage a late entry).

    I can't imagine what riders in countries where FEI events are few and far between can do besides immigrate.
    They don't call me frugal for nothing.
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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summies182 View Post
    OK that is confusing! I already have a CCI* so was hoping to use that for a CIC*. I don't think I could do a CIC*, CIC** and a CCI** this spring way too much missing class and finances!
    This is why the FEI should give us a year to prepare for the changes.Most people who are aiming for a CIC2* or CCI2* this spring do not have a CIC1* because it was previously unnecessary.



  20. #60
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    To put this in perspective you used to need the following FEI qualifiers at bare minimum to run a CCI4*:

    1 CIC2*
    1 CCI2*
    1 CIC3*
    1 CCI3*

    So four total.

    Under the new rules, you need:

    1 CIC1*
    2 CIC2*
    1 CCI2*
    2 CIC3*
    1 CCI3*

    So now seven total.

    You've almost doubled the number of events needed. That's extremely significant, and will certainly slow down the qualification process.


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